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  1. #21
    It's a shame you chose FF as an example since that was the map I was talking about.

    In the vlog they explained it really well. Due to the cap points being so close to each other mesmers can set a portal on GY and then run back in their base or to one of the other cap points.
    This means that you have to run with your entire group at all times otherwise you'll be fighting 5vs(<5) meaning that you will always lose.
    This also means that it's easy to deal with gate rushers since you're basically camping your defensive point anyway (or attacking their base)

  2. #22
    If only Anet would listen to the player base. It's been said since beta what needs to be done and I'm talking pre-open beta but they've added nothing to help the PvP scene at all.

    They keep saying they want an e-sport direction for the game but do nothing to help it go there other than say it's coming soon. Its been 5 months since release and now only like 10 actual teams remain to play tPvP and the others are just pugs going in to get gear.

    They need to remove the whole glory/QP grind system since it doe nothing for PvP and add in a rank/ladder system for players and teams if they want some competitive side to the game. They also need to make every profession viable since at the moment unless you play the meta setup for NA or EU you're at a disadvantage which is horrible for anyone who doesn't play Guardian/Ele/Necro/Mesmer/Thief.

  3. #23
    I am Murloc! Thelxi's Avatar
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    Esport is definitely out of the question at this point. Anyone paying close attention to Anet has noticed that they have very few people left actually working on monitoring and finishing the game. My guess is that they are happy with what they have for now, even though it is far too messy, random and unpolished for a serious esport direction.

  4. #24
    The Lightbringer Durzlla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    It's a shame you chose FF as an example since that was the map I was talking about.

    In the vlog they explained it really well. Due to the cap points being so close to each other mesmers can set a portal on GY and then run back in their base or to one of the other cap points.
    This means that you have to run with your entire group at all times otherwise you'll be fighting 5vs(<5) meaning that you will always lose.
    This also means that it's easy to deal with gate rushers since you're basically camping your defensive point anyway (or attacking their base)
    Yeah, but the thing is when i go to their base i can keep all 5 of them busy long enough for the portal to despawn, this makes it so my team can sweep the other points getting a 3 cap on them because they pulled back to deal with one guy, this puts us at a SIGNIFICANT advantage. I don't run the "meta" build (well didn't my team broke up a few months ago due to people transferring servers and not playing at the same times as each others due to RL stuff.), as i said, we ran with me as a tanky ranger who would push the gate solo, i don't think any other team has that, not to mention we had a support thief and a glass cannon guardian, an engi, and a tank warrior.
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Youre in the mmo forums and you find mmos boring, Im heading on over to the twilight forums to add my unecessary and shallow 2 cents.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Durzlla View Post
    Just throwing this out there, but Anet themselves have flat out said the character you're playing in sPvP (aka heart of the mists) IS NOT your character you play in PvE/WvW, you are "Generic <insert race here> <insert prof here>" who has passed away and is now reliving battles in the mists.
    Well yes, we know it's a design choice. The problem is that it's a bad design choice. Splitting the game into entirely separated modes means the modes are going to live and die by their own merits and as it happens the PvE/WvW mode is good enough to survive on its own but the sPvP/tPvP mode is not.

    If they hadn't entirely separated the modes, PvE would be keeping PvP afloat with PvErs providing a casual player base to keep PvP going (and remember, those hardcore players will come from whichever casuals fall for it hard). All it would take is letting PvP give you some gold, experience and gear skins (even if it would be for 80 players only, remember experience is useful in this game at max level).

    I can't help get the feeling that they were never serious at all about PvP in this game, that it was just a hype up lure that they would follow up if it happened to work. Everything about sPvP smells "done as cheap as possible, as fast as possible". Conquest point mode only? They've given a ton of rationalizations for that but none of them sound as convincing as the simple likelihood that they picked it because it's the cheap and easy way (just copy it from other MMOs, no development resources needed beyond drawing the maps and so on). Total separation of the PvP mode? Sounds like they wanted to normalize gear for PvP but normalizing it while integrating the mode with the rest of the game would take some resources. PvP rewards are just copies of PvE rewards so they get that for "free" at the same time. And so on.

    I really feel like the game dropped the ball on how much PvP was hyped up and how little resources seem to have actually been dedicated on it. Every hardcore PvPer that I know has been totally disappointed in GW2 while many PvErs that I know from other games who would LOVE the game the way it is are not even trying GW2 since after all the hype they believe it's mainly a hardcore PvP game.

  6. #26
    You're right jaakkeli, I think the reason for this is that anet under estimated how many people are into pve but not into pvp. So they quickly had to realocate resources (man power) to creating more contented which they didn't expect.

  7. #27
    The Lightbringer Durzlla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaakkeli View Post
    Well yes, we know it's a design choice. The problem is that it's a bad design choice. Splitting the game into entirely separated modes means the modes are going to live and die by their own merits and as it happens the PvE/WvW mode is good enough to survive on its own but the sPvP/tPvP mode is not.

    If they hadn't entirely separated the modes, PvE would be keeping PvP afloat with PvErs providing a casual player base to keep PvP going (and remember, those hardcore players will come from whichever casuals fall for it hard). All it would take is letting PvP give you some gold, experience and gear skins (even if it would be for 80 players only, remember experience is useful in this game at max level).

    I can't help get the feeling that they were never serious at all about PvP in this game, that it was just a hype up lure that they would follow up if it happened to work. Everything about sPvP smells "done as cheap as possible, as fast as possible". Conquest point mode only? They've given a ton of rationalizations for that but none of them sound as convincing as the simple likelihood that they picked it because it's the cheap and easy way (just copy it from other MMOs, no development resources needed beyond drawing the maps and so on). Total separation of the PvP mode? Sounds like they wanted to normalize gear for PvP but normalizing it while integrating the mode with the rest of the game would take some resources. PvP rewards are just copies of PvE rewards so they get that for "free" at the same time. And so on.

    I really feel like the game dropped the ball on how much PvP was hyped up and how little resources seem to have actually been dedicated on it. Every hardcore PvPer that I know has been totally disappointed in GW2 while many PvErs that I know from other games who would LOVE the game the way it is are not even trying GW2 since after all the hype they believe it's mainly a hardcore PvP game.
    Actually, GW2 PvP was really popular, the reason it died off was the more due to people not being able to play with people closer to their level rather than PvP and PvE players not being mixed together, because it's not so seperate that if you wanna PvP you can't PvE, it just means that you wont draw PvE people who want cool armor to the section. You'd just draw people that want to PvP.

    The fatal flaw with GW2 PvP was no match making, a lot of people enjoyed the actual PvP behind it, they just didn't enjoy going up against team legacy in tPvP, and other such things, get completely destroyed, and no longer wanna PvP. They say it in every state of the game thing, the new players don't have a place to start, they just get completely train wrecked and then they don't wanna play anymore so then there's no one left playing other than the good, or tenacious, players.

    It'd be like if you went into LoL and there's no matchmaking, and you constantly get thrown up against THE TOP teams, and there's nothing you can do about it. You'd just get wrecked, everytime, and i can guarantee you'd never wanna play that game again.

    Once they get the matchmaking system down i'm pretty sure more people will play again, you don't need rewards, games such as LoL, Smite, and other such mobas have proven that. Just because -you- want rewards and a way to show off how awesome you are in sPvP doesn't mean most people want that, most people that want to PvP just want to PvP, and they can show off how BA they are in PvP with the PvP skins they get access to.
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Youre in the mmo forums and you find mmos boring, Im heading on over to the twilight forums to add my unecessary and shallow 2 cents.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Durzlla View Post
    Actually, GW2 PvP was really popular,
    I don't share the feeling. A few weeks after the launch the mood among PvPers seemed to be disappointment in the lack of content.

    The fatal flaw with GW2 PvP was no match making, a lot of people enjoyed the actual PvP behind it,
    Lack of match making is indeed fatal but it's not the only fatal flaw in the game. The big problem is lack of investment in PvP content, there's ton of stuff to do in PvE but not in PvP. There's absolutely no community building PvP content. Everyone just queues for the zergy sPvP and never says a word to anyone else there. Sure, you can guild up and go play team PvP with voice comms and all, but where do the people come from for that? Where do you meet fellow PvPers to form those teams?

    Even a basic feature like dueling would help this but it just isn't there. Where did I meet most people I played with when I was playing WoW? Dueling outside Orgrimmar. Where have I met people in GW2 PvP? Well, there is actually WvW but that mode is entirely separated from sPvP! Everyone I started off with quit and now I have no one to play with and no mode of PvP that would build me a contact list. (A matchmaking system would probably help, though, as it would be a ton easier to form pugs of similar experience level.)

    Besides that, a fundamental problem is the conquest mode PvP system. It has never been popular with players in any MMO that I recall. It has no exciting moments and turns where a really good set of moves gives the team a point. When organized teams get into it it you always end up with extremely rigid tactics and games that repeat over and over again. The conquest point mode is popular with developers because it's cheap to just copy from other games and requires little development effort to balance it right but it's the route of producing functional but not particularily impressive content with minimal cost. That being the only way to PvP just isn't going to hold the game afloat.

    Once they get the matchmaking system down i'm pretty sure more people will play again, you don't need rewards, games such as LoL, Smite, and other such mobas have proven that.
    They have proven nothing for GW2. LoL is entirely free to play. They have tons of people just downloading the game and trying it out, they can draw in new people from those.

    GW2 sPvP is a mini game on top of a 50 euro game. Their potential recruit pool doesn't include just anyone who hears of the game from a friend and downloads it. The hype has died down, most PvPers have left and the word is out that GW2 PvP just isn't enough to justify the price tag for everyone besides the most die hard fans. The potential recruit pool for GW2 PvP means players who are interested enough in the PvE/WvW to pay the price for that and separating sPvP entirely from that game is death for sPvP.

    Just because -you- want rewards
    If I'm in the mood for an hour of relaxing gaming, why would I not go WvW or PvE instead of sPvP? No matter what I do I'm likely to get a bit of gold and experience giving me more skill points to use on stuff. WvW is more social and funnily enough more likely to give me non-zergy small scale PvP. In sPvP there's no progress at all. There's glory which is totally meaningless to me and likely most people. No gold for cool stuff, no new people for fun, nothing.

    If there were even something like dueling, I could go hang out in the mists and meet new people. That's a reward for the time spent as well. If I just go play sPvP for an hour I feel like I spent an hour playing a noncompetitive play mode that's not particularily exciting or interesting, spoke to no one, made no new contacts, gained nothing besides a meaningless glory number that doesn't let me do anything besides buy new armor skins that I can only use in that unexciting, non-social, non-rewarding mode of play.

    and a way to show off how awesome you are in sPvP doesn't mean most people want that, most people that want to PvP just want to PvP, and they can show off how BA they are in PvP with the PvP skins they get access to.
    No they can't since that's separated from everything else in the game. You can only wear that set in the mists and the mists are completely dead, there's zero reason for anyone to be there.

    In any case, I don't give a shit about PvP skins, but I do get annoyed if I jump into the mists and find out that all the work I put into getting a decent looking set for PvE/WvW is gone and I'm in a starter set again. I'd have to grind PvP to get the same look again if it's even possible. This is just a minor thing, really, and not fatal at all to sPvP but it's an example of why the total separation of modes is a bad idea. It just turns people off sPvP for no reason at all and it's particularily silly when the PvP gear has no functional stats anyway.

  9. #29
    I'm seriously curious what your rank was in arena if you formed teams based on dueling...

    What I mean to say is, in wow I asked my friends/guildies who were up for arena and we played like that. As we got better (or some of us) and played more people started to know our names on the server so finding a team just was simple, you spread the word to ppl who you know or play with on alts and you grinded your way up like that.

    This is pretty similar in gw2, all be it less fool proof due to no ranks/MM system
    Last edited by Meledelion; 2013-01-11 at 09:31 AM.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by jaakkeli View Post
    Well yes, we know it's a design choice. The problem is that it's a bad design choice. Splitting the game into entirely separated modes means the modes are going to live and die by their own merits and as it happens the PvE/WvW mode is good enough to survive on its own but the sPvP/tPvP mode is not.

    snip
    Not really.

    To be entirely honest what you are complaining is very little brought up, it's something that a PvEr would cry about out. The design you call it bad (and of course I respect that as your opinion) is actually what draw many pvpers. There are actually many, and I mean sooo much more people complaining about how "little" there is to do in PvE (which we have to agree that it's people who just doesn't understand how the game works mainly, but it's their opinion) that the big turn-off from PvP is definitely not the separate state that it's presented. I for one really liked that separation but what I say here it's not due to my opinion.

    I will agree that there is the "rift" between the PvP and PvE more than it should but I really think that's due to the game type (fast paced combat) and it's people trying to play it like WoW (not so much now, but it was true in the beginning, which made alot of people "wrongly" frustrated, as we see in the PvE discussions as well), and also the big gap on the learning curve, no matter what level you start to sPvP you are a fresh 80 with everything in your hands, few people really know what to do with that (and even fewer have the willpower to learn by themselves), which for me it's a huge problem. I remember saying in betas how even tho I agreed with sPvP at level 2, I felt that the little pvp tutorial was very little explanatory, and that most people would try sPvP at level 2 (because they can) and hit the wall and be frustrated, I know that because at least 3 friends of mine happened to "dislike" pvp just because they tried it before PvE, and no matter how good you are at Pvp, playing PvE for at least a few levels and more likely alot of levels is very fundamental to a bigger understanding of the combat and the class you are playing itself specially in such a new game that takes a different approach than the other 90% of the market.

    So, in a way I can agree too that it was done "fast" but in another sense. The game didn't hold the hand on the sPvP environment as it did on PvE (after so much complaining, because pre-launch it was way harder). Having all traits, weapons, sigils, runes at your disposal at any given time for free while being a wonderful idea, it kinda hurt the new comers to the sPvP scene (which pretty much were all of us). The ones that persisted really enjoyed (such as myself) regardless of the many flaws that it came with. So yes, that "rift" needs a better attention which was already talked about by Sharp but no ETA on that yet.

    About the conquest mode only, I will disagree because regardless of being the only game type (which I know it sucks) it wasn't made copy-paste at all. I think the level of the map and ideas are very cool and pretty well designed. I would like other game types as they said they will consider at some point (they had 10 game types but only conquest seemed viable at the time), and since they are aiming (thus far very far away) for esports I don't think necessarily a bad thing.

    I don't play pvp for rewards, never have. I play for the thrill of kicking your ass. I wouldn't mind getting better rewards and I think in time they will improve that. So far many of your complaints doesn't really the problem we encounter at the PvP scenery now. You can tell that by reading the forums. Im not playing gw2 right now, too many games to play haha. But once they launch custom servers Ill be the first to be there.


    Quote Originally Posted by jaakkeli View Post
    I don't share the feeling. A few weeks after the launch the mood among PvPers seemed to be disappointment in the lack of content.. -snip-
    Match Making is one of the biggest flaws yes. Specially because the hot join allows the choice of the server AND the hot join. So the rank balance that they use is completely useless if a rank 10000 can just hop on that hot join that most rank 1 are playing. One could really argue that WvW is just as zergy, yet you seem to enjoy it far more. The zerg on both are as much as you make it (The addition of the 5v5 hot join really helped that tho), WvW can be very sweet with a small team strike, and tPvP is not zergy at all.

    Also, the community builder is you. Gw2 really never hid the fact that if you don't want to talk, you can go and be just as happy as anyone. Why is it that I made my friends list since Beta with huge amounts of PvPer and you didnt? I had the same tools as you. You ask for tools to help that, where to meet people? What about meeting people while you PvP? I did and works fine. Not to mention guilds and outside communities and such. Most of your problems with the PvP are really all over the place, yet one of the biggest problem is actually balance, build diversity and better attention to tutorials and such for new comers.

    I'll just disagree again about the conquest copy and paste. And even more about the mini game for a 50 euro that has no sub. It needs alot of work, granted, but it's a good pvp game on its own. And reading your concerns is pretty obvious that it's probably something you wouldn't like much. If you want to go to WvW or PvE it's your choice of course, and it shows. The game is giving you what you want, the fact that the rewards are only aesthetic is a drawn for many as well, Durz is right just because -you- want... anyhow it's a design choice, if it doesn't work for you it's fine but you can't say its non competitive just because there are "no rewards". While I respect your opinions it's clear that you complain about "yourself". You are not actually helping yourself there.

    That's a reward for the time spent as well. If I just go play sPvP for an hour I feel like I spent an hour playing a noncompetitive play mode that's not particularily exciting or interesting, spoke to no one, made no new contacts, gained nothing besides a meaningless glory number that doesn't let me do anything besides buy new armor skins that I can only use in that unexciting, non-social, non-rewarding mode of play.
    If you don't give a shit about PvP skins and yet you complain about the amount of time spent on PvE you have a few options. One of them being not playing the PvP which sounds awesome. The other one is start caring about the gear, which sounds impossible. It is possible to get the same skin, hell there is even a guide to get the best chances on the stuff you want. But really you repeat that so much that it sounds you would be the cool player to wear that cool PvE Heroic Lich King raid set on Alterac Valley. I mean, you really put an enormous effort on that..that it's a must see for everybody else that doesn't care.

    But serious now. Let's talk about pvp... : )?

  11. #31
    Unfortunately, everything they say is so empty. Yea, we'll prepare a blog post about it.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Zilong View Post
    To be entirely honest what you are complaining is very little brought up, it's something that a PvEr would cry about out. The design you call it bad (and of course I respect that as your opinion) is actually what draw many pvpers.
    You mean the inability to use PvE armor skins (not stats, just skins) in PvP is "drawing" people to the game? You mean the inability to gain gold in PvP is "drawing" people to the game? This is just nonsense.

    The fact that gear doesn't matter in PvP is something that does have draw for PvPers frustrated with grind-to-win games. Beyond that the separation of WvW/PvE and sPvP isn't going to draw anyone to the game. The total separation is just a cheap way to achieve that total gear irrelevance in sPvP. Pretty much every player is either totally neutral on that feature or turned off by it.

    Look, we are not talking about massive rewards here. Consider this for an example. I played a bit of my newest character today (a warrior), doing some more regular leveling, tried a bit of WvW, tried a dungeon run and all that gave me a bit of progress on it. All those modes give me a bit of gold to use on whatever stuff I like and running around in all those modes gave me a bit of experience. This game does a marvelous job of giving us an experience of progressing on a character without feeling grindy. You just do whichever thing you feel like doing at the moment and it'll get you some coin and some experience.

    Except sPvP. If I were to jump there, it would effectively mean I'm GIVING UP some progress. I may feel like trying some sPvP on my new character but then I won't spend much time there since it means not leveling and not having gold income. It's even more hilarious when you consider that sPvP has been designed to give you one reward - glory - and that IS a grind. These days it's not even just a cosmetic, optional grind if you want to pug as all you'll ever see is "LF guardian rank 40+" or whatever.

    So, the game was supposed to be all about not having to grind for PvP and then it happens that actually the only mode of play that feels like a forced grind is PvP...

    There are actually many, and I mean sooo much more people complaining about how "little" there is to do in PvE (which we have to agree that it's people who just doesn't understand how the game works mainly, but it's their opinion)
    This is entertainment. The customer is always correct. If a game isn't holding a player base because too many people feel that there's nothing interesting to do, it means the developers failed to provide the content, not that the customers need to "understand" the game better or whatever.

    Also, the community builder is you.
    No thanks. If I'm going to spend a ton of effort in meeting new people, I'm going to do it in real life. If I'm paying for a multiplayer video game I expect the game to do some of the work for me.

    Why is it that I made my friends list since Beta with huge amounts of PvPer and you didnt? I had the same tools as you. You ask for tools to help that, where to meet people? What about meeting people while you PvP?
    The problem of discussing why a video game failed is that every time you point out a lack of a feature someone comes out to declare that "HEY GUYS, *I* am such an AMAZING PROGAMER that I can play even without this feature! UR JUST BAD LOLOL"

    Yeah, I believe that you are amazing and that you work hard at building video game friendships (which, strangely, haven't actually kept you playing GW2, but whatever). Yet the successful games are ones that don't expect people to put in tons of work just to get people together to play the game. GW2 sPvP is the least social experience I've ever had in an MMO and the game desperately needs some mode like "dueling outside Orgrimmar" for people to actually just hang out, spar and meet others.

    This game is so badly designed that there is even NO WAY AT ALL to group up for PvP besides tournaments that require you to either buy or grind tickets! There's no "oh, I've seen you around in the battlegrounds, let's queue up for some together again". WvWvW is the only mode of PvP that doesn't actively discourage socializing while PvPing and it's holding on to a player base just fine.

    If you want to go to WvW or PvE it's your choice of course, and it shows. The game is giving you what you want,
    No, it's not. I bought the game for sPvP and quit it very fast in disappointment. I'm only now getting back into it and finding PvE and WvW actually pretty entertaining (I usually hate PvE with a burning passion but it's more action-y in this game so it's more interesting than sitting there repeating DPS rotations).

    While I respect your opinions it's clear that you complain about "yourself".
    I haven't been complaining about anything, I've just been listing reasons why the PvP in this game has failed. Some of them are features that I personally don't give a shit about (like armor skins) but I can tell they still matter to a ton of people, yet you keep imagining that every point I bring up is some personal complaint (I don't give a shit about armor skins, once again). This next chapter is complaining:

    If you don't give a shit about PvP skins and yet you complain about the amount of time spent on PvE you have a few options. One of them being not playing the PvP which sounds awesome.
    No, it doesn't sound awesome. I bought this game for PvP and finding out that the PvP is garbage that had very little development resources was a pretty big disappointment. I never bought the heights of the hype over this game being the bext thing since Jesus, but with the amount of hype put into PvP I did really expect this game to actually have proper PvP and not just some minigame attached to a casual PvE game. I'm used to MMOs having a PvE focus and the PvP being a secondary addition and after all the hype I thought GW2 would have a PvP focus and yet it's simply another PvE-focused MMO with an afterthought PvP minigame attached to it. It has even less focus on PvP content than most MMOs, they probably put more development resources on the Christmas event than in sPvP.

    This is the kind of stuff I expected from MMOs like SWToR where PvP was never promised to be more than a minigame attached to a PvE game, but in the end even damn SWToR had more effort put into developing the PvP than GW2. If there's something I want to complain about it's this, tons of us were duped into buying a game expecting it to have a PvP focus compared to other MMOs but instead what we got was a game with even more of a PvE focus than most MMOs.

    The other one is start caring about the gear, which sounds impossible. It is possible to get the same skin, hell there is even a guide to get the best chances on the stuff you want.
    I pretty much don't give a shit about this either. I just throw on any skin that doesn't look completely retarded and then I'll be fine. The problem for me is when I try to get people from my new PvE/WvW mates and guilds to try sPvP:

    "Click the go to heart of the mists button"
    "Yeah, I did that... omg I'm wearing some ugly shit where did my gear go???"
    "You can't use your gear here, just pick whatever stats you want from the vendors here..."
    "But I spent 400 hours grinding for these legendaries! You mean I can't use that look here?!?"
    "Nope"
    "fuck this shit then im outta here"

    Where is this game going to draw more people to sPvP? You said yourself that you're not even playing it. More or less the only people still playing GW2 are PvErs/WvWers, sPvP is dead and no one is going to buy the game for sPvP at this point. The only potential players are in the PvE/WvW pool and the separation means getting them into it is an uphill battle.

    But really you repeat that so much that it sounds you would be the cool player to wear that cool PvE Heroic Lich King raid set on Alterac Valley.
    Funny that you mention it, my by far the funniest PvP memories are about going into Alterac Valley in full heroic ICC PvE gear... on the day of the pre-Cata patch... as a fire mage... didn't last long but it was fun wiping out enemy teams in a few casts.

  13. #33
    WOT crit me for 25k.
    First thing, you don't need xp or gold for sPvP that's why anet doesn't provide it. In wvw you get repair costs and upgrades that require money, in pve ye nvm that should be obvious. In sPvP none of those factors exist.

    Second, no it doesn't mean they failed to provide content. There's plenty of content what they "failed" to do is give people rewards for doing the content. (something I said in another thread already.

    Third, you're talking about people. If you don't make an effort you can go play single player games.

    Fourth point I already answered before, something with dueling right?

    Fifth and sixth so it didn't meet your expectations that again doesn't mean it's anet's fault. For instance I find "the hobbit" a boring movie, it didn't deliver what i expected so clearly the makors are scrubs.

    PvP'ers don't care about armor skins, that your pve friends don't want to PvP means you should look for a pvp guild nothing else.

    Last point, now do that shit in arenas... oh fck you're a mage and wow was designed so nicely that you had to grind pve gear to be competitive in pvp that yea that was awesome...

    edit:
    I don't mean to say pvp is perfect, nor that we got what was promised. Just what's being said isn't productive nor the big issue. MMR/private matches/ladders are far more important.
    Last edited by Meledelion; 2013-01-12 at 05:28 AM.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    First thing, you don't need xp or gold for sPvP that's why anet doesn't provide it.
    This is completely pointless. You do not get the point and you aren't even trying. GW2 separates game modes to the point where people are discouraged from trying out the others. This is just harmful to the game with no benefit as MMOs really, really do not tend to keep people that only play one mode of the game. "One mode only" works for a game like LoL because they put all their focus and effort into perfecting that one mode but in an MMO with divided focus and divided resources it's a bad idea.

    You can say "oh but there's plenty of people who ONLY want to do competitive PvP, I know this arena pro who HATES every other part of WoW but he plays arena all the time"... well, that's what people say. As it is even that arena pro that plays arena only has once leveled his character. He must have enjoyed the other types of play for a good while before he got so hooked on arenas that he wanted to focus on them entirely. Every MMO PvPer was a PvEr or casual battleground grinder first. When that arena pro gets bored of arena, WoW can still keep him occupied while he takes a break (with, say, a battleground) while the sPvPer might be level 2 with no gear. Why not just make the mode give a bit of experience and gold so that an sPvPer can jump into WvWvW and do OK there?

    Second, no it doesn't mean they failed to provide content. There's plenty of content
    There's so much content that you love that you aren't even playing the game? You are so convincing.

    Look, it's obvious that you fell in love with the idea of a game that doesn't REQUIRE you to grind PvE for experience or raid for trinkets just to be competive in PvP. Now you're stuck defending every poor design choice in the game just because you liked that idea. This obvious from, you know, just the simple fact that you spend time on forums talking about how much you liked the game but then you don't actually play the game.

    Third, you're talking about people. If you don't make an effort you can go play single player games.
    I do not play single player games. Guild Wars 2 sPvP is basically a single player game so I do not play it.

    If I want to introduce a friend to WoW PvP, I can just take them with me to a battleground or make a not serious arena team with me or just duel with them. If I want to take a friend to GW2 PvP, well I CANT. I just can't. There's no way to do it. AT ALL. It doesn't matter how much "effort" I put into it, the game doesn't offer me any way to PvP with friends or to make friends while casually PvPing. There is just solo queuing for the sPvP and the only thing there is for group play are tournaments that you actually have to grind tickets for!

    Sorry, if the game expects me to fucking grind, grind, grind just so that I could group up with people (and I still can't just take a few random mates and go do some casual PvP!), then fuck that game. No, I will not make the effort when other games offer me basic multiplayer features and I don't have to make any special effort to get around the lack of PvP features in other MMOs. Really, I've never, ever played an MMO that had such a basic lack of features for just doing some PvP with other people and this was hyped up as the PvP focused MMO? Uh.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by jaakkeli View Post
    This is completely pointless. You do not get the point and you aren't even trying. GW2 separates game modes to the point where people are discouraged from trying out the others. This is just harmful to the game with no benefit as MMOs really, really do not tend to keep people that only play one mode of the game. "One mode only" works for a game like LoL because they put all their focus and effort into perfecting that one mode but in an MMO with divided focus and divided resources it's a bad idea.

    You can say "oh but there's plenty of people who ONLY want to do competitive PvP, I know this arena pro who HATES every other part of WoW but he plays arena all the time"... well, that's what people say. As it is even that arena pro that plays arena only has once leveled his character. He must have enjoyed the other types of play for a good while before he got so hooked on arenas that he wanted to focus on them entirely. Every MMO PvPer was a PvEr or casual battleground grinder first. When that arena pro gets bored of arena, WoW can still keep him occupied while he takes a break (with, say, a battleground) while the sPvPer might be level 2 with no gear. Why not just make the mode give a bit of experience and gold so that an sPvPer can jump into WvWvW and do OK there?



    There's so much content that you love that you aren't even playing the game? You are so convincing.

    Look, it's obvious that you fell in love with the idea of a game that doesn't REQUIRE you to grind PvE for experience or raid for trinkets just to be competive in PvP. Now you're stuck defending every poor design choice in the game just because you liked that idea. This obvious from, you know, just the simple fact that you spend time on forums talking about how much you liked the game but then you don't actually play the game.



    I do not play single player games. Guild Wars 2 sPvP is basically a single player game so I do not play it.

    If I want to introduce a friend to WoW PvP, I can just take them with me to a battleground or make a not serious arena team with me or just duel with them. If I want to take a friend to GW2 PvP, well I CANT. I just can't. There's no way to do it. AT ALL. It doesn't matter how much "effort" I put into it, the game doesn't offer me any way to PvP with friends or to make friends while casually PvPing. There is just solo queuing for the sPvP and the only thing there is for group play are tournaments that you actually have to grind tickets for!

    Sorry, if the game expects me to fucking grind, grind, grind just so that I could group up with people (and I still can't just take a few random mates and go do some casual PvP!), then fuck that game. No, I will not make the effort when other games offer me basic multiplayer features and I don't have to make any special effort to get around the lack of PvP features in other MMOs. Really, I've never, ever played an MMO that had such a basic lack of features for just doing some PvP with other people and this was hyped up as the PvP focused MMO? Uh.
    Dude, you don't need gold nor xp to be viable in sPvP, that is why it's not in there. Your little tangent about the game being separated pvp and pve wise has nothing to do with this.

    I'm one of those guys who only played pvp in wow. And yes I lvld a toon to max and yes I did raids because I had to. You know what I love so much about tournament realm? The fact that I don't have to do that shit.

    I am playing the game, wtf are you on about? And I liked it before GW2, I played GW1 purely for pvp for a couple of years...

    No it isn't. Make a team, go to the mists, hit play now. And the rest in your team can hit "join blabla" just like with overflow servers. Or alternatively look for an empty server and join there.
    "Grinding tickets" are you serious?you get tickets every time you rank up. You also get tickets for daily pvp... it's really not that hard. (and you can always do free tourneys they hardly cost any tickets)

    No you don't need to grind to group up with people... Where do you get that idea from?

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    Dude, you don't need gold nor xp to be viable in sPvP, that is why it's not in there
    This is hopeless, I will make this one more post and no longer reply to you after it.

    If you do your personal quest line, you end up getting some WvWvW siege blueprints as a PvE quest reward, even though those are not needed in PvE. They don't have any use at all in PvE.

    I think it's nice: people are encouraged to try the other mode. I bet a lot of people who didn't even know much about WvWvW got those and went like "what's this thing I got? I'm going to go out and try it out" and perhaps some of them ended up playing a lot of WvWvW. If you aren't interested in WvWvW, you can always just delete the blueprints. You keep repeating that coin is not needed in sPvP when the whole point is that it's not used in sPvP and therefore giving some coin reward would encourage sPvPers to try other modes and encourage the rest to try some sPvP.

    Every other mode of this game is alive and well, it is only sPvP that is struggling. sPvP is also the only form of gameplay that's entirely separated from the other modes into its own minigame. I do not think it's any coincidence.

    PvP is very much alive: WvWvW is doing fine. It's not hermetically sealed off from the rest of the game so people can pop in and pop out of it and it fits seamlessly into their leveling/gold gaining/daily event achievement/whatever. There are some people who are hardcore into WvWvW and play no other modes and they benefit from a living world with actual players even when most of those players aren't heavily into WvWvW. No game manages to stay alive just on hardcore players, you need that large casual player base, and sPvP just isn't good enough on its own to get one. As a real part of GW2 it might just get one.

    It works the other way as well, the way it works now we ended up getting a lot of PvP fanatics doing sPvP only for a while. Then they got bored of the repetition and they were still level 2 with no gear so they couldn't just jump off to do some WvWvW to get a break off sPvP and instead a lot of them went to other games. If they had gained some levels and coin through all that sPvPing, then maybe some of them would have instead figured, hey, I have all this coin, maybe I'll just buy a set of gear and go try out some WvWvW for a break in sPvP monotony. Most arena fanatics in WoW relax in the occasional battleground, why not sPvP fanatics in GW2? Well, because the game didn't give them any coin or levels for those 50 glory ranks so WvWvW sucks for them.

    Make a team, go to the mists, hit play now.
    That button is such a bad idea now. At a late hour it has often been just a game after game of being literally alone in the game... last time I tried I think I farmed a couple of glory ranks without actually seeing another player...

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by jaakkeli View Post
    This is entertainment. The customer is always correct. If a game isn't holding a player base because too many people feel that there's nothing interesting to do, it means the developers failed to provide the content, not that the customers need to "understand" the game better or whatever.
    LOL. So if one customer says the game is shit and everything needs to be changed, and another says the game is amazing and nothing should be changed, which one is right? Are they both right? Do you poll your entire community and find where the majority of your customers lean? Even if you do that though, you're still essentially saying those minority of customers are wrong.

    Honestly though, anyone who spews out the nonsense that the customer is always right comes across to me as a consumer who has never actually worked on the other side dealing with customers. Customers ask for ridiculous things on a regular basis, and while business should always do their best to accommodate them, if they did that for every single customer, a whole lot of businesses wouldn't exist anymore.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by jaakkeli View Post
    This is hopeless, I will make this one more post and no longer reply to you after it.

    If you do your personal quest line, you end up getting some WvWvW siege blueprints as a PvE quest reward, even though those are not needed in PvE. They don't have any use at all in PvE.

    I think it's nice: people are encouraged to try the other mode. I bet a lot of people who didn't even know much about WvWvW got those and went like "what's this thing I got? I'm going to go out and try it out" and perhaps some of them ended up playing a lot of WvWvW. If you aren't interested in WvWvW, you can always just delete the blueprints. You keep repeating that coin is not needed in sPvP when the whole point is that it's not used in sPvP and therefore giving some coin reward would encourage sPvPers to try other modes and encourage the rest to try some sPvP.

    Every other mode of this game is alive and well, it is only sPvP that is struggling. sPvP is also the only form of gameplay that's entirely separated from the other modes into its own minigame. I do not think it's any coincidence.

    PvP is very much alive: WvWvW is doing fine. It's not hermetically sealed off from the rest of the game so people can pop in and pop out of it and it fits seamlessly into their leveling/gold gaining/daily event achievement/whatever. There are some people who are hardcore into WvWvW and play no other modes and they benefit from a living world with actual players even when most of those players aren't heavily into WvWvW. No game manages to stay alive just on hardcore players, you need that large casual player base, and sPvP just isn't good enough on its own to get one. As a real part of GW2 it might just get one.

    It works the other way as well, the way it works now we ended up getting a lot of PvP fanatics doing sPvP only for a while. Then they got bored of the repetition and they were still level 2 with no gear so they couldn't just jump off to do some WvWvW to get a break off sPvP and instead a lot of them went to other games. If they had gained some levels and coin through all that sPvPing, then maybe some of them would have instead figured, hey, I have all this coin, maybe I'll just buy a set of gear and go try out some WvWvW for a break in sPvP monotony. Most arena fanatics in WoW relax in the occasional battleground, why not sPvP fanatics in GW2? Well, because the game didn't give them any coin or levels for those 50 glory ranks so WvWvW sucks for them.



    That button is such a bad idea now. At a late hour it has often been just a game after game of being literally alone in the game... last time I tried I think I farmed a couple of glory ranks without actually seeing another player...
    I get what you're trying to say. And you give a great example with the blueprints. However something similar does happen if you do PS, you get glory boosters.

    In your example you demonstrate that people are "lured" in from another aspect of the game to try something different (pve:>wvw). But what you stated previously was on another level. It was on the level of, I am now in sPvP but how do I stay here.

    Again, it doesn't make sense to give people gold and exp in a branch that doesn't use it.
    Let's say you did get xp and gold from sPvP. And you only played sPvP and your toon now is lvl 80 and has 200g. If you want to get into pve now, you'll still be doing the low lvl stuff due to downscaling. This means that you don't "gain" anything (thus there's no incentive) to go pve.

    I agree that sPvP needs lots of fixes and that one of the biggest issues is the lack of "casuals".

    What you state about grinding ranks without seeing anyone else is BS, games don't start unless there is an opposing team. So you must've met atleast one person

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by jaakkeli View Post
    Huge non-sense post of snipnesszor.
    1 - Yes it draws many pvpers. The ability to jump in, play how much you like and jump out was actually a promise of Anet. Which no matter what, they delivered. What you are asking while could make sense it's just non-sense. Want progression? you have many options inside Gw2 and many other games. sPvP is by design not offering progression and light rewards. Simply put don't play it.

    2 - The customer is always correct is just bullshit and really not that simple. If that were to be true every game out there would just suck. It's important to have a design and stick with it. As I said, the problem with sPvP has nothing to do with the non-sense you are spilling here. Your opinion is welcome but holds as much weight as a PvEr-only point of view into PvP. Not that it matters but Im a chef irl, and a customer asks for a medium rare beef, I give it to him and he says it's too raw. Altho he is not correct and his perception is off, we (as me) can improve his experience with rarely any problem, so I will just cook it a little more and much likely keep the customer returning, this can be done with little problem since 1 customer is a big percentage of my total, unlike you and Anet. So Anet came up with that decision knowing that it might not please everybody, but they can't change it now or it will be bad. And also you are just...numerically speaking, nothing. They are better off so much more improving the real problems of sPvP and holding/attracting more than actually listening to you.

    3 - Well they made the game, the chat, and the areas. The rest is up to you. No one is telling you to do anything. I've seen many people that never said a word and played in groups just fine. And I've seen people that talked so much more than they leveled. In conjunction with number 4 - I'm not telling you that I'm awesome and everything, I'm telling you that you are simply complaining about something you don't seem eager to do. I still play Gw2, still always log and search for news, I'm just playing other stuff that came up recently (Far Cry), I'm not paying sub anyways. It's funny that whatever comes out of your posts you can actually search on forum and see how people say the "opposite". I know you said "Spvp are the least social game ever etc", but then again Gw2 is probably one of the most social games out there... So as I said, you often complain about disinterests found in your own self.

    5 - It's easy to quote mini-lines and reply to them. But anyways, as I said the game gave you the sPvP. If you don't like it, sure do something else. But refer to all the other numbers and other posts around and see yourself alone (which indicates something...I wonder what..?).

    6 - You have listed reasons why PvP has failed. But the problem is that even if we agreed that PvP has failed, it wouldn't be by those reasons. So in the end you have listed...personal complaints. I'm not imagining anything. The problems with PvP (and there are many) are not the ones you are coming up with. Then again, you wouldn't know since you said you "bought the game for sPvP and quit it very fast in disappointment".

    7 - Well. I think the problem here is that you seem delusional. Because you say you didn't go for the Jesus hype, yet you were "expecting" for the amount of hype put into PvP. And then you were disappointed. I would tell you that hype is what the player-base really make of it, not Anet faults (Besides the Marketing which honesltly everyone should doubt by now). But let me be clear, Even if you didn't play the Beta Weekends (Which alot of us did), I don't think there were huge promises that weren't put into sPvP. They were pretty transparent, the beta players saw what was coming, and possibly you could have talked with a beta player. The game is now what.. lil more than 4 months..we had 2 new maps and tweaks. I won't defend Gw2 cause I still think PvP has long ways to be the level I want, but I never thought it was just a mini-game. And don't even get me started on SWTOR PvP.....

    8 - You don't seem to give a shit about anything but the fact that you bought gw2 for it's Jesus sPvP and got disappointed lol. I agree that Legendaries could have an appearance in sPvP, why not. Whos to say they are not in the ranks no one is at. But really, if that's the reason why you won't pvp, just better that you don't pvp. I'm not playing because 1 - I want to see Feb update, and 2 I bought alot of games from Steam Holiday, just finished Legends of Grimrock, now I'm on Farcry 3, still missing some other games. I don't pay a sub for the game that I played already 600 hours (many of them into sPvP) so you are going to pin me for not playing it now? Lol. It's not like I'm saying the game is perfect, has many flaws and I look fowards for those updates, and it's nice to let it brew a bit. Nonetheless I still log in and play a few matches in tPvP with the players there.

    9 - Haha my point exactly. Oh I wait...I see what you did there...anyway. Dodging the bullet.

    Extra 10: I think for someone who doesn't give a shit for many of the points here, you need to chill and just post what you think, I'm sure the millions of players who aren't playing sPvP because of the skins and stuff will go easy on you. And you posted what you think, you disliked it, doesn't offer progression, glory is a grind. But really, I play cause I like it, I never pay attention to my glory, and progression is exactly what they don't want. I don't want it either. I want to hop in, play, pwon a few people, maybe get a few rewards there, hop out. In PvE everything I do gives a little reward, its fun too but different, we don't want Spvp to be a progression for PvE. You adjust much better to WvW, so just play that.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Zilong View Post
    2 - The customer is always correct is just bullshit and really not that simple. If that were to be true every game out there would just Be Free!
    sorry, I couldn't resist

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