Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst
1
2
  1. #21
    Warchief
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Nova Scotia
    Posts
    2,072
    I'd rather the new normal mode gear be something between 509 and 517 (fully upgraded 509 gear). Heroics are typically a full tier (13 iLvLs) ahead of it's normal mode counterpart and if normal mode was 509 we would only be getting 522 gear from heroic bosses. Not that 522 is low by any means, but it's only 5 levels higher than our current heroic gear.

  2. #22
    Judging from the past I would expect T15 normal gear to be ilv 515.

  3. #23
    The idea, as GC said, is to have upgrade vendors only active during the in-between raid patches, which sounds like a great idea and I'm all up for it, hopefully when they bring them back in 5.3 they can tune the required valor/conquest a bit, a week and a half per piece might be a bit too much when u got 16 slots.

    https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...47501517996033
    Our plan at this moment is upgrading only for patches without a new raid / PvP tier. That design could change.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaexion View Post
    The loss of the ability to pass on loot is the loss of the ability to choose. This is communism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aevra View Post
    It's a #$^&*@ fantasy game. You're a blue space goat riding around on flying serpents killing dragons the size of continents. And you're wondering why a gryphon doesn't look like an eagle?

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post
    The 502 gear is almost certainly the LFR gear. They have never brought out a new tier where the new normal mode gear is 7 ilevels below the previous tier heroic gear. Think about it - if they did that, it would force guilds to re-run T14 heroics for upgrades while waiting to get the new bosses down on heroic. It would also make upgraded 509 gear slightly beat T15 heroic gear. That makes 0 sense.
    While (upgraded) heroic gear should not be better or even equal to the basic heroic gear dropping from a higher tier for tuning reasons alone, the older tier's heroic items being better or equal to the newer tier's normal mode gear would be an interesting scenario that would keep the older heroic modes notably more relevant even bit further into the expansion. This is not to say that there wouldn't be problems or at least big questions, especially in regards of tuning (still) and item level pacing. I just don't find it an idea destined to be shot down immediately without consideration.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Keoren View Post
    While (upgraded) heroic gear should not be better or even equal to the basic heroic gear dropping from a higher tier for tuning reasons alone, the older tier's heroic items being better or equal to the newer tier's normal mode gear would be an interesting scenario that would keep the older heroic modes notably more relevant even bit further into the expansion. This is not to say that there wouldn't be problems, especially in regards of tuning and item level pacing. I just don't find it an idea destined to be shot down immediately without consideration.
    The new tier normal mode gear has always been at least 6 ilevels better than the heroic gear from the previous tier (special end bosses excluded). This has been something that has been in place since Ulduar. While that may sound nice to provide an additional progression path, it's actually a nightmare to deal with for guilds that have already been clearing the content.

    If the normal mode gear is the same ilevel as previous tier heroics, you are going to feel obligated to take time our of your raid schedule to go back and get (some of) that gear instead of spending your time working on the new content. That creates burn out, and creates pressure to raid more hours, add more off night raids, etc. If the gear is at or very close to the same ilevel, it will cause some previous tier stuff to be superior, like some trinkets and tier set bonuses. I don't think it's a good solution. If I have been playing the entire tier and have cleared it, I want to be able to not go back to that tier once a new patch is out. It's fine to gate content, and tune things so players that skipped the tier need to run it, but this would create a chance for a repeat of the Sinestra situation where the trinket was so strong that you felt obligated to clear BoT weekly through the end of T12.,

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-06 at 12:22 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Eskobar View Post
    The idea, as GC said, is to have upgrade vendors only active during the in-between raid patches, which sounds like a great idea and I'm all up for it, hopefully when they bring them back in 5.3 they can tune the required valor/conquest a bit, a week and a half per piece might be a bit too much when u got 16 slots.

    https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...47501517996033
    Our plan at this moment is upgrading only for patches without a new raid / PvP tier. That design could change.
    It's not necessarily clear that they are removing the vendors. They could leave the vendors in place and capable of upgrading pre-T15 gear, and just not have the upgrade option enabled on the new gear yet.

