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  1. #1

    Monk PTR MW or WW OP

    I keep hearing people talk about monks on the PTR bring OP, a lot of it being centered around WW. Can anyone active on the PTR clarify what is making it so OP and if its just WW or is MW getting buffed as well? THanks

  2. #2
    Probably Ring of Peace, primarily. But there's a fair few changes coming that'll help us out in PvP (Nimble Brew, removes stuns, fears, roots, etc.) in general.

    As far as I know they're not going to Mistweavers though. Just WW and BrM. I could be wrong on this though: I don't pay attention to Mistweavers at all.

    I'd suggest taking a closer look at the PTR patch notes: http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/2...-ptr-now-live/

  3. #3
    Mistweaver is going to have some pretty glaring issues (PvE and PvP) if the changes go live as they are now.

  4. #4
    New TeB Mastery makes WW sorta in the OP side in PvE
    Ring of Peace just seals the deal of WW being OP on the PvP end

    BrM they are already OP in the right hands, though I doubt there will be any significant changes as the Mastery buff is really minor. Well at least for me who stacks Haste/Crit as tank and try to avoid Mastery like plague.

    No comments on MW as I do not play it, however based on 2nd hand opinion nothing much is being worked out to improve their standing.

  5. #5
    Its RoP being a 8sec blanket silence that's OP for PVP and the new TeB just needs scaling down as 5% per stack and builds to 10 stacks in 20GCDs is going to lead to balancing problems.

  6. #6
    The Insane peggleftw's Avatar
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    im a bit of a noob at monk in gereral, but ive playing MW on the ptr for a few days. i would not say MW is OP, they have very powerful healing, but you burn through mana too fast, im obvioulsy not spamming surging mist, but even so my mana goes far too quick.
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  7. #7
    Everything will change by the time the patch goes live, not sure what all the fuss is about.

  8. #8
    The Insane peggleftw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thisisanalt View Post
    Everything will change by the time the patch goes live, not sure what all the fuss is about.

    blizzard are not known for changing all that much on the ptr :P
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by peggleftw View Post
    blizzard are not known for changing all that much on the ptr :P
    They're also not known for nerfing a healing class into the ground within a month. There's enough people bringing up the dreaded phrase "Death Knights" to keep this from making live.

    That and Windwalker is just freakytown super OP. You don't give a decent sustained DPS class a ~30-50% damage increasing cooldown and then double the uptime.
    Currently trying to experiences all classes at 100. Count so far: 3.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by TheWindWalker View Post
    That and Windwalker is just freakytown super OP. You don't give a decent sustained DPS class a ~30-50% damage increasing cooldown and then double the uptime.
    Have you been to the PTR and tried WW yourself? In my opinion people are jumping the WW-OP bandwagon too readily after seeing the patchnotes. 30-50% does seem extremely powerful, but in reality the buff is nowhere near that strong actually. I copied my live ilevel~490 WW and played around with reforging until I thought I had the new sweet spot on PTR, went to the dummies multiple times. Bottom line being, I have to drop way too much haste and crit rating to achieve mastery levels that WOULD give me high numbers on brew. I ended up with about 38% TEB buff, but that cost me over 70% of my crit rating while maintaining more or less my haste levels. So that's 18% more damage increase on TEB than on live, while it's on double uptime, but in exchange vor alot of crit chance.

    This leads to my dps on dummies not being significantly higher on PTR than on live, although I have to admit in raid environment I do expect an increase because of the way burst scales with herolust. It's however in no way expected to be anywhere a flat 30-50% buff, even if you had optimal haste/mastery gear, which admittedly I have not.

  11. #11
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheWindWalker View Post
    They're also not known for nerfing a healing class into the ground within a month. There's enough people bringing up the dreaded phrase "Death Knights" to keep this from making live.

    That and Windwalker is just freakytown super OP. You don't give a decent sustained DPS class a ~30-50% damage increasing cooldown and then double the uptime.
    Keep in mind, though Blizzard may not want Monks to become like Death Knights, the devs are acknowledging that Monks are absent from PvP, and that their PvP toolset is subpar. They are toying with the idea that they may have to make Monks OP for a while to turn their representation around. If you've been checking out GC's tweets, the Monk PvP situation sounds pretty dire.

