1. #1
    Herald of the Titans Lovestar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    2,851

    Does the strong Execute hurt Warrior PvE performance pre-20?

    I love my Warrior alt, but I don't follow the high-end number-jockeying aspect of WoW so I'm ignorant of what class is "best" for what at the top-end, etc. etc. So this came up in a Hunter discussion:
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    Warrior's Execute is very impractical most of the time. We in my previous guild had to swap our Warrior out at the start of Mogushan Vaults on Feng because the first phase was taking too long. We were all under geared and so were our healers, those one or two extra epicentres really hurt. After swapping him out we instantly saw major improvements and got him down.
    Is this really that big a deal? I ask because I don't have the high-end experience to safely argue based on personal experience. However, on my Fury I find I perform pretty competitively even when I don't get an indulgent Execute phase as long as I properly manage all the right stuff (Rage, CDs, proc-banking, etc. with responsible CSmash windows).

    I'm aware things can change sharply in the higher levels and Heroic-progression scene, though, and I don't want to be ignorant in my replies. So, is this true? Do Warriors on competitive content suffer pre-20 because of their Execute damage?

  2. #2
    If they did the epicenter phase correctly the damage is actually pretty low. If you have a tank who can't stun or one who can't use barrier then that's your problem, not low p1 dps.

    That being said, execute phase is out of control for warriors haha

  3. #3
    I usually sustain top 5 damage on just about every fight in 25 man before execute phase. If I don't, it's because I either messed up or I got bad crits, usually poor BT crit rate is the culprit. You have to use all the tools available to you to squeeze out extra damage, things like proper berserker stance and heroic leap usage make the difference between sustaining top 5 damage and dropping to #10-15 on the meters. Just remember, fury is a totally random (RNG) spec that relies solely on crit, so you won't always be top. Although, anyone with half a brain can check your BT/CS crits (enrage uptime) to determine why you did low DPS on certain pulls.

    If you had to sit the warrior in your guild out in order to get past the epicenter phase, it's either a tank issue (not interrupting/using barrier properly) or the warrior is just playing badly, nothing to do with the class.

  4. #4
    DPS above 20% is a bit lower than some other classes, but it doesn't hurt the class imo. The last 20% are often quite tough, so a lot of damage coming from our execute phase isn't necessarily a bad thing (it might depend on the encounter though). I prefer TG over SMF, as it's a bit more balanced between pre and post 20%. If they "had to replace a warrior" because of that reason, the warrior is not the problem (maybe the player, but not the class).

  5. #5
    We had to do the same thing with our Warrior when we were first attempting Heroic Feng.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Lovestar View Post
    I love my Warrior alt, but I don't follow the high-end number-jockeying aspect of WoW so I'm ignorant of what class is "best" for what at the top-end, etc. etc. So this came up in a Hunter discussion:


    Is this really that big a deal? I ask because I don't have the high-end experience to safely argue based on personal experience. However, on my Fury I find I perform pretty competitively even when I don't get an indulgent Execute phase as long as I properly manage all the right stuff (Rage, CDs, proc-banking, etc. with responsible CSmash windows).

    I'm aware things can change sharply in the higher levels and Heroic-progression scene, though, and I don't want to be ignorant in my replies. So, is this true? Do Warriors on competitive content suffer pre-20 because of their Execute damage?
    You are not supposed to take any Epicenter against Feng. Except, maybe, for the last one if you need the bubble to be up for the next phase.
    In general, warriors are fin even above 20%. In this example, your tanks are bad and they should feel bad.

  7. #7
    Scarab Lord Gandrake's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Posts
    4,303
    I think it was more of a problem at the beginning of the expansion, but now that most normal bis warriors are running around with 60-70% crit chance on BT, things have evened themselves out.

    I mean, sometimes RNG still happens but I feel a lot better about the class with a 4set bonus and twelve thousand crit.
    http://www.heroicstrike.org/ - Goodnight, sweet prince

    Melee isn't awful for Challenge Modes; you are. Melee players are a liability for the windows of time in which a tank keeps an enemy mob faced towards them, resulting in an exorbitant loss of damage or death. Melee players are a liability for people who keep rooting mobs next to them. Melee are a liability to a healer that cannot heal.

  8. #8
    Stood in the Fire
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Northern Finland
    Posts
    442
    And Arms is shit all the way from 100-0% boss hp.. You could say it isnt that bad, but it is the worst performing DPS spec in the game, over 25% difference to the best.

  9. #9
    Warrior's Execute is very impractical most of the time. We in my previous guild had to swap our Warrior out at the start of Mogushan Vaults on Feng because the first phase was taking too long. We were all under geared and so were our healers, those one or two extra epicentres really hurt. After swapping him out we instantly saw major improvements and got him down.
    This is dumb. Maybe their warrior was bad, and they needed to swap him out for that. Warriors are very obviously strongest at the end of a fight, but at the beginning of a fight we're also incredibly strong, since we can usually pop everything with our pre-pot, too. There are times I open up on a boss at the very start and burst up to 250k+ DPS, and it takes a while for me to drop back down under 100k.

