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  1. #21
    Uplift is still better than chi burst in 25s, same as it was before (assuming you keep up RnM properly). 5.2 is buffing chi wave VERY, VERY much. It's absurd. And I'm going to love every minute of being OP with it, but they'll prolly nerf it on PTR :c

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by gnorrior View Post
    Uplift is still better than chi burst in 25s, same as it was before (assuming you keep up RnM properly). 5.2 is buffing chi wave VERY, VERY much. It's absurd. And I'm going to love every minute of being OP with it, but they'll prolly nerf it on PTR :c
    Uplift needs to be on 8 targets to be better than Chi Burst, which still only happens under the influence of TFT. It's still "better" the same as before, except it always has been situational.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    Uplift needs to be on 8 targets to be better than Chi Burst, which still only happens under the influence of TFT. It's still "better" the same as before, except it always has been situational.
    But if you have it up on 8 targets but only 3 targets need heals (ie, two tanks and someone that took damage) while the rest are good HP which seems to be the case for me a lot with 2 discs, 2 holy pallys, better to Chi Burst no?

  4. #24
    In raw throughput, sure 8 targets are needed for uplift. In reality, chi burst is going to (in general) cleave onto a number of pets and in most circumstances MANY full health targets, just like uplift will be healing full health targets. On the other hand, uplift doesn't cleave onto pets, so in general, I expect uplift to beat chi burst. When I say in general, I mean that in my raid, the times where my uplift targets dont need healing, generally means that those same uplift targets are still not going to need healing. At least at my current skill level in targeting chi burst, my logs have reliably told me that the overhealing on chi burst is often significantly higher than uplift, such that 7target uplift is > chi burst.

    If 3 targets need heals, then using chi burst either A: is going to have massive overheals on the rest of the stacked raid (and greatly diminish the heal on the 3 targets you want to heal), or B: will likely only hit one of them. At that point, you might as well blackout kick.

    As with all healing (ESP. MW, since disc's/hpallies screw us): YMMV.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludacritts View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Chi Burst better than Chi Wave? Maybe it's a 10 man thing, but I've always heard Chi Burst is better for the level 30 talents.
    This is just an example, it highly depends on your raid size and your setup. In 10 players, chi wave is an extraordinary strong heal, especially if you are fistweaving and therefor close to the tank. It will bring him up to full health within 2 seconds.
    If you already have a strong tank healer with you, or the fight is rather around aoe damage than tank damage, I still prefer uplift to chi burst in our raid setup, since chi burst only hits me, two melees a pet and maybe the tank, but since it is a cast it resets your autohit timer causing less eminence heal.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Puri View Post
    This is just an example, it highly depends on your raid size and your setup. In 10 players, chi wave is an extraordinary strong heal, especially if you are fistweaving and therefor close to the tank. It will bring him up to full health within 2 seconds.
    If you already have a strong tank healer with you, or the fight is rather around aoe damage than tank damage, I still prefer uplift to chi burst in our raid setup, since chi burst only hits me, two melees a pet and maybe the tank, but since it is a cast it resets your autohit timer causing less eminence heal.
    Unless you have evidence otherwise, http://www.wowhead.com/talent#n|, clearly states on chi burst tooltip that it allows you to continue auto-attacking (and I feel I've not noticed it stopping my AA, but feel isn't worth anything.)

  7. #27
    The 'feel' is because it does interrupt the animations with the Chi Burst chucking animation, but the white numbers will still tick up when they're supposed to. With how short the cast is, you have to be specifically looking for it to notice, as well as have the right timing with your autoattack swings.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreyo View Post
    The 'feel' is because it does interrupt the animations with the Chi Burst chucking animation, but the white numbers will still tick up when they're supposed to. With how short the cast is, you have to be specifically looking for it to notice, as well as have the right timing with your autoattack swings.
    Quartz easily tracks swing timers and MSBT has you covered for both seeing the white damage and you'll also see your Serpents Zeal tick as well.

  9. #29
    This is why I decided to re-roll monk for MoP (from my resto shaman). They're just so versatile!

    MANA TEA GLYPH - Most of the time I do NOT use this glyph. In *most* fights there will be a down time for healers (or while another healer is popping a CD) and you can chug for a good bit instead of channeling a focus pot. HOWEVER, there are a couple fights, especially when I do 10m, where I won't have any opportunity at all to channel and this glyph becomes a MUST. I would definitely recommend an addon tho that will track the cooldown on your mana tea spell (if glyphed). I use power auras, so I know when the spell is up (and if i have at least 2 stacks) and I know to use it asap. If you're glyphing, do not let your teas sit or build up high. That defeats the whole purpose, because if you have 18 stacks of tea, you're probably gonna generate more than you can consume and that = waste. Also if you talent for Healing Elixirs, you get a good heal everytime you pop your mana tea also which is nice if there's a lot of aoe dmg going out.

    FISTWEAVING - Again, monks are SO versatile! If it's a fight where you can melee, DO EET. I've found that is the BEST healing throughput as well as the most mana efficient. With Soothing Mists, it's all RNG. Sure, we have a slightly better chance to generate chi than before, but still sometimes I'll do a FULL channel and not generate a single one, and sometimes generate 4. BUT, if you're jabbing, that's a guaranteed chi everytime and a heal. AND DON'T FORGET EXPEL HARM! This is the cheapest chi-gen available and it also heals you, does damage (if you're in range), and triggers Eminence heals. And during intense aoe damage you will be AMAZED with (RM up, TFT, RM) jab, jab, UPLIFT. Jab, Jab, UPLIFT, jab, jab, UPLIFT.

    HASTE CAPS - DOO EET. Hit your haste caps. Renewing Mists/Uplift is going to be your raid healing go-to in most every fight. Sure you can Spinning Crane Kick, but you'll quickly learn that spell is a mana sink and for the most part isn't worth it in 25man because of DR due to the number of people. Getting that extra tick is a massive improvement. We're already (or should be) keeping Renewing Mists on CD so why would you NOT improve your #1 spell. I have reached my 2nd haste cap and STILL have enough crit to generate PLENTY of mana tea, and my little mastery orbs still pop out like crazy lol. Just make sure that you have spirit on EV-VER-REE-THING, and then hit the next haste cap that you can reach. Do not go as far as to gem straight haste or reforge ANY spirit to hit the cap. But if you can get it with reforging (crit/mastery) and a couple of haste-spirit gems, then go for it, it's worth it.

    CHI WAVE/CHI BURST/UPLIFT - If you're in 10man, you should ONLY be using Uplift as your 2-chi ability. Anything else is a waste. If you happen to be tanking healing, get 3 chi and use Enveloping Mist. In 25man, if it's a spread-out fight, I use Uplift solely. If the melee are grouped and I can make a line behind most of the ranged, I use Chi Burst. I can't say I use Chi Wave very often outside of dungeons.

    Good luck with your monk. I agree with you, this is the most *fun* healer I've ever played.... and I've played them all lol.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreyo View Post
    This is...rather inaccurate.

    The glyph does not let you chug all the stacks to get a huge chunk of mana back all at once, no, but it is a throughput increase as far as mana gained per time spent chugging. Glyphed Mana Tea lets you chug stacks at twice the rate of unglyphed, albeit spread out.

    It's a rather strong glyph, assuming you're paying attention with your stacks throughout the fight.
    How is that inaccurate? It restricts the maximum mana gain from the ability to 8% of your maximum mana every 10 seconds. In a 7 minute fight the most you're going to get out of it is 40 uses that matter. That's a restriction of 320% max mana gain. If you hadn't had it glyphed you'd be free to use up any excess stacks as you saw fit. Please don't reply with nonsense in future, thanks.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by gnorrior View Post
    Unless you have evidence otherwise, http://www.wowhead.com/talent#n|, clearly states on chi burst tooltip that it allows you to continue auto-attacking (and I feel I've not noticed it stopping my AA, but feel isn't worth anything.)
    Yes, you obviously are right.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Dumbfoundead View Post
    How is that inaccurate? It restricts the maximum mana gain from the ability to 8% of your maximum mana every 10 seconds. In a 7 minute fight the most you're going to get out of it is 40 uses that matter. That's a restriction of 320% max mana gain. If you hadn't had it glyphed you'd be free to use up any excess stacks as you saw fit. Please don't reply with nonsense in future, thanks.
    Your math is way off. 2 stacks per 10 seconds works out to 12 stacks per minute, or 84 stacks in 7 minutes, not 40. Honestly, generating 8 Chi every 10 seconds is impossible unless you're using Soothing/Enveloping, as any other method would take 1 second per Chi to generate and 1 second per 2 Chi to spend, resulting in 8 Chi every 12 seconds only if you're literally spamming abilities for an entire fight. If you want to take Crit into account you also have to take the GCD the drink expends, meaning that you'd have to generate and spend 6 Chi every 9 seconds to reach maximum capacity (assuming 33% Crit, which is very generous), which is the absolute limit for glyphed Mana Tea spending.

    In short, the only way you can end up with excess stacks is if you're not actually using the cooldown AND spamming abilities non-stop, which is just being a bad healer at that point.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Dumbfoundead View Post
    How is that inaccurate? It restricts the maximum mana gain from the ability to 8% of your maximum mana every 10 seconds. In a 7 minute fight the most you're going to get out of it is 40 uses that matter. That's a restriction of 320% max mana gain. If you hadn't had it glyphed you'd be free to use up any excess stacks as you saw fit. Please don't reply with nonsense in future, thanks.
    You can't generate mana tea stacks faster than you can consume them. In a 7 minute fight, you can't have more than 80 stacks, so it doesn't matter that you won't be able to get more than 40 uses of it. This is basic math, actually, based on how much chi you can generate per time. Even counting in the extra stacks from crit, it is mathematically impossible, based on GCDs, to generate and spend chi quickly enough so that glyphed tea falls behind the stack count. It's not even close, which means there's significant lag time on when you actually use the tea - you don't have to hit it right on cooldown every time. Sure, if you stop using it at all for two minutes, you'll fall behind, but that's just you being bad, not a problem with the glyph.

    Glyph of Mana Tea is a straight throughput increase. It takes twice the time to consume the stacks without the glyph. And that time is time you could be healing.

    Please don't call it "nonsense" if you don't know what you're talking about.

  14. #34
    As has been said, max chi gen/spend is 6 chi/9s, requiring 33% crit to (on average) hit the cap of glyph consumption. Beyond that, it requires constant casting for the entire fight which happens all of: Never.
    Further, the best reason for the glyph is that it allows you to regen mana during high healing intensity phases w/o spending a lot of globals. For example, I often have high mana and some amount (around five for example) mana tea stacks going into, say, empress P3 or protectors heroic boss 3. If it wasn't glyphed I'd be unable to really regen any mana during those phases (one global of ten is one thing, but a large set of globals mid-damage phase? not happening.) Since a lot of those high damage phases tend to be at the end of a fight, using the glyph means you would likely end a fight with a lot of stacks. As such, the glyph gains value since it lets you consume more stacks/at more times in the fight (using less globals, also being instant, it means you will continue to eminence heal while regenning mana.)

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    Your math is way off. 2 stacks per 10 seconds works out to 12 stacks per minute, or 84 stacks in 7 minutes, not 40. Honestly, generating 8 Chi every 10 seconds is impossible unless you're using Soothing/Enveloping, as any other method would take 1 second per Chi to generate and 1 second per 2 Chi to spend, resulting in 8 Chi every 12 seconds only if you're literally spamming abilities for an entire fight. If you want to take Crit into account you also have to take the GCD the drink expends, meaning that you'd have to generate and spend 6 Chi every 9 seconds to reach maximum capacity (assuming 33% Crit, which is very generous), which is the absolute limit for glyphed Mana Tea spending.