    Everyone likes to slam DKs for being OP for a long time, but look where the class is now. Their OPness made them very popular in PvP and PvE, and brought a lot of people to the class. Even when the nerfs started rolling in, and the entire class got overhauled in cataclysm, a lot of DK players stayed with the class, and are still with it to this day. Meanwhile, Monk numbers are dropping rapidly across the board in both PvE and PvP. The last thing Blizzard wants is for their new class to be DoA.

    If that means that Monks will be OP for a few seasons, then so be it.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2013-01-07 at 01:56 PM.

  12. #12
    Moderator Callimonk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shou View Post
    Have you been to the PTR and tried WW yourself? In my opinion people are jumping the WW-OP bandwagon too readily after seeing the patchnotes. 30-50% does seem extremely powerful, but in reality the buff is nowhere near that strong actually. I copied my live ilevel~490 WW and played around with reforging until I thought I had the new sweet spot on PTR, went to the dummies multiple times. Bottom line being, I have to drop way too much haste and crit rating to achieve mastery levels that WOULD give me high numbers on brew. I ended up with about 38% TEB buff, but that cost me over 70% of my crit rating while maintaining more or less my haste levels. So that's 18% more damage increase on TEB than on live, while it's on double uptime, but in exchange vor alot of crit chance.

    This leads to my dps on dummies not being significantly higher on PTR than on live, although I have to admit in raid environment I do expect an increase because of the way burst scales with herolust. It's however in no way expected to be anywhere a flat 30-50% buff, even if you had optimal haste/mastery gear, which admittedly I have not.
    Have you tried moving haste in your priority to the beginning? Just a thought. I personally haven't been on PTR just yet (downloaded it last night during raid).

  13. #13
    i am sure blizzard read this so can we stop saying we are so OP and say Monks are needing a boost so blizzard can just make us #1 we are all monks here why are we slamming our class !?

  14. #14
    Moderator Callimonk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boohaha View Post
    i am sure blizzard read this so can we stop saying we are so OP and say Monks are needing a boost so blizzard can just make us #1 we are all monks here why are we slamming our class !?
    Personally, I'm just tired of hearing "monks are OP" because we now have something that makes us stand out (RoP) and that we actually do competitive damage vs. being middle of the pack.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Shou View Post
    Have you been to the PTR and tried WW yourself? In my opinion people are jumping the WW-OP bandwagon too readily after seeing the patchnotes. 30-50% does seem extremely powerful, but in reality the buff is nowhere near that strong actually. I copied my live ilevel~490 WW and played around with reforging until I thought I had the new sweet spot on PTR, went to the dummies multiple times. Bottom line being, I have to drop way too much haste and crit rating to achieve mastery levels that WOULD give me high numbers on brew. I ended up with about 38% TEB buff, but that cost me over 70% of my crit rating while maintaining more or less my haste levels. So that's 18% more damage increase on TEB than on live, while it's on double uptime, but in exchange vor alot of crit chance.
    That's because it should replace the need for crit entirely. We might very well switch to a "haste>mastery>crit" build simply because our former mastery is now a minimal static chance, so we can't lean on procs allowing us to reforge off so much haste, and occasional 2x damage might not be as good as 70%-80% uptime of even 38% damage.


    This leads to my dps on dummies not being significantly higher on PTR than on live, although I have to admit in raid environment I do expect an increase because of the way burst scales with herolust.
    While I may be wrong about us being far too OP at the moment, wait until we're in heroic T15 and see how our scaling will work then. It's still odd to give so much power to a class that wasn't that far behind.

    Also, Windwalkers don't benefit form Heroism/Bloodlust like a caster class. Especially if we switch back to needing ~5.5-6.5k haste rating to make up for having lost so many CB procs regardless of our other stats. For us, all that will mean is 30% faster autoattacks and that's not particularly on-par with a Mage/Warlock/Ele Shaman/Spriest. At the moment, it's only fairly useful to us because it means we can reforge heavily to crit and know that during those raid burst moments we'll have all the energy we need.
    Currently trying to experiences all classes at 100. Count so far: 3.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by SnorlaxJeng View Post
    New TeB Mastery makes WW sorta in the OP side in PvE
    Ring of Peace just seals the deal of WW being OP on the PvP end
    Seals the deal on the pvp end? You say that as if we werent anything but free kills in any bracket of arena or RBGs. Sorry but your 1v1 duels with WW's dont amount to anything in terms of what is balanced or not.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by thelordymir View Post
    Seals the deal on the pvp end? You say that as if we werent anything but free kills in any bracket of arena or RBGs. Sorry but your 1v1 duels with WW's dont amount to anything in terms of what is balanced or not.
    This is the same exact bellyaching that happened when Hunters lost their minimum range at the start of the xpac. People who were too used to being able to shut down hunters by /hugging them now had to adjust their strategies and a previously mediocre class had a lot of its handicapping issues addressed.

    i.e. people are bitching that monks have a powerful pvp-oriented ability and can no longer cc-train them to death. Give it time and RoP will either be nerfed under the immense public whining or people will just learn to deal with it. Bads will continue to be bad, good players will adjust.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by TheWindWalker View Post
    While I may be wrong about us being far too OP at the moment, wait until we're in heroic T15 and see how our scaling will work then. It's still odd to give so much power to a class that wasn't that far behind.
    That's already alot more like the attitude I appreciate towards the matter. You're totally right, we can't know yet how it will actually scale into the tier yet, and that's exactly the reason why everyone should refrain from calling the nerfbat too soon. We also don't know how other classes will scale in T15 gear, as we all know from experience that set boni for example may boost one class' damage considerably while another's bonus is practically useless (see monk T14 duh ).

    And while what you're saying about Herolust is completely true, this also means that while the mastery changes may buff us outside of it, due to what you described as us being forced into higher haste levels to make use of that outside-lust buff, we basically gain nothing from lust anymore, except for those 30% faster white hits exactly. So from whatever perspective we look at it, the buff may or may just not pan out as strong as we currently think.

  19. #19
    From my experience on the PTR I don't think that Windwalker monks are OP.

    For example in a 2v2 arena setting most people would see double Warrior team, double Frost Mage team, double BM Hunter team, or any combination of those and pretty much crap their pants (if they're an underpowered team).

    On the PTR I think that Windwalkers and Rogues have simply joined the ranks of the aforementioned classes. A double Windwalker team is not more scary than a double Warrior/Frost Mage/BM Hunter team. It's just equally scary.

    Now you could argue that Warriors/Frost Mages/BM Hunters need heavy nerfs and that adding Rogues and Windwalkers to the mix of powerful classes is the wrong thing to do, but I just don't think you could say that any of the strongest arena classes is significantly stronger than any of the others right now. The classes being ignored are the ones that were merely above average, they're still being outclassed by the top arena specs but now there are more of them. A couple of the worst classes became a couple of the better classes which changes the hierarchy.

    But still, after having spent an entire season not able to get on a decent arena team, being laughed at when trying to join RBGs, basically having a stigma associated with your class alone I think we deserve some time in the sun.

    And as Teriz pointed out: there was a good side to what happened with DKs. A new class was adopted by the arena community. Many people rerolled, new comps were created, teams and friendships were formed and their arena representation was there. Then they got nerfed to the point that they were balanced but most people stayed on their DK, and stayed with their team because they knew how to play together and they could still win and get a decent rating (they just weren't OP).

    Monk is the only other class that has ever been added to the game and we haven't been adopted by the community yet. Even if Blizzard keeps giving us small incremental buffs to get us to the level that we're "balanced" (middle of the pack) then not many people will reroll and teams won't spend the time learning how to play with a monk. Why would they? So they can be "middle of the pack"? If people really want to reroll or form a new team they'll do it with an OP class like Warrior or Frost Mage.

  20. #20
    Moderator Callimonk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moozhe View Post
    Monk is the only other class that has ever been added to the game and we haven't been adopted by the community yet. Even if Blizzard keeps giving us small incremental buffs to get us to the level that we're "balanced" (middle of the pack) then not many people will reroll and teams won't spend the time learning how to play with a monk. Why would they? So they can be "middle of the pack"? If people really want to reroll or form a new team they'll do it with an OP class like Warrior or Frost Mage.
    As always - well put, Moozhe.

    It wouldn't hurt us (specifically, Windwalker) to have greater representation. And I'd hate to see us be nerfed in some other aspect just because the PvP crowed feels that RoP is overpowered, or that we can suddenly do competitive (re: above-middle) numbers in either aspect of endgame.

    If we're OP for a while, I think that'll help our numbers as a whole by attracting more people, and more guilds to recruit us. We only have a little bit of top-end representation as it stands - most guilds only have 1 windwalker, and are trying to recruit more (I know mine is looking for a second) but the applications (the GOOD applications, at least - though, to be fair, the applications in general) just aren't coming in.

    And, well, it sounds like I'll have an easier time conquest capping - mostly because I'll be able to find people who don't mind teaming with a WW.

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