    I think the problem with getting rid of the upgrade system completely is that before this system, every tier, people tended to run out of things to do with VP very quickly, especially heroic raiders. Once there is nothing you can buy with VP, there is very little incentive to bother with capping it unless you really want the VP for offspec gear or to do VP to conquest conversion. That means the number of people running scenarios and heroics and LFR falls off, which means the quality of groups for those degrades with less and less raid geared people doing them, hurting the overall player experience. VP upgrades, like them or hate them, gives raiders a reason to always want to be capping VP, which then helps the overall activity level and quality of the LFD experience for everyone.

  6. #26
    Dreadlord Spellweaver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    961
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    I think I found the ilvl of new raid gear thanks to the... well the tyranical Gladiator gear that has been known forever.

    S12 ELITE weapon 490ilvl + 19 = 509
    S12 NORM weapon 470ilvl + 19 = 489
    S13 ELITE weapon 503ilvl + 19 = 522
    S13 NORM weapon 483ilvl + 19 = 502

    Ilvl from Normal - Heroic PvE is generally 13ilvls
    522-13 509Ilvl will be the Normal mode gear of 5.2 Inferior to 517 if you had 3k valor and been upgrading only heroic slots from start of 5.1 you will prolly have 1/3 of the items no upgraded and 509 is a huge boost to any single person raiding NORMAL mode T14.

    TLDR ~~ 509 is the Normal ilvl of 5.2 raids.

    http://www.wowhead.com/items=2.1
    The only problem with this, looking through the mmo-c database, is that there's items like this:

    http://www.wowdb.com/items/91130-tyr...iators-barrier (S13 Elite, iLvl 515)
    http://www.wowdb.com/items/91129-tyr...iators-barrier (S13 Normal, iLvl 502)

    With the rest being correct with the list in the quote (S13 Elite weapons being iLvl 503 etc.)

    This wasn't the case in S12, where an Elite shield/offhand was the same iLvl as an Elite weapon:

    http://www.wowdb.com/items/85125-mal...iators-barrier
    http://www.wowdb.com/items/85112-mal...ors-greatsword

    I think it's more likely that the iLvl of normal T15 will be 515.

    Looking back at the iLvl of tiers in WotLK:

    T7.25 iLvl 213
    T8.10 iLvl 219 (6 more than T7.25)
    T8.25 iLvl 226
    T9.10 iLvl 232 (6 more than T8.25)

    Now, at this point it changes slightly, most likely caused by the shift from 2 sets per tier (normal/hard mode) to 3 sets per tier (emblem/normal/heroic):

    T9.25 iLvl 245
    T9 Heroic iLvl 258
    T10 Emblem iLvl 251 (7 less than T9 Heroic, 6 more than T9.25, like the previous tiers, nowadays this set would probably be seen as the LFR tier)
    T10 Normal iLVl 264 (6 more than T9 Heroic)
    T10 Heroic iLvl 277

    T11 Normal iLvl 359
    T11 Heroic iLvl 372
    T12 Normal iLvl 378 (6 more than T11 Heroic)
    T12 Heroic iLvl 391
    T13 LFR iLvl 384 (7 less than T12 Heroic, just like T10 Emblem was 7 iLvls lower than T9 Heroic)
    T13 Normal iLvl 397 (6 more than T12 Heroic)
    T13 Heroic iLvl 410

    So looking back at that, and then comparing those increases in iLvls, it could be possible to look the same way for T15 and even T16:

    T14 LFR iLvl 483
    T14 Normal iLvl 496
    T14 Heroic iLvl 509
    T15 LFR iLvl 502
    T15 Normal iLvl 515
    T15 Heroic iLvl 528
    T16 LFR iLvl 521
    T16 Normal iLvl 534
    T16 Heroic iLvl 547

    Meaning an upgraded piece of T14 Heroic would be 2 iLvl higher than a piece of T15 Normal. So while it'd still be better, the difference would be minimal.
    Though that's without taking the set bonuses in consideration, which might even make T15 LFR better than an upgraded T14 Heroic. (I doubt that will happen, but it might make T15 Normal better than T14 Heroic)

    WoW: Zebrin | TERA: Rintha | GW2: Nezira Cinderclaw

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post
    While that may sound nice to provide an additional progression path, it's actually a nightmare to deal with for guilds that have already been clearing the content.
    I don't think that it's the best way of handling things either. However, I also don't think that the current model is without problems. Rather than making me think of a solution, this topic made me further question the design of some aspects.

    Should harder older (heroic) content be put to death once newer easier (normal) content becomes available?
    Should only the newest content be promoted? If not, who should still want to go back and why?
    How big a gear gap is really wanted for the higher-end heroic raiders when they first enter a new raid and face it undergeared? What about the raid groups coming after them?
    How exactly should the nerf in the form of upgraded items carry over to the new tier?
    If (when) the upgraded items carry over to the new tier, should it be taken into account in the tuning?

    One thing I'm concerned about is the tuning in 5.2. If the upgraded heroic items from this tier will be close to equal or even better than the normal items from the new tier, the initial difficulty of some heroic modes may end up far too low for the first groups to get their hands on them. It will also eat away potential longevity of the instance.

  8. #28
    Here's a more complete listing of the ilevel distinctions - you missed a few

    T7 - 10 man - 200
    T7 - 10 man elite bosses (KT, Sarth 3D, Malygos) - 213
    T7 - 25 man - 213
    T7 - 25 man elite bosses (KT, Sarth 3D, Malygos) - 226

    T8 - 10 man - 219
    T8 - 10 man Hard Modes - 226
    T8 - 25 man - 226
    T8 - 25 man weapons - 232
    T8 - 25 man Hard Modes - 239

    T9 - 10 man - 232
    T9 - 10 man heroic - 245
    T9 - 25 man - 245
    T9 - 25 man heroic - 258

    T10 - 10 man (the initial badge tier gear was 10 man NM quality) - 251
    T10 - 10 man Lich King weapons - 258
    T10 - 10 man heroic - 264
    T10 - 10 man Heroic Lich King Weapons - 271
    T10 - 25 man - 264
    T10 - 25 man Lich King Weapons - 271
    T10 - 25 man Heroic - 277
    T10 - 25 man Heroic Lich King Weapons - 284

    Halion 10 man normal - 258
    Halion 10 man heroic - 271
    Halion 25 man normal - 271
    Halion 25 man heroic - 284

    T11 Normal - 359
    T11 Heroic - 372
    Sinestra - 379

    T12 Normal - 378
    T12 Ragnaros - 384
    T12 Heroic - 391
    T12 Heroic Ragnaros - 397

    T13 LFR - 384
    T13 Normal - 397
    T13 Normal Spine/Madness - 403
    T13 Heroic - 410
    T13 Heroic Spine/Madness - 416

  9. #29
    Dreadlord Spellweaver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    961
    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post
    Numbers
    I'm gonna assume that was a reply to my post.

    I was only looking at the iLvls of the actual tier sets, hence the lack of specific iLvls 'tiers' like the ones off Madness, Spine, Ragnaros etc.

    WoW: Zebrin | TERA: Rintha | GW2: Nezira Cinderclaw

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Keoren View Post
    I don't think that it's the best way of handling things either. However, I also don't think that the current model is without problems. Rather than making me think of a solution, this topic made me further question the design of some aspects.

    Should harder older (heroic) content be put to death once newer easier (normal) content becomes available?
    Should only the newest content be promoted? If not, who should still want to go back and why?
    How big a gear gap is really wanted for the higher-end heroic raiders when they first enter a new raid and face it undergeared? What about the raid groups coming after them?
    How exactly should the nerf in the form of upgraded items carry over to the new tier?
    If (when) the upgraded items carry over to the new tier, should it be taken into account in the tuning?

    One thing I'm concerned about is the tuning in 5.2. If the upgraded heroic items from this tier will be close to equal or even better than the normal items from the new tier, the initial difficulty of some heroic modes may end up far too low for the first groups to get their hands on them. It will also eat away potential longevity of the instance.
    I don't think that guilds that cleared or mostly cleared the entire previous tier on heroic should feel they need to go back to the previous tier just because the ilevel distribution of loot makes it a competitive advantage to do so. I think that the biggest thing that made previous tiers completely obsolete in Wrath and Cata was the introduction of 5 man instances that dropped gear that was at the entry level required to start working on the new raid tier. That meant that everyone that was behind in gear or coming back was basically given "welfare epics" and the gear level needed to get right back into raiding with a couple of nights of 5 man farming.

    T15 will be the first tier that they are not adding new 5 mans since T8, so people will be forced to use T14 and other sources (rep gear, craftables, LFR) to gear up to T15 standards.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •