Do Bears really need to reforge Hit / Expertise / Crit

[Arbs]

I'm looking to bring up a discussion just like the title says: Do Bears really need to reforge Crit / Hit / Expertise?

Before I begin I have been playing a Bear since Black Temple I have played a Bear for the majority of my time in WoW before that I played a Enhancment Shaman from the beginning of WoW until SSC/TK Era, Bears have gone through many changes & from stacking Agility / Dodge to Stacking Stam / Dodge or all 3 at once to having Mastery & Reforging. Stam > Agility > Mastery > Dodge they have been are main stats to follow for such along time and recently in Mists of Pandaria, Bears have been rolling with what I call Bear Easy Mode - Crit / Hit / Expertise, As a Tank has 0 need for Hit or Expertise caps, Yes Bears are the weakest Tanks outta all 5 tank specs, But I still don't understand why Bears have to use this self proclaimed Easy Mode where your supplied with high amount of rage that you can already get from reforging, gemming & enchanting into your main 4 stats already (Stam > Agility > Mastery > Dodge) that people have been following for years.

So I'm hoping to hear from some insightful people from both sides if so, why this self proclaimed easy mode is the way to go & how Stam > Agility > Mastery > Dodge isn't a vaiable way anymore. I have been rolling with my same Mitigation Build during this tier in Mists same I did during MoP beta raid testing & I have found no problems in be able to mitigate damage & keep myself alive with having the normal dodge / mastery reforge build. I personally have found that knowing my rotation as a Tank, being able to manage my CDs without having to pop any unless I really need it, knowing when & when not to pop savage defense. I personally find reforging Hit / Expertise / Crit is useless & takes the skill / knowledge out of knowing what a Bear is about.

Everyone isn't the same, people have different skill levels & how to play there class, but this one subject has been bugging me the most & I have yet to find another bear that understand what i'm trying to say. I'm hoping someone here will be able to shed some light on this subject as I try to know every inch of my class everyday, I take notes on all changes and try to add them into my playstyle & see if there any tweaks I need to make. In all honesty I rather quit my Bear and reroll back to my Shaman or Monk than ever use the self proclaimed easy mode.

Thank You for your time

[herpecin]

active mitigation means you need to actually hit things to take less damage.

stam is mostly pointless to gear for right now, you get plenty just from regular gear. agi gems are 50% of what secondary stat gems give.

[Arbs]

active mitigation means you need to actually hit things to take less damage.

stam is mostly pointless to gear for right now, you get plenty just from regular gear. agi gems are 50% of what secondary stat gems give.

I do this already & I don't take that much damage as it is and I have Mastery / Dodge reforged.

[Arielle]

Yes Bears are the weakest Tanks outta all 5 tank specs

According to who? You? I guarantee you have no actual empirical data to back up this claim.

But I still don't understand why Bears have to use this self proclaimed Easy Mode where your supplied with high amount of rage that you can already get from reforging, gemming & enchanting into your main 4 stats already (Stam > Agility > Mastery > Dodge) that people have been following for years.

Stamina provides 0 mitigative benefit. Agility's value is significantly deflated on any fight where you can't avoid a large portion of the incoming damage (Lei Shi and Stone Guards being the obvious examples). Mastery and Dodge are also worthless on such fights, with Dodge also being less valuable on Garalon since you can't gain Vengeance from avoided Cleaves.

In terms of pure damage reduction, once you get to about 496 ilvl or so you should have enough RPS from base stats to maintain SD, but that's it. You'll never have enough Rage to use T&C (except during Incarnation or Berserk), let alone bleed any extra into FR. It also makes you substantially less self reliant than an RPS build.

In 10m, it's also a huge detriment to your raid team. Tank DPS is hugely important in 10m, especially on fights with tight enrage timers. Going Dodge/Mastery over RPS stats just means you do significantly less DPS while having a marginally superior surivability gain over a RPS build where you actually know what you're doing.

You should also NEVER gem Agility over a secondary stat, and only gem Stamina to meet socket bonuses or if you actually need the HP for some reason (which you don't for any normal modes, and very few heroics - at least on 10m).

I personally find reforging Hit / Expertise / Crit is useless & takes the skill / knowledge out of knowing what a Bear is about.

So you find the build that gives you more resources to make choices with less skillful than a build which is completely and 100% passive.

K.

[Arbs]

Good thing I have a WW Monk geared, Like I have in bold I rather retire my Bear Tank than have to be forced to Hit/Expertise cap as Bear

Ty for the reply, very well done post.

[Vulpei]

Monks have to hitcap too, and should exp cap, so no luck there.

[Deleted]

Why is it so much worse to reforge hit/expertise/crit as a druid, than to go for hit/expertise/haste on a monk?

[Arbs]

My Monk is Windwalker, I only tanked ever on my Bear and had tanked on him since Black Temple until this Tier where I have held back on him.

[Deleted]

You make very little sense..

Bears are by far not the weakest tank for example. And as Arielle said, I too fail to see how more rage is 'easier' when it allows you greater options and requires you to actually properly spend your rage. Gemming dodge or stamina gives you nothing, and is completely passive.. why would this require any skill?

Stop calling it 'self proclaimed easy mode' - Ive never heard ANYONE ever refer to it like this except you - which in all honesty just leads me to believe youre a fool! A fool I say!

What kind of content are you running where you feel that youre not taking that much damage? If youre finding it that easy, perhaps try and knock it up a notch (go with fewer healers, solo tank where possible etc).

Do not insult others because you do not agree with them. Infracted.

[Arbs]

You make very little sense..

Bears are by far not the weakest tank for example. And as Arielle said, I too fail to see how more rage is 'easier' when it allows you greater options and requires you to actually properly spend your rage. Gemming dodge or stamina gives you nothing, and is completely passive.. why would this require any skill?

Stop calling it 'self proclaimed easy mode' - Ive never heard ANYONE ever refer to it like this except you - which in all honesty just leads me to believe youre a fool! A fool I say!

What kind of content are you running where you feel that youre not taking that much damage? If youre finding it that easy, perhaps try and knock it up a notch (go with fewer healers, solo tank where possible etc).

Thats way I called it self proclaimed, if you hadn't got the memo,

But atleast Arielle posted something worth reading, that I have taken note & resonable unlike like yourself.
Thanks for nothing

[Deleted]

Thats way I called it self proclaimed, if you hadn't got the memo,

But atleast Arielle posted something worth reading, that I have taken note & resonable unlike like yourself.
Thanks for nothing

I think the confusion comes from the fact that you don't usually use the term "self proclaimed" about yourself.

[Arbs]

According to who? You? I guarantee you have no actual empirical data to back up this claim.


Stamina provides 0 mitigative benefit. Agility's value is significantly deflated on any fight where you can't avoid a large portion of the incoming damage (Lei Shi and Stone Guards being the obvious examples). Mastery and Dodge are also worthless on such fights, with Dodge also being less valuable on Garalon since you can't gain Vengeance from avoided Cleaves.

In terms of pure damage reduction, once you get to about 496 ilvl or so you should have enough RPS from base stats to maintain SD, but that's it. You'll never have enough Rage to use T&C (except during Incarnation or Berserk), let alone bleed any extra into FR. It also makes you substantially less self reliant than an RPS build.

In 10m, it's also a huge detriment to your raid team. Tank DPS is hugely important in 10m, especially on fights with tight enrage timers. Going Dodge/Mastery over RPS stats just means you do significantly less DPS while having a marginally superior surivability gain over a RPS build where you actually know what you're doing.

You should also NEVER gem Agility over a secondary stat, and only gem Stamina to meet socket bonuses or if you actually need the HP for some reason (which you don't for any normal modes, and very few heroics - at least on 10m).


So you find the build that gives you more resources to make choices with less skillful than a build which is completely and 100% passive.

K.

I really do appreciate the post and It has all been noted, but I do still feel indifferent about many things. But like I said we all have different play styles on what we enjoy & want to do.

---------- Post added 2013-01-07 at 04:59 AM ----------

I think the confusion comes from the fact that you don't usually use the term "self proclaimed" about yourself.

self-pro·claimed
adj.
So called by oneself; self-styled.

self-proclaimed
adj
proclaimed or described by oneself

Well whats the point in calling it self proclaimed than if it can't be about ones own opinion of something that he will says or think in that way. No harm is done I think

[Deleted]

I really do appreciate the post and It has all been noted, but I do still feel indifferent about many things. But like I said we all have different play styles on what we enjoy & want to do.

---------- Post added 2013-01-07 at 04:59 AM ----------



self-pro·claimed
adj.
So called by oneself; self-styled.

self-proclaimed
adj
proclaimed or described by oneself

Looks like its about ones self (Myself indeed)

The term is usually used about others. Thanks for being patronizing though. Have a good day.

[Phototropic]

self-pro·claimed
adj.
So called by oneself; self-styled.

self-proclaimed
adj
proclaimed or described by oneself

Well whats the point in calling it self proclaimed than if it can't be about ones own opinion of something that he will says or think in that way. No harm is done I think

Whilst we're arguing semantics; it's self proclaimed usually because the subject matter proclaims it, not the one suggesting the point. As a pure example, the Bible self proclaims truth; someone saying that the Bible is truth is not self proclaiming.

OT: What's the difference between reforging to stats A, B, and C instead of D, E, and F? After all, stats are stats... arguing that the latter is better when the former affords more options is silly.

[Arbs]

Ok thanks to some people the topic has already gone topic. But anyway if people do wanna supply some more feedback or there suggest it is welcomed

---------- Post added 2013-01-07 at 05:11 AM ----------

Whilst we're arguing semantics; it's self proclaimed usually because the subject matter proclaims it, not the one suggesting the point. As a pure example, the Bible self proclaims truth; someone saying that the Bible is truth is not self proclaiming.

OT: What's the difference between reforging to stats A, B, and C instead of D, E, and F? After all, stats are stats... arguing that the latter is better when the former affords more options is silly.

You said of true words there

But what if you feel more comfortable with A, B, C than D, E, F. Shouldn't I just continue to do whats more comfortable to me?
Knowing more about one kind of a style than another shouldn't hurt to much.

[Deleted]

You can do whatever you wish, it's your character and if you so wish you could also go ahead and reforge everything into spirit -if that's comfortable for you. There's one thing arguing that you like something, it's another thing to claim it's the proper way of gearing (or call other ways of gearing to be easy mode).

not sure what kind of feedback youre interested in, ive personally been both agi stacking and crit stacking this tier and Ive personally liked crit more. It affords more options and makes the rotation/active mitigation -more- fun. I havent tried stamina stacking because Ive never seen the point.

Another thing, I think Arielle somewhere on these forums (or was it someone else, I forgot) showed that point-per-point crit will give you more RPS than exp/hit cap, but the reason most bears (atleast I know I do) go for hit and expertise is that reliable rage is better than having more total rage overall.


In the end noone is forcing you to do anything, and Im still confused as to what kind of feedback youre looking for. Any kind of gearing is viable, but there's only a few that are optimal(ish).

[Arbs]

You can do whatever you wish, it's your character and if you so wish you could also go ahead and reforge everything into spirit -if that's comfortable for you. There's one thing arguing that you like something, it's another thing to claim it's the proper way of gearing (or call other ways of gearing to be easy mode).

not sure what kind of feedback youre interested in, ive personally been both agi stacking and crit stacking this tier and Ive personally liked crit more. It affords more options and makes the rotation/active mitigation -more- fun. I havent tried stamina stacking because Ive never seen the point.

Another thing, I think Arielle somewhere on these forums (or was it someone else, I forgot) showed that point-per-point crit will give you more RPS than exp/hit cap, but the reason most bears (atleast I know I do) go for hit and expertise is that reliable rage is better than having more total rage overall.


In the end noone is forcing you to do anything, and Im still confused as to what kind of feedback youre looking for. Any kind of gearing is viable, but there's only a few that are optimal(ish).

Now I wish you posted this the first time, Your feedback has been noted aswell
Thank you

I do apologizes If was rude in anyway

[Milkyz]

As a fellow Bear, here are my insights. They mostly overlap/reinforces what Arielle has said, considering I use incbear.com as one of my main theorycraft resources.

Early MoP I went towards Heavy Mastery stacking to reduce spike damage. I didn't have that much trouble I guess, but sometimes I'd run into a situation where I still had SD charges left up and they would be useful, but my Health was already at a threshold where FR would provide a better option. So I often wondered if playing with more RPS would provide more benefit.

Back then, tho, there wasn't Tooth and Claw. So nowadays you can keep your SD up for when it's needed and expend your extra rage into FR or TnC based on your health, necessity for damage, if you're OTing, heavy Vengeance burst, raid-wide damage.

On top of that, we have damage. Tank damage is very important. Considering 10-man, I'd say it's as important as surviving, considering how tight some enrage timers are this tier.

On a further note, Mastery and Dodge don't benefit your DPS/Healing potential during Heart of the Wild.

Hope you stay strong and stick to your bear!

[Arbs]

As a fellow Bear, here are my insights. They mostly overlap/reinforces what Arielle has said, considering I use incbear.com as one of my main theorycraft resources.

Early MoP I went towards Heavy Mastery stacking to reduce spike damage. I didn't have that much trouble I guess, but sometimes I'd run into a situation where I still had SD charges left up and they would be useful, but my Health was already at a threshold where FR would provide a better option. So I often wondered if playing with more RPS would provide more benefit.

Back then, tho, there wasn't Tooth and Claw. So nowadays you can keep your SD up for when it's needed and expend your extra rage into FR or TnC based on your health, necessity for damage, if you're OTing, heavy Vengeance burst, raid-wide damage.

On top of that, we have damage. Tank damage is very important. Considering 10-man, I'd say it's as important as surviving, considering how tight some enrage timers are this tier.

On a further note, Mastery and Dodge don't benefit your DPS/Healing potential during Heart of the Wild.

Hope you stay strong and stick to your bear!

Ty Milk for your insights, I have it all noted & written down aswell

I still use my Bear, but its just not my main raider this tier, I am planning on Tanking on it again in 5.2, but I wanted some insight from fellow Bear Tanks on why Dodge / Mastery isn't as viable as it use to be and why it all about Crit/Hit/Expertise.

[Raugnaut]

New tanking mechanics, new styles of tanking. Now, I didn't tank during TBC (I was resto), but I picked up Bear during Wrath, and kept it till today (Had to drop my resto set in exchange for a feral).

Now.. From Wrath, majority of the tiers, you went with the mitigation stats. It wasn't until ICC that Stamina became what you HAD to have, which was mostly because the bosses were hitting for extreme amounts of damage (Over 50% of health per hit without stam stacking, which blizzard acknowledged as a problem, and fixed with the cata model of healing). Except for that single tier during Wrath, there was enough Stamina on gear that you didn't need to stack it, mitigation was better. Cata introduced the whole Mastery route, and during that time, Crit, Hit, AND expertise were good stats to have (The Priority was either Agi> dodge> Mastery> Crit=Expertise(Before soft cap)>Hit=Expertise(After soft cap)>>>>>Haste.)

Mists, however, changed how ALL classes tanked, except for DKs. With the Active Mitigation model, currently, ALL tanks, sans DKs, favor Hit, and Expertise capping. Warriors, after getting those caps, go for mastery/dodge/parry, possibly strength in some situations (which is no longer a bad tanking stat to have as a warrior). Prot paladins can go for haste, or dodge/parry/mastery, possibly strength. Monks, the new tanks, go Hit/expertise caps, and then haste/crit. Dodge, Parry, and especially Mastery are stats you just dont have. And finally, Druids should get hit/expertise caps, and then go crit OR haste (with the TC addition, haste becomes a very good stat for druids, once you reach a certain amount of crit).

Agility just isn't as good anymore- Crit rating gives close to 3x as much crit per point, and for gemming, comes in double the amount over Agility. Dodge rating just isn't as good as mitigating damage compared to Crit, due to Savage Defense. (Its kinda like Crit for BrM Monks compared to dodge, except crit is significantly less powerful then druid's crit). Mastery, also not as good. 5.2 might buff it up to be a decent stat, but atm, its much like mastery for a small number of dps classes, its merely there and extra. The difference between having no mastery, and reforging/gemming pure mastery, is taking 5-10% less damage from every melee attack, except you take more melee attacks, averaging out the damage to be the same if you stacked crit, dodge, agility, or any other stat instead. And since Mastery and Dodge do NOTHING against magical and bleed damage, thier value falls even more.

Expansion changed, new style of tanking was made, new gearing is needed. To be exact, the reason that crit/hit/expertise/haste is so good is BECAUSE of the active mitigation model. During TBC, Wrath, Cata, any fight with magic damage, you just have to take it to the face and hope your healers heal you through it. Now? Frenzied Regen allows you to do your own healing. On Stone Guard, Heroic, I did 18% of the raids total healing- around 63% of healing done to me. If I had gone Mastery, Dodge, or Agility, while I would have taken SLIGHTLY less overall damage, I probably would have only done 7% of the raids healing, and perhaps 33% or so of healing done to me, thus making my healers work that much harder to keep me alive, potentially causing more wipes simply because my healing to myself wasn't there (There was a number of pulls where a healer stood in the mine, died, and I could pop a few more CDs to keep myself up. Had I have been going anything but crit, I probably would have died every time the healer died). So, yea, Active Mitigation. You can now HEAL yourself to mitigate non-melee damage, and should you be tanking lots of melee damage, well, you can have an average of about 29.7% dodge throughout the fight. If you stacked NOTHING but dodge, you wouldn't get CLOSE to this amount of extra dodge atm. Finally, if you look at it as being short-term dodge, you can have 45% dodge for about 36 seconds straight before you tapper off to an average of 29.7% dodge. Thus, stacking CRIT gives you more dodge then stacking dodge, and allows you to have "burst" dodge for a longish period of time.

Finally, imo, Wrath/TBC style of tanking was "e-z mode". Seriously. All the work for mitigation was in the stats. You get the stats on your gear, then you afk the rest of the fight- if you hold threat, all is good. Cata was a bit more interesting, there was a, however small, level of difference between pushing buttons and tabbing out once you got aggro lead. Mists is no-where need ez mode. You have to be at your keyboard, making decisions to get the job done (10 man, should you maximize your SD usage, should you spam FR, can you afford to sacrifice some mitigation for extra damage by spamming Maul, ect). Crit is king stat until you hit the hard cap.

One last thing- if you self-proclaim yourself to be unkillable, are you actually unkillable? Thats the problem with self-proclamations without any backup- the entire world is out there to prove you wrong.