Thread: <3 Ghostcrawler

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  1. #161
    Deleted
    This is just my opinion, but bramling like that in twitter is unappropriate in relation to position he has in company. It's _good_ he communicates with players, but the twitter thing is just too much. Im amazed they havent told him to stop that.

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    Ghostcrawler =/= Warcraft. He needs to know that he is hurting a game/franchize many of us have loved for over a decade. He needs to go, not us.
    Considering He came into WoW and helped become the the biggest it had ever been, then listened to the majority and made it all hard again for the vast majority who had it rather easy for 2 years prior and watched fall some. I don't think he is hurting it. Making it more accessible to many and still difficult at the top ends is the best thing that could happen. And the start of Cata when they made a big change in difficulty and watched people leave over it is why we will never lose flying.

  3. #163
    The people who sign the checks at Blizz think GC is good enough to keep paying him. That's the long and short of it.
    I am the one who knocks ... because I need your permission to enter.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Mall Security View Post







    The problem simply comes back to a lack of response on Blizzard part in an effective way which doesn't consist of sarcasim or out and out right disrespect, personally I have always noticed it, but recently others have become to realise this also.



    But the point is GC being snide and disrespectful is over the line, we are not at his whims mercy or dependent on him or the developers per say, of course ME and Others can simply GO play something else, but I like many others probably feel a bit vested and interested in what is to come.

    He is really only that way to the DBs that are trolling him or being rude themselves. If you can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen. I'm sorry, if I was in the public like him being harassed daily but idiots, for the most part, I wouldn't let them off the hook either. I work with customers daily. If I don't treat them correctly I lose business. However, I call crap when I see it and let them know. I have called customers out on the carpet when they are flat out lying to get extra services at no cost. It has cost me some customers, but the ones who stayed understand where I come from and don't try it again.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-06 at 08:33 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    Because he ruined them, same as he is doing with WoW. he came around late 2008 and the first thing he did was TotC. He and the blind fanboys need to quit before they ruin the game.
    And another "majority" argument. :P What sources might you have that shows he or his decisions ruined Ensemble?

  5. #165
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    I'm sure the fast majority don't really care. I'm talking about those who don't usually use the forums or Twitter.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Mall Security View Post
    That is right I choose to pay 15$, and to any business the bottom line is what the customer spends, you are right i am entitled to be treated respectfully and to hold certain expectations. You seem to think because Blizzard is a Billion Dollar Company they make games and do us all a favor, and that grants them special privilage. I assure you it doesn't I do have a vested interest in what i have but in, and I think it is reasonable for anybody who has put in 15$ a month to do that very thing, and when the Lead Developer decides to get smart mouthed and decides to spout off on twitter in a very disrespectful way, I think it is more than prudent for paying customers to say " Wait a minute, whether GC liked or disliked someones question" he always has the choice aswell to answer in a tactful way or simply ignore it and move on.


    Entitled brats feel they are owed something for nothing, a prudent consumer is someone who pays for something and demands to have the merchant be accountable for their product/
    Then by your rules Blizzard is doing fine and not declining. Subs go down and profits go up. Sounds like a good deal with WoW.

  7. #167
    Void Lord Doctor Amadeus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    He still has a job.
    Proof enough?
    No. recent events and the decline of over all sales do to the neglect and bad attitudes towards the player base really has come full circle as of this last year, and whether they will fire GC over it is a call they make, and it might be a symptom of the over all problem that cost them in the end.

    The guys who pay his paycheck continue paying him, it's as simple as that.
    And players pay his bosses so that they can in turn pay him.


    Ahum? You claimed that they were losing subs because of this behaviour.
    And saying "Google!" isn't a decent argument anywhere.
    No i referenced the over all attitude, you asserted that i just meant specifically and only GC, and I provided 2 links to pretty popular gaming review and technology sites. I am not going to literally do all the work because you refuse to do that yourself.


    "It's fundamental logic" isn't a strong argument either, it's almost as bad as "Google!".
    No its a basic element for debate and making an arguement which you have failed to do on both counts.

