<3 Ghostcrawler

[Nerraw]

To take his tweet literally, they don't care about majority arguments and yet they routinely use them to support their design decisions.

They don't care about our majority arguments. Why? We don't have the statistics or collective feedback from 10 million people. They do. If they say that this or that is best for the majority, it's because they have the statistics to prove it. And they don't need to justify themselves to anyone but themselves. It's not a democracy, it's a company that's out to make money.

[Azrile]

That's Blizzard trump card; their "numbers" always prove them to be right about a game design choice. Sadly, we never get to see those "numbers", or if they even exist.

You do get to see their numbers.. it is directly related to the changes made to the game. You want proof that the biggest reason players left in Cata was for 2 reasons? 1. How easy heroic dungeons are in MoP 2. How many daily quests and solo activities there are in MoP.

You know why the devs are continuing to add daily quests in each patch? Because despite the vocal minority, most players ENJOY having daily quests. The devs react to data, not to crying.

[Mad_Murdock]

If even one person did not heal (such as myself who tanked) then it is false. That's how absolute statements work.

GC's statment was
In vanillla, hybrids could only heal (except warriors, who were special snowflakes). (

I didn't read that has Absolutely, not a single hybrid, every played anything but healer. The general message and what the whole MMO thread was about, is that if you were in a real raiding guild, and a Hybrid, odds were pretty much that you healed. If you were the exception to the rule that's great, but looking at the discussion at hand about Hybrids and their roles. I still don't see how that statement is consider grossly off.

It's nice to see that this arguement has come full circle. Anyways, the fact that your friends only know 12 year old horde players just shows your friends hang out with 12 year olds a lot. It doesn't make it fact unless your friends know the age of every horde player out there.

It's the internet and I understand that sarcasm and examples can sometimes be missed. In the context of who I quoted. I'm giving you an example of why when I say "The majority" versus when Blizzard says "The majority" there is a difference. My Majority is very skewed and most likely very limited compared to the massive amount of information and data Blizzard has. So when Blizzard says "The majority" it's probably 95% more accurate information than any player's use of "The majority"

[Aceshigh]

The thing that amazes me about the people who cry for the firing of GC and every dev who wasn't part of Vanilla/TBC is that they somehow believe that these people blatantly ignore what is best for their game just because some people ask for it. These players actually believe that the devs (Ghostcrawler in particular) have no idea what people want and they are completely willing to ignore everything and sabotage their own game. That is absolutely mind-blowing to me.

[Shaley]

The thing that amazes me about the people who cry for the firing of GC and every dev who wasn't part of Vanilla/TBC is that they somehow believe that these people blatantly ignore what is best for their game just because some people ask for it. These players actually believe that the devs (Ghostcrawler in particular) have no idea what people want and they are completely willing to ignore everything and sabotage their own game. That is absolutely mind-blowing to me.

I think mind-blowing is an accurate way of putting it!

[Azrile]

I don't know what the majority of players want but that isn't really the point. He can't turn around and say majority arguments are bad when he uses them all the time.

He doesn´t mean ´majority´.. what he is mocking is the people who say ´my friends and I, and everyone else all agree´.. the people he is responding to use that term ´majority´ and use the small sample size of people they know. that is what he is talking about here. My guess is when he uses himself, he is going by data Blizzard has collected across all players.

[jello72]

..."majority" means his ego...

[Deleted]

They don't care about our majority arguments. Why? We don't have the statistics or collective feedback from 10 million people. They do. If they say that this or that is best for the majority, it's because they have the statistics to prove it. And they don't need to justify themselves to anyone but themselves. It's not a democracy, it's a company that's out to make money.

He didnt say they follow "our majority arguements" whatever they are he suggesting they justify design policies based on what they think the majority want. Needless to say this isnt always a good long term strategy to follow.

[Vampurity]

Can't stand the guy personally. His position lets him cherry-pick the dumbest arguments to hack down to avoid having to answer for his terrible design decisions, and only ever he admits he was wrong when the time comes to promote a new expansion that will fix everything. The sooner he gets replaced, the better.

THIS. Completely agree.

[Nerraw]

He didnt say they follow "our majority arguements" whatever they are he suggesting they justify design policies based on what they think the majority want. Needless to say this isnt always a good long term strategy to follow.

Oh, they do make mistakes. And they know it. I'm pretty sure they admit design mistakes a couple of times per week on average. But as I touched on in one of my previous posts, as long as their intentions are good it'll be fixed in due time. Nobody is flawless, least of all Blizzard. But no one ever learned without making mitakes. It's part of life.

---------- Post added 2013-01-06 at 12:42 AM ----------

THIS. Completely agree.

Again, Twitter has a character limit that's rather low. He doesn't pick the complicated questions simply because he doesn't have the space to give an adequate reply.

And before you get to mention it, he did try the forum thing. The haters managed to get that shut down pretty quickly.

[Flatspriest]

...he should goes retire...all palas says this...or get fired imo...scientist church is not good...well

scientist church will bless ya ..before deal with people he should deal with his own desk...

Scientist, not Scientologist. Nothing to do with religion so leave it out of it please.

[tsunny]

Scientist, not Scientologist. Nothing to do with religion so leave it out of it please.

Don't get baited by that troll. Or... he is either incredibly dim witted. In either case, just ignore him like everyone else has done in this thread.


In regards to this argument about the "majority"... we don't get to make this argument because we lack data to back it up. Blizzard has all the data, and even if they don't use it, they can still say that their decisions are based off this data. The fact that the data is available to them means that it ISN'T hypocritical for them to be using the majority argument, despite how truthful it may be. Honestly, it seems like people are just looking for reasons to hate. Everyone seems to think that they are so much better at balancing shit than blizzard is, and that blizzard is somehow ruining their own game... if you step back and look at how you came to this belief, then you might just realize how wrong such a notion is.

[Leonard McCoy]

Oh, you really don't get it, do you?
When a player user the argument "the majority agrees with me", it's made up and not a strong argument.

The developers look at the feedback they get and make design decisions based on what the majority of the feedback says.
They don't make a decision and than say that's what the majority wants.
They first check what the majority wants and than make the decision!

And in either case the majority argument wins. Very rarely do people on forums come out and simple say I WANT THIS AND THE MAJORITY AGREES. What they usually say is that my friends don't like somethign, I don't like it and lots of people on the forum don't like it. That may not be a majority but it does show a trend, a significant enough trend that you can make a case a sizeable chunk don't like whatever it is that their currently bitching about. That is more or less what the developers do anyway. They just call it "Overwhelming feedback" or some other name.

The simple fact is that Ghostcrawler can't say they aren't interested in majority arguments when they clearly are and they use them all the time themselves. It makes them look like hypocrits and it's disigenous in the extreme. They are of course interested in majority arguments because if the majority doesn't like a system they implement they will move to correct or change it.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I love how people want this guy fired. You guys are....arrogant to say the least.

[Woceip]

Again that isn't the point. Ghostcrawler can't turn around and say majority arguments are bad but at the same time use majority arguments to justify design decisions. "Overwhelming feedback" is a majority argument they routinely use in favor of whatever design decision they think is best. Just because players don't have ALL the data doesn't mean that Ghostcrawler has licence to be a hypocrit.

The problem you and so many others don't seem to understand: To players, overwhelming feedback is them and thirty of their friends. To Blizz, overwhelming feedback is the actions of thousands/tens of thousands.

There is no hypocrisy in that.

[Mammoth]

I think it is a great tweet and I fully support it. Adding, "everyone knows" to your opinion, or "everyone wants" to your request, serves no purpose. Just say your opinion and don't invoke claims of representing the majority.

I for one value the straight talking approach GC uses on twitter. Being carefully handled by a PR department results in boring and unproductive conversations.

[Arbs]

I fucking love Ghostcrawler's tweets.

Ghoscrawler trolls the trolls, its amazing. You see how arrogant people are and shows you how demanding they are. I give Ghostcrawler props.
I would of tweaked by now.

[Lighto73]

If even one person did not heal (such as myself who tanked) then it is false. That's how absolute statements work.

In all honesty, if you are going to get messed up on his wording, which I'm sure he knows is wrong, then you are just being childish and wanting to argue about something. Obviously not EVERY single hybrid was forced to heal, but speaking as someone who played a druid in MC and didn't want to heal but was not very viable for me to go Balance which was horrid at that time, I can say that his statement was pretty accurate and while he shouldn't have said all, he was making a generalization on twitter.....

---------- Post added 2013-01-05 at 08:11 PM ----------

And in either case the majority argument wins. Very rarely do people on forums come out and simple say I WANT THIS AND THE MAJORITY AGREES. What they usually say is that my friends don't like somethign, I don't like it and lots of people on the forum don't like it. That may not be a majority but it does show a trend, a significant enough trend that you can make a case a sizeable chunk don't like whatever it is that their currently bitching about. That is more or less what the developers do anyway. They just call it "Overwhelming feedback" or some other name.

The simple fact is that Ghostcrawler can't say they aren't interested in majority arguments when they clearly are and they use them all the time themselves. It makes them look like hypocrits and it's disigenous in the extreme. They are of course interested in majority arguments because if the majority doesn't like a system they implement they will move to correct or change it.

Yeah. I don't mean to use "overwhelming" to mean a super majority or anything. Usually it just means a lot of strong feedback. -Ghostcrawler

There, will that shut you up about using the term "overwhelming feedback" in everything you've posted in this thread?

[Nerraw]

https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...22940995366912

[Cybran]

https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...22940995366912

https://twitter.com/Sielydine/status/287733367074611200

What should i say next?