    In short, the only way you can end up with excess stacks is if you're not actually using the cooldown AND spamming abilities non-stop, which is just being a bad healer at that point.
    84 stacks, 42 total uses however one will be at t=0 (impossible mana tea is cleared on entering a fight) and the final is at t=420 which is useless. While it would be very improbable in current gear to reliably out generate the glyph, it doesn't stop the fact there is a hard cap on the amount of mana it will generate for you in x seconds. This is the trade off that glyph gives you, it stops you from being able to bank mana tea.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Dumbfoundead View Post
    84 stacks, 42 total uses however one will be at t=0 (impossible mana tea is cleared on entering a fight) and the final is at t=420 which is useless. While it would be very improbable in current gear to reliably out generate the glyph, it doesn't stop the fact there is a hard cap on the amount of mana it will generate for you in x seconds. This is the trade off that glyph gives you, it stops you from being able to bank mana tea.
    What's a fact is that that hard cap doesn't matter if you're not awful.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by gnorrior View Post
    As has been said, max chi gen/spend is 6 chi/9s, requiring 33% crit to (on average) hit the cap of glyph consumption. Beyond that, it requires constant casting for the entire fight which happens all of: Never.
    Further, the best reason for the glyph is that it allows you to regen mana during high healing intensity phases w/o spending a lot of globals. For example, I often have high mana and some amount (around five for example) mana tea stacks going into, say, empress P3 or protectors heroic boss 3. If it wasn't glyphed I'd be unable to really regen any mana during those phases (one global of ten is one thing, but a large set of globals mid-damage phase? not happening.) Since a lot of those high damage phases tend to be at the end of a fight, using the glyph means you would likely end a fight with a lot of stacks. As such, the glyph gains value since it lets you consume more stacks/at more times in the fight (using less globals, also being instant, it means you will continue to eminence heal while regenning mana.)
    I'm not discrediting the glyph, all I'm saying is there's a clear trade off and obviously scenarios where it is right and wrong to use it.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-09 at 10:48 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreyo View Post
    What's a fact is that that hard cap doesn't matter if you're not awful.
    Well that depends mate, I'd consider anyone using it on a fight with cuts in damage awful for wasting globals during healing. That's just one scenario.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Dumbfoundead View Post
    I'm not discrediting the glyph, all I'm saying is there's a clear trade off and obviously scenarios where it is right and wrong to use it.
    Give one scenario where it is wrong to use the glyph and that channeling is better. Not a theoretical one, but one that actually exists in this tier.

    You're also side stepping your math again, gear is irrelevant in generating too much Mana Tea because the only thing that affects it is Crit, and the cap for it is beyond our reach in this tier or possibly even the next, and that's assuming a healing paradigm that you will never find yourself using.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    Give one scenario where it is wrong to use the glyph and that channeling is better. Not a theoretical one, but one that actually exists in this tier.

    You're also side stepping your math again, gear is irrelevant in generating too much Mana Tea because the only thing that affects it is Crit, and the cap for it is beyond our reach in this tier or possibly even the next, and that's assuming a healing paradigm that you will never find yourself using.
    I don't use it on Sha of Fear Heroic. The last phase consists of periods of heavy damage (Huddle and/or multiple adds) and other periods of no damage at all (Submerge).

    Stocking up on 20 stacks before Phase 2 enables you to keep them going into Phase 2 and allow the buff to give you full mana, meaning you effectively start with almost double your mana pool.

    This is the only fight where I found it to be amazing to not glyph it, other fights I wouldn't do without it. But I can guess there will be more fights in the future that favour not glyphing it.
    Last edited by Redfern; 2013-01-09 at 11:27 PM.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    Give one scenario where it is wrong to use the glyph and that channeling is better. Not a theoretical one, but one that actually exists in this tier.

    You're also side stepping your math again, gear is irrelevant in generating too much Mana Tea because the only thing that affects it is Crit, and the cap for it is beyond our reach in this tier or possibly even the next, and that's assuming a healing paradigm that you will never find yourself using.
    How does this even matter? Even if Redfern didn't supply a perfectly valid example and there wasn't one this tier, it's important that the OP knows when and how the glyph should or shouldn't be used. I.e. it refuses you the ability to bank mana tea because it restricts the mana return through it's 10 second cooldown in a given amount of time.

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