    If you treat shitty customers in a "bad" way (Yes, "bad", because the stuff he is saying is hardly offensive) that can either have a good effect or a bad effect.
    Seeing as the PR/marketing-department is allowing him to do this, that means that people who actually studied this shit think it's a good idea.
    So in that light I am not even going to bother listening to some random forum-user who thinks he knows everything about businesses.
    These statements are full of assumptions, shitty customers who in your judgement feel deserve to be treated badly. Sounds a bit like making a personal problem everybodies problem and fostering contempt and the very counter productive atmosphere many from the Development team complain about.



    There ya go, what?
    That hardly has anything to do with the subject we are discussing.
    First of all, we are talking about people leaving WoW because GC is acting sarcastic towards trolls.
    Secondly, there are three other reasons why WoW lost subs in that article.
    Third, they are above the 10 million again while the "trolling the trolls" is still continuing.


    Yes, that does give them the privilege of being right as long as they have a successful company.

    The sucess you are suggesting, has nothing to do with privilage of the company, it comes from the customers and the over all population to endure or stick through it, which in about a month if we find those 10 million subs drop to about 9 million or more again. I guessing soon nobody will have a GC to complain about along with a few others.




    And my opinion is that would be the correct course of action, but it will more than likely be to little too late. For an event long enough coming.
    Last edited by Doctor Amadeus; 2013-01-06 at 09:14 PM.
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  8. #168
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korru View Post
    GC is more of a PR scapegoat than a developer don't you agree?
    He's certainly better at the former...
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerraw View Post
    They don't care about our majority arguments. Why? We don't have the statistics or collective feedback from 10 million people. They do. If they say that this or that is best for the majority, it's because they have the statistics to prove it. And they don't need to justify themselves to anyone but themselves. It's not a democracy, it's a company that's out to make money.
    The majority of people also hated black people and treated them as second class citizens. The majority isn't always right. Personally, Ghostcrawler is a short sighted dumbass and should have been fired after Cata's epic failure. The current iteration of MOP is downright horrendous.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerraw View Post
    My respect for this man grows every day.
    And mine shrinks.

    Twice he's made proposals to change L90 Mage talents, and both times they didn't make it into PTR but DID make it into the notes. He also continues to say that the L90 talents are an issue, but then goes and says "Mage mechanics are fine". I can't respect a hypocrite, a liar, and someone who just doesn't give a fuck :\
    Still wondering why I play this game.
    I'm a Rogue and I also made a spreadsheet for the Order Hall that is updated for BfA.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    And mine shrinks.

    Twice he's made proposals to change L90 Mage talents, and both times they didn't make it into PTR but DID make it into the notes. He also continues to say that the L90 talents are an issue, but then goes and says "Mage mechanics are fine". I can't respect a hypocrite, a liar, and someone who just doesn't give a fuck :\
    This guy mained a mage throughout WOTLK and most of cata. The class was OP as hell for the longest time. If anyone has "respect" for this guy they are completely clueless

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by TonyIommi View Post
    And in either case the majority argument wins. Very rarely do people on forums come out and simple say I WANT THIS AND THE MAJORITY AGREES. What they usually say is that my friends don't like somethign, I don't like it and lots of people on the forum don't like it. That may not be a majority but it does show a trend, a significant enough trend that you can make a case a sizeable chunk don't like whatever it is that their currently bitching about. That is more or less what the developers do anyway. They just call it "Overwhelming feedback" or some other name.

    The simple fact is that Ghostcrawler can't say they aren't interested in majority arguments when they clearly are and they use them all the time themselves. It makes them look like hypocrits and it's disigenous in the extreme. They are of course interested in majority arguments because if the majority doesn't like a system they implement they will move to correct or change it.
    Have to disagree there. You may not see "I want this and the majority agrees" but you almost hardly ever see "My friends and I, and lots of people from the forum." What he was referring to is "Everyone is sick of warrior mobility, it's clearly in need of a nerf." Well, not *everyone* is sick of it. Or "You are pidgeon-holing us and we feel that..." He's simply saying to refrain from terms like "the vast majority of..." "EVERYONE agrees..." "we ALL said this in Beta..." "Unanimous outcry" etc. etc.

    He's just asking us to formulate our feedback intelligently and not emotionally.

    "GC, everyone is tired of Frost Mage control and burst. It's a hard counter to everything. We all told you in Beta that Shatter combos were OP but you've just ignored us and let Frost be OP for an entire expac."

    ^ Meaningless feedback.

    "GC, I was wondering if you could take the time to address some of my concerns with Frost Mages. I PvP actively on 4 different toons, and in NONE of my arena teams are we able to handle frost mages. I saw some forum feedback in Beta about their burst being too high - do you agree or disagree? Any expected changes we can look forward to, or can I expect the class to ride until next expac?"

    ^ Essentially the same feedback, just more likely to be payed attention to and not ignored / downvoted into oblivion.

    All this talk of absolute statements, hypocrisy, and majority arguments are making my head hurt.

    Take a deep breath, it's going to be okay, I promise.

    Edit: I like the guy just fine, but I certainly don't praise him or hang on his every word. I don't agree with all of his design decisions, but I also understand and accept that HE's the dev, and I'm the player, and that's not likely to change. Yes, he and dev team make a lot of mistakes, but that doesn't make him an asshole, it makes him human.
    Last edited by Alteena; 2013-01-06 at 10:01 PM.

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by ihyln View Post
    The majority of people also hated black people and treated them as second class citizens. The majority isn't always right. Personally, Ghostcrawler is a short sighted dumbass and should have been fired after Cata's epic failure. The current iteration of MOP is downright horrendous.
    If you don't like it, turn away and do something you enjoy.

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    And mine shrinks.

    Twice he's made proposals to change L90 Mage talents, and both times they didn't make it into PTR but DID make it into the notes. He also continues to say that the L90 talents are an issue, but then goes and says "Mage mechanics are fine". I can't respect a hypocrite, a liar, and someone who just doesn't give a fuck :\
    And the biggest mistake anyone outside of the dev team can make is to assume that the world (of Warcraft) is somehow a static element. It is not. Things change. What was right yesterday may not be right today. Neither you nor I have the right to demand anything from them. What we do have the right to is to decide whether we want to pay or not. I don't know about you, but I for one would not hand out my money to people I don't trust. So it really comes down to the one thing. Do you trust Blizzard with your money, or do you not?

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Palmatum View Post
    I wouldn't want GC's job. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
    Haha, I actually sent GC a tweet about this. I'm happy he didn't respond and chose to respond to tweets with more substance.

    If we take current number of WoW subs to be between 8-10 million, then you have to understand the forums, twitter, and the people you communicate with in game are truly a small minority. You also have to trust that GC and Blizzard have access to much more data and feedback than we do. We see numbers on WoWProgress. They can directly access participation numbers from game logs.

    Just because I feel something is wrong or broken doesn't mean it is. And even if it is, it doesn't mean my change would be appropriate.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Wait, what?
    This is the FOURTH time you claimed that decline of sales is due to bad attitude towards players without providing any proof!
    Can you stop doing that? It's getting freaking annoying.
    There is no "bad attitude" towards players, it's against trolls and those trolls deserve it.

    And it the boss thinks that this will get more players to pay him, than he allows devs to do what they are doing.

    And that site had 4 reasons why subs might be dropping, none of them related to a bad attitude towards players.

    No, it's not.
    Maybe in elementary school, but in the grown-up world that's not an argument.

    Yes, dodge the arguments! Really mature of you.
    Your links have ZERO relevance to this topic, better luck next time.
    While I don't agree that Mr. Street being a D-bag is the reason for 2 million people leaving, I did want to address 2 things. First is that you are stating that everyone put down by Greg and the CM's is a troll. Every single one. Do I even need to go back and find a good batch of blue posts throwing away people with legitimate concerns put forward fairly well or do you just want to take it back now? Secondly, I wouldn't talk to other people about dodging arguments when you quite clearly dodged mine. Did I not have any good random sentences for you to fragment and put together and misquote me on or something?

  17. #177
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by TonyIommi View Post
    As much as I can appreciate and understand the sentiment, I would not like to see this twitter feed with GC go away. As much as I disagree with him I do enjoy the conversation and I know he appreciates the feedback. It's a good tool for them and I hope he continues to do it.
    tony you know that you and I usually don't agree and have differents pov on a lot of stuff, but when you say these things I just can't hate you <3

  18. #178
    Mechagnome kleinlax21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyIommi View Post
    Let's put this another way. If 4 million people quit the game tmmrw because they all feel Frost Mages are not balanced in the slightest will it not make the devs rethink what they consider balanced? I think at the very least we have to acknowledge that some MAJORITY FEEDBACK or mass movement within the game has an effect on the developers and their mindsets. Hard dungeons is another excellent example. They were changed because of majority feedback again.
    "Hard dungeons" is a very subjective topic where feedback differed from many players. Some liked the hard heroics, and others disliked them. Players left good feedback for both sides of the issue, and Blizzard looked at their internal numbers and decided it was for the good of the game to make heroics easier. Doubtlessly, there was at least one individual who quit the game because of this change.

    [Continuing the fictitious example]Frost Mage's position in PvP balance, however, isn't as subjective as the difficulty level of heroics. Either Mages are OP, UP, balanced, or somewhere else along that continuum. I don't think any number of players quitting due to Frost Mage balance in PvP would be cause for Blizzard to rethink their state in balance. As well, I am almost certain at least one individual has quit primarily due to Frost's position in PvP balance. I would argue that this individual's feedback overall has no bearing on whether or not Mages are balanced.

    Every day, somebody on the forums says Mages are OP, and everyday somebody says they are UP. The amount of players who side with either argument is irrelevant to the actual position of Frost in PvP.

    Sorry to rag on Mages so much, I just always see people languish for nerfs to Frost and I thought it would be a good example to use where Blizzard repeatedly ignores the "majority feedback" that Frost should be nerfed, arguably to the benefit of PvP balance and the game as a whole.

    Stuff like "my rotation isn't fun" is much more subject to opinionated and non-fact base feedback than something like the poignancy of a spec in PvP play.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-06 at 05:28 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    While I don't agree that Mr. Street being a D-bag is the reason for 2 million people leaving, I did want to address 2 things. First is that you are stating that everyone put down by Greg and the CM's is a troll. Every single one. Do I even need to go back and find a good batch of blue posts throwing away people with legitimate concerns put forward fairly well or do you just want to take it back now? Secondly, I wouldn't talk to other people about dodging arguments when you quite clearly dodged mine. Did I not have any good random sentences for you to fragment and put together and misquote me on or something?
    Quote Originally Posted by MordorFires View Post
    Just because I feel something is wrong or broken doesn't mean it is. And even if it is, it doesn't mean my change would be appropriate.
    Just because you leave good feedback doesn't entitle you to seeing the changes enacted that you proposed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZRebellion View Post
    Kleinlax21 who is on your 'side' had no problem doing so.He also doesn't need to attack me in literally every sentence he types.

  19. #179
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Wait, what?
    This is the FOURTH time you claimed that decline of sales is due to bad attitude towards players without providing any proof!
    Can you stop doing that? It's getting freaking annoying.
    There is no "bad attitude" towards players, it's against trolls and those trolls deserve it.


    And it the boss thinks that this will get more players to pay him, than he allows devs to do what they are doing.


    And that site had 4 reasons why subs might be dropping, none of them related to a bad attitude towards players.


    No, it's not.
    Maybe in elementary school, but in the grown-up world that's not an argument.


    Yes, dodge the arguments! Really mature of you.
    Your links have ZERO relevance to this topic, better luck next time.
    How does being rude to customers have anything but a negative effect?
    To suggest it will get more players to subscrible is ridiculous.

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by kleinlax21 View Post
    Just because you leave good feedback doesn't entitle you to seeing the changes enacted that you proposed.
    Perhaps you should go back and read my previous 2 comments and what I was responding to before lumping me in with that statement. Though I would argue that good feedback with a logical basis has no real reason to not be dealt with appropriately. If you would disagree with that statement then the WoW forums users would all be posting with their real names, Transmogrification would never exist, and warriors/hunters could still have the stars align and gcd their targets in pvp without issue. Not to mention many of the other balance changes and content that have been implemented. There are some things though that are picked and chosen seemingly at random or just merely dismissed that really shouldn't have any business being added or ignored, which is where all the intelligent dissatisfaction comes from. (see my previous posts in this thread for some examples)

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