    Warriors are very strong outside of execute range. Bringing executes into the equation is why SMF is above every other spec right now aside from arcane and affliction. Before that, the'yre still above average, and likely the top spec at the very beginning of a fight, too, when they pop prepot, reck, skull, bloodbath, trinket/springs, deadly calm, dragon roar, csmash, heroic leap, etc.

    As has been said before, the earth phase is a joke and a great time for healers to regen some mana. No epicenter should go off.

  10. #10
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    2,816
    I'll say hell no. Just look at logs.

    Arms suffers from log bias, it's honestly not as bad as people seem to think. That being said, I'd be fury if I had 2 equal tier 1 handers, or a 502 starshatter.

    Another thing of note is for an ability that is only usable at 20%, doing 20% of the damage over a fight (which is actually rare) doesn't seem OP IMO, especially when its one ability that is replacing a few others. (During execute, you're not using HS, Slam at all, and only using OP if you need to fill that GCD). MS would be a higher % of damage as well if one never used OP, for example.
    Last edited by Darkfriend; 2013-01-08 at 09:17 PM.

  11. #11
    High Overlord Roseby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Ooking in the Dook
    Posts
    145
    No we do not. We are wholly competitive above 20 percent and imo, the best class sub 20 percent.
    Yes, specs are better post 20 percent (or else Warriors would be the overall top spec mathematically), but as a whole we are highly competitive.

    Perhaps you weren't getting all the oomph you could have from that Warrior.
    Roseby - Fury/Arms Warrior
    Jobei - Elemental Shaman

    Requiel's #1 Fan.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Gromnak View Post
    I usually sustain top 5 damage on just about every fight in 25 man before execute phase.
    Would claim that this really depends on the raid you are with and rng. Having also a quite nice amount of "orange" rankings considering my "bad" gear I am still usually 5-10 before the execute phase as there are quite a couple classes that can produce just as good numbers or even better once before the ridiculous execute reck spike.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    Arms suffers from log bias, it's honestly not as bad as people seem to think. That being said, I'd be fury if I had 2 equal tier 1 handers, or a 502 starshatter.
    Well if it isn't as bad it shouldn't be really hard to proof.
    I don't think that it is a that big issue currently. Might have to see what the next tier brings as a lot of current fights are really warrior friendly due to gimmicks like high rage income sub 20% or damage increases and what not. Don't see a possible fix anyways during an expansion.

  13. #13
    Don't forget that another thing execute phase has going for it is simplicity, especially in comparison to fury's rotation pre-20. It's really not hard for a mediocre warrior to pull good numbers during execute and boost his overall dps to a level that seems adequate for raids. If you pull out all the stops pre-20 though the dps difference isn't as big.

  14. #14
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    2,816
    Quote Originally Posted by Lefrog View Post
    Don't forget that another thing execute phase has going for it is simplicity, especially in comparison to fury's rotation pre-20. It's really not hard for a mediocre warrior to pull good numbers during execute and boost his overall dps to a level that seems adequate for raids. If you pull out all the stops pre-20 though the dps difference isn't as big.
    That was one of my many complaint with the moron over at wow insider's article about why execute is bad. Only bad warriors have execute being 30% of their damage because they are using the other abilities wrong. Realistically it should be closer to 17-20%, depending on the fight gimicks, length of execute phase, whether lei shin/relic proc at the right time etc.

    As for comparing arms and fury DPS, on a fairly normal single target fight like Feng Heroic, I pulled 110k DPS (killing no shadow adds). I also messed up my execute phase not paying attention. Comparing that to the top fury, who all outgear me, I went to look at one of the 125k+ fury parses, who had ~2 item levels on me but also had a 510 MH and 504 OH SMF V. my 504 Shin'ka. Knowing that SMF is stronger than arms, I'm more curious to know exactly how much stronger, all things being equal.
    Last edited by Darkfriend; 2013-01-09 at 10:47 PM.

  15. #15

    Nah it doesn't that much

    I feel that warriors are very strong per 20% I have no problems keeping up, but your warrior should have helped you out in the start of feng cause he should have used his cooldowns which should but him #1 in the start, but as a undergeared player you will not reach high damage out of cooldowns cause you won't have many raging blows which is a big damage out put

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    That was one of my many complaint with the moron over at wow insider's article about why execute is bad. Only bad warriors have execute being 30% of their damage because they are using the other abilities wrong. Realistically it should be closer to 17-20%, depending on the fight gimicks, length of execute phase, whether lei shin/relic proc at the right time etc.
    Still, on a single target fight, Execute is supposed to be your second source of damage (the first being melee strikes).

  17. #17
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    2,816
    Quote Originally Posted by Senen View Post
    Still, on a single target fight, Execute is supposed to be your second source of damage (the first being melee strikes).
    Well it depends, I was going off Arms numbers. I havn't checked my Fury logs to see what % it gets to on the average fight.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •