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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by RICH1471 View Post
    Why not take him prisoner?
    Why should I have to? This isn't war, I'm not a cop, I'm not a judge. The dude breaks into my house with bad intentions, he's lost his rights.
    Quote Originally Posted by Raybourne View Post
    I think I would save michal jordan's life. That guy was just such a great singer
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    I don't pay for food for anyone I'm not sleeping with and you shouldn't either.

  2. #122
    The Unstoppable Force RICH8472's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sicarus View Post
    Why should I have to? This isn't war, I'm not a cop, I'm not a judge. The dude breaks into my house with bad intentions, he's lost his rights.
    So you will just murder him? Yes, its murder if there is an alternative to killing and you ignored it.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by RICH1471 View Post
    So you will just murder him? Yes, its murder if there is an alternative to killing and you ignored it.
    crime of killing somebody:

    the crime of killing another person deliberately and not in self-defense or with any other extenuating circumstance recognized by lawsomething difficult or unpleasant: something that is very difficult or unpleasant and involves great effort or hardship
    kill somebody illegally: to kill another person deliberately and not in self-defense or with any other extenuating circumstance recognized by law


    No, it's not murder.

    It's his death for his choice to attack me, by breaking into my home.
    Quote Originally Posted by Raybourne View Post
    I think I would save michal jordan's life. That guy was just such a great singer
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    I don't pay for food for anyone I'm not sleeping with and you shouldn't either.

  4. #124
    The Unstoppable Force RICH8472's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sicarus View Post
    crime of killing somebody:

    the crime of killing another person deliberately and not in self-defense or with any other extenuating circumstance recognized by lawsomething difficult or unpleasant: something that is very difficult or unpleasant and involves great effort or hardship
    kill somebody illegally: to kill another person deliberately and not in self-defense or with any other extenuating circumstance recognized by law


    No, it's not murder.

    It's his death for his choice to attack me, by breaking into my home.
    Shooting first and not even trying to take him prisoner is the very definition of that, the rest of the civilised world agrees with me. It is only the USA that has such laws in the first world.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by RICH1471 View Post
    Shooting first and not even trying to take him prisoner is the very definition of that, the rest of the civilised world agrees with me. It is only the USA that has such laws in the first world.
    How is someone trying to rob you, and killing them, not self defense?

    Why would you want to take a criminal-suspect, prisoner?

    By the way, if you're going to pick apart a response, pick apart the whole thing.

    the crime of killing another person deliberately and not in self-defense or with any other extenuating circumstance recognized by law
    Here in Texas, we have the Castle Doctrine, if someone uses unlawful force on you, your home, place of business, or vehicle (even if it's not at home), they are extensions of your "castle" (home) and you are lawful in using the force to suppress the threat, which would include, taking their life.
    Quote Originally Posted by Raybourne View Post
    I think I would save michal jordan's life. That guy was just such a great singer
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    I don't pay for food for anyone I'm not sleeping with and you shouldn't either.

  6. #126
    The Unstoppable Force RICH8472's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sicarus View Post
    How is someone trying to rob you, and killing them, not self defense?

    Why would you want to take a criminal-suspect, prisoner?

    By the way, if you're going to pick apart a response, pick apart the whole thing.



    Here in Texas, we have the Castle Doctrine, if someone uses unlawful force on you, your home, place of business, or vehicle (even if it's not at home), they are extensions of your "castle" (home) and you are lawful in using the force to suppress the threat, which would include, taking their life.
    Exactly this, thievery is not the same as trying to murder you. A human life is not worth your material possessions.

    To answer your other question, I would take them prisoner so that I could hand them over until the police arrived.

  7. #127
    The Lightbringer MonsieuRoberts's Avatar
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  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Sicarus View Post
    Why should I have to? This isn't war, I'm not a cop, I'm not a judge. The dude breaks into my house with bad intentions, he's lost his rights.
    how do you know his intentions? even in court cases they have problems identifying the mens rea, how do you expect to divine his will instantly in a panic situation?

  9. #129
    Brewmaster Zeverin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sicarus View Post
    How is someone trying to rob you, and killing them, not self defense?

    Why would you want to take a criminal-suspect, prisoner?

    By the way, if you're going to pick apart a response, pick apart the whole thing.



    Here in Texas, we have the Castle Doctrine, if someone uses unlawful force on you, your home, place of business, or vehicle (even if it's not at home), they are extensions of your "castle" (home) and you are lawful in using the force to suppress the threat, which would include, taking their life.
    Judging by your speech, you are excluding using any degree of suppressing force, except the lethal one, like if that was the only option the Castle Doctrine gives to you.
    Ultimately, in your logic, entry in private property = death of suspect.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Raybourne View Post
    how do you know his intentions? even in court cases they have problems identifying the mens rea, how do you expect to divine his will instantly in a panic situation?
    That's exactly it, I don't know his intentions, however, he's in my house illegally, he has a crowbar, so he's going to die with that crowbar.
    Quote Originally Posted by Raybourne View Post
    I think I would save michal jordan's life. That guy was just such a great singer
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    I don't pay for food for anyone I'm not sleeping with and you shouldn't either.

  11. #131
    The Unstoppable Force RICH8472's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sicarus View Post
    That's exactly it, I don't know his intentions, however, he's in my house illegally, he has a crowbar, so he's going to die with that crowbar.
    Then be glad you live in Texas, in Europe you would be in prison for that act. What you are describing is just barbaric.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeverin View Post
    Judging by your speech, you are excluding using any degree of suppressing force, except the lethal one, like if that was the only option the Castle Doctrine gives to you.
    Ultimately, in your logic, entry in private property = death of suspect.
    :|

    Let me use the "taken out of context" card.
    Because you literally just did.
    If I were to say, walk into someone's store, which is private, and obviously I didn't just fucking kick the door down or have a crowbar in my hand, obviously I wouldn't shoot that person.

    And no, it's any force you deem necessary, if you want to pepper spray them, that's fine, if you want to forcibly shove their testicles back into their hips, you can do that, too.
    Key word being, UNLAWFUL.

    There I made it big so you can't possibly take me out of context again.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-06 at 08:54 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by RICH1471 View Post
    Then be glad you live in Texas, in Europe you would be in prison for that act. What you are describing is just barbaric.
    Him breaking into my house is barbaric, why are you defending a criminals decision to break into my home?

    I am glad I live in Texas, I'd never live anywhere else where I can't defend myself as I can.
    Quote Originally Posted by Raybourne View Post
    I think I would save michal jordan's life. That guy was just such a great singer
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    I don't pay for food for anyone I'm not sleeping with and you shouldn't either.

  13. #133
    The Unstoppable Force RICH8472's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sicarus View Post
    :|

    Let me use the "taken out of context" card.
    Because you literally just did.
    If I were to say, walk into someone's store, which is private, and obviously I didn't just fucking kick the door down or have a crowbar in my hand, obviously I wouldn't shoot that person.

    And no, it's any force you deem necessary, if you want to pepper spray them, that's fine, if you want to forcibly shove their testicles back into their hips, you can do that, too.
    Key word being, UNLAWFUL.

    There I made it big so you can't possibly take me out of context again.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-06 at 08:54 PM ----------



    Him breaking into my house is barbaric, why are you defending a criminals decision to break into my home?

    I am glad I live in Texas, I'd never live anywhere else where I can't defend myself as I can.
    We can defend ourselves too, but we don't shoot first and ask no questions later.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by RICH1471 View Post
    We can defend ourselves too, but we don't shoot first and ask no questions later.
    Me: Excuse me kind sir, why've you broken into my home?

    Them: Oh, I wouldn't possibly tell you, good sir.

    Me: Why not?

    Them: I'm a criminal, obviously you shouldn't know my intentions.

    Me: Ah, quite right, carry on, I'll just finish watching this progra- ahp well you've stolen my T.V. and it appears I've been stabbed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Raybourne View Post
    I think I would save michal jordan's life. That guy was just such a great singer
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    I don't pay for food for anyone I'm not sleeping with and you shouldn't either.

  15. #135
    The Unstoppable Force RICH8472's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sicarus View Post
    Me: Excuse me kind sir, why've you broken into my home?

    Them: Oh, I wouldn't possibly tell you, good sir.

    Me: Why not?

    Them: I'm a criminal, obviously you shouldn't know my intentions.

    Me: Ah, quite right, carry on, I'll just finish watching this progra- ahp well you've stolen my T.V. and it appears I've been stabbed.
    No, it would be me with a shotgun ordering him onto the ground. Police would then be called, criminal arrested and tea and medals all round. If he attacked me after a warning THEN I would shoot. Unlike you who shoots first like some cowboy.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by RICH1471 View Post
    No, it would be me with a shotgun ordering him onto the ground. Police would then be called, criminal arrested and tea and medals all round. If he attacked me after a warning THEN I would shoot. Unlike you who shoots first like some cowboy.
    Greedo didn't shoot first.

    This is a Han Solo situation, if I see the threat in my house, I'm not taking a chance, it's going to be eliminated before they can harm me/my family.

    This is entirely plausible in this case, the man went for them in the closet, do you think he was going to tell her that he was just going to grab a few bucks and walk out?
    Quote Originally Posted by Raybourne View Post
    I think I would save michal jordan's life. That guy was just such a great singer
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    I don't pay for food for anyone I'm not sleeping with and you shouldn't either.

  17. #137
    Brewmaster Xothic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sicarus View Post
    How is someone trying to rob you, and killing them, not self defense?

    Why would you want to take a criminal-suspect, prisoner?

    By the way, if you're going to pick apart a response, pick apart the whole thing.



    Here in Texas, we have the Castle Doctrine, if someone uses unlawful force on you, your home, place of business, or vehicle (even if it's not at home), they are extensions of your "castle" (home) and you are lawful in using the force to suppress the threat, which would include, taking their life.
    This line. This line sums up everything I find sickening in whatever you want to call it, American gun culture, whatever. I can't even being to describe how horrible a person you have to be to subscribe to this, which is why I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you arn't considering the far reaching implications of such a statement.
    Last edited by Xothic; 2013-01-07 at 03:17 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Asphyxes View Post
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  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Xothic View Post
    This line. This line sums up everything I find sickening in whatever you want to call it, American gun culture, whatever. I can't even being to describe how horrible a person you have to be to subscribe to this, which is why I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you arn't considering the far reaching implications of such a statement.
    So if a criminal breaks into your home, you'd hold him prisoner.

    How could the woman, hiding in her closet, hold the man with a crowbar, prisoner? If she hadn't shot, he'd've had the upper hand on her.
    Quote Originally Posted by Raybourne View Post
    I think I would save michal jordan's life. That guy was just such a great singer
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    I don't pay for food for anyone I'm not sleeping with and you shouldn't either.

  19. #139
    [/COLOR]
    Quote Originally Posted by Sicarus View Post
    How is someone trying to rob you, and killing them, not self defense?

    Why would you want to take a criminal-suspect, prisoner?

    By the way, if you're going to pick apart a response, pick apart the whole thing.



    Here in Texas, we have the Castle Doctrine, if someone uses unlawful force on you, your home, place of business, or vehicle (even if it's not at home), they are extensions of your "castle" (home) and you are lawful in using the force to suppress the threat, which would include, taking their life.
    Here's a couple of examples:

    The person who breaks into the house is mentally disabled. They are lost and scared and don't have the social skills to deal with the situation. They don't have the ability to empathize with the house owner or put themselves in their position, they don't know what they are doing is wrong.

    The person has epilepsy or is diabetic. They are wandering around in a confused state, they can't think/don't know what's happening or where they are and may be aggressive towards others but otherwise not particularly dangerous.

    In both of these scenarios you have just killed an innocent, sick person in need of help.

    But hey, you still have your watch, right?

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-07 at 11:46 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Maleficus View Post
    One might argue that he abandoned his respect for the "sanctity of life" when he forced his way in and tracked them down to the closet they were hiding in.

    Unless, of course, he was really looking for the pantry for that cup of sugar he needed for the creme brulee he was making. (No doubt for the neighborhood bake sale considering he was such an upstanding citizen.)

    Wow, some people.
    So here are a couple of questions:

    If Iran were to suddenly start executing people accused of breaking and entering, how would you react? Would you feel that it is a dire breach of Human Rights? Would you petition your government to do something to save these people?

    What if the US govt were to do the same thing, no trial, just execute anyone caught in someone else's home without permission.

    Because that is essentially what is happening here. There is no trial, no due process, no 'innocent until proven guilty', no judge, no jury of peers. You have one person, untrained in anything beyond aiming a gun, carrying out an execution order that they decided upon. A person who could be drunk, high, depressed, scared witless, or otherwise incapable of rational thought under pressure. That one irrational, flawed person is playing God, in some cases even saying God approved.

    How is this right?

    Let's take it one step further.

    How would you feel if it wasn't a burglar, but a US soldier who was killed. He walked into a civilian's home in another country and got shot down. By your arguments, this too is fine. It doesn't matter if the soldier was there to help or not, he was on their property. He was a 'threat', he deserved to die.
    Last edited by Sarojini; 2013-01-07 at 03:35 AM.

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Wikiy View Post
    Are you aware the US is the only developed country in the world whose citizens (well, a significant amount) are under the impression a developed country's government can turn tyrannical?
    Statements like this are just going to invite nation bashing. Coming from a moderator... disappointing.
    Last edited by Virtua; 2013-01-07 at 03:54 AM.

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