1. #1
    Blademaster MurdiStorm's Avatar
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    Frost PvE advices

    Hello folks. I'm a frost mage that recently joined a decent 10 man guild. I pulled some horrible numbers at first, but I blamed it all on gear. After a few MsV normal runs and couple of LFRs, I managed to steadily improve my equipment and, naturally, my gear. Still, I cannot help but feel that there's something rotten in my rotation or play style as I'm constantly beaten on the logs by my guild mates.

    Can you help me out with a few good tips, please? I am still getting used to the hectic play style of this class, and your advices and experience can turn the tides at the next boss we're going to kill.

    Here's my armory http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Valesh/simple

    And here's our WoL for this month http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/102794/

    Any advices are welcome. Thanks for reading and helping out a fellow apprentice.

  2. #2
    I'd check out some of the stuff on http://www.noxxic.com/wow/pve/mage/frost
    It gives suggestions for talents, what your "optimal" rotation and cd usage is, as well as your stat priorities. Checking out Icy Veins' stuff would be a good decision as well.

  3. #3
    looks like you've got your help
    Last edited by jpr729; 2013-01-07 at 03:34 PM.

  4. #4
    Blademaster MurdiStorm's Avatar
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    Thanks for your input. I did visit both of the sites before embarking on my raiding journey and tried to do as best as I could. Still, fighting bosses and tracking all those cooldowns AND be mindful of the fight mechanics at the same time is much more different than testing your dpsing ability on dummies. What I'm really looking for is particular advices for each encounter, hence the WoL link. I should've worded my original post differently, I guess.

  5. #5
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    I'm just look at the Noxxic guide, they still give some misunderstanding information:

    • They say that glyph of Icy Veins is [optional]. But it's really require after haste breakpoint (see kuni's guide here)
    • They don't even tell a word about glyph of Water Elemental. It's a live saver in all movement fight.
    • They [recommend] glyph that are more optional than anything.
    • They give talent without giving a word about the other choice.
    • They logically include Nether Tempest in there AOE rotation where Frost Bomb is better.

    Go read Kuni's guide.
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  6. #6
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    I'm not a huge fan of IW at the best of times, but you seem to be missing a fair few of the bubbles. Not as bad on other fights, but still significant. Invoc is still frost's default talent, though. It pushes haste's value to us even higher than it would be without it.

    You're gemmed int/crit in your chest, and pure hit in a few sockets while being over hit cap. You're also missing one of your JC gems and a belt buckle. Realize you gain 1% expertise from human racial with that blade.

    You haven't reforged as far into haste as you can, see first point.

    Mining doesn't provide a DPS boost, but minor issue.

    You've got glyph of fire blast, and used it a few times on frost bomb. It was hotfixed a few weeks ago to lower the damage by half when detonated like that.

    Your trinkets are garbage, but I know you can't help that. I raided 10 for a long time and know the pain of drops there. Try and grab a darkmoon card if you can, and upgrade the blue since JP is cheap.



    All in all, it seems to be a bunch of little mistakes more than anything else, really. Per-fight specifics I can't really help you with. I haven't set foot in MSV in months, and reg HoF 10 is different enough from H HoF 25 that I'm not sure that much of what I'd say is useful. I'd start trying to use scorch over PoM on just about every fight though. PoM's benefit on a stand and burn fight is fairly negligible in practice as frost, where scorch can be used on every fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by ColbaneX View Post
    I'd check out some of the stuff on http://www.noxxic.com/wow/pve/mage/frost
    Nope.

  7. #7
    Brewmaster Methusula's Avatar
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    A cursory glance at you armory would suggest you need a reforge mod like reforge lite. You have a lot of gear that hasn't been touched and could pick up a good deal of haste from that. Cheap leg enchant, no belt buckle, missing jc gem, your other gems are all over the place, you need int to bracers, Jade Spirit on wep, glyph of water elemental rather than fire blast. I'm sure I'm missing more and judging by how poorly put together your toon is, I'd guess your rotation and dps uptime could use work(didnt look at logs). You are taking steps to improve yourself which is good. Also, if you are struggling with frost's proc management, Arcane may be more suitable. It's less forgiving on movement fights, but you will be micro managing procs a lot less. If you gem and reforge straight haste, you can swap between arcane and frost and have pretty well optimized gear either way.

    edit: went to logs and as I suspected, your dps uptime is by far the lowest in the raid. You have to always be casting. Spam Frostbolt in situations you don't know what to do. It's better to be casting the wrong thing than nothing. Use water ele freeze to generate FoF procs ON CD. If you know you are going to need to move, save a FoF proc for that. As Kuni said, use invocation for frost. Make sure you use your bomb and orb on cd. The exception on orb would be an aoe burst situation.
    Last edited by Methusula; 2013-01-07 at 03:42 PM.
    Originally Posted by spaace
    I'm REALLY starting to get annoying with all the ignorance on these forums lately.

  8. #8
    Blademaster MurdiStorm's Avatar
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    Thanks a lot for taking your time to reply, Kuni. I've read your guide-of-awesomeness and tried to follow it to the heart... with a few exceptions, of course . I'll see what I can do about all of the things you've pointed out, but at this time they're not my main concern. You see, the fault does not lie with the gear, but with the player. Most of my obvious weakness is that level 90 talent, which always seems to work against me.

    Lets take zor'lok for example. I would have used invocation here, but the last time I did it was a complete disaster. I wasted those 5 seconds invocating, only to benefit from the buff for a short while as the boss kept changing platforms ( we've got amazing dps so each phase until the last doesn't take long ). IW seemed a reasonable choice as there's constant damage going on from attenuation and ferve, but I wasn't used to it so didn't use it as soon as it was available.

    Every fight has its quirks, and I've no idea how to exploit them. Encounter mechanics and that blasted level 90 talent always seem to work against me...and that's why I need the help of you veteran mages.

  9. #9
    I'm not a veteran mage but i'm raiding right now N10 on HoF playing frost and here is what i think you should do :
    - Be able to watch all your procs (Trinkets/Pot/Prof./...) so you are going to wait for at least one of them to cast your FoF/Freeze/Orb/AT+IV and not insta cast when it pops or CD is ready.
    - Keep Invocation all the maximum uptime (refresh it when it expires). Im using it on all fights right now even the 1st one on HoF (dont remember the name ).
    - Make sure you keep track of your bomb (if using NT or LB) and refresh all time.
    - Reforge to Haste and gem Int or Int+Hit.

    If you use all this, you should be able to pass normal mode MSV and HOF easily when u would have learned all encouter's mechanics.

    Hope this will help.

  10. #10
    It certainly does. I'm a healer in Murdi's guild, and I urged him to post here. I know I don't really belong here, but how much dps should a mage with Murdistorm's ilvl pull? We'll help him improve, but I'd also like a realistic goal. If he already does decent dps for his gear(Which I very much doubt he does),then it's ok. We're only doing normals.

  11. #11
    My mage has a slightly lower ilvl and I am able to pull 90+k on a fight like lfr sha in terrace. Through normal mode heart of fear (10) I am able to do between 90 to over 120k based on boss mechanics and number of adds

  12. #12
    Blademaster Netheris2k's Avatar
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    Ask Mr. Robot...(google it and you will know)...that will solve all your gear issues.

  13. #13
    Blademaster MurdiStorm's Avatar
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    My mage has a slightly lower ilvl and I am able to pull 90+k on a fight like lfr sha in terrace. Through normal mode heart of fear (10) I am able to do between 90 to over 120k based on boss mechanics and number of adds
    That's awesome, but can you please tell me how you do that? A more detailed approach to your post will give me a better understanding of what I'm doing wrong ( and what you're doing right ). Still, as frost, I somehow doubt that you can pull that amount of sustained dps unless you got some awesome trinkets in your pack and a ton of procs.

    Ask Mr. Robot...(google it and you will know)...that will solve all your gear issues.
    I did that, and he offers me a bit of an intellect increase. I very much doubt that changes much. 500 dps...maybe 1k, but no more. As I said earlier, I'm mainly interested on how to approach the fights in order to push more dps. Gear is a fringe benefit.

    Other than that, thanks for posting guys. I'll be sure to use every bit of information contained in this post to improve .

  14. #14
    Brewmaster Methusula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MurdiStorm View Post
    That's awesome, but can you please tell me how you do that? A more detailed approach to your post will give me a better understanding of what I'm doing wrong ( and what you're doing right ). Still, as frost, I somehow doubt that you can pull that amount of sustained dps unless you got some awesome trinkets in your pack and a ton of procs.



    I did that, and he offers me a bit of an intellect increase. I very much doubt that changes much. 500 dps...maybe 1k, but no more. As I said earlier, I'm mainly interested on how to approach the fights in order to push more dps. Gear is a fringe benefit.

    Other than that, thanks for posting guys. I'll be sure to use every bit of information contained in this post to improve .
    With all the issues with your gear, I'd say you would get significantly more that 500 dps increase. Your weapon enchant alone would probably do that. Also something newer players need to realize, your gear is the foundation of you performance. While improving your awareness and overall skill will always yield more dps than gear can, the gear portion is the easiest thing you can control. There is no reason to neglect it if you are serious about being better. I pointed out a good number of things you can do to improve both gear and performance and I think with what other posters have said, you have a solid springboard to move forward.
    Originally Posted by spaace
    I'm REALLY starting to get annoying with all the ignorance on these forums lately.

  15. #15
    Blademaster MurdiStorm's Avatar
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    I understand. You bring some very good points and I agree with you, even if my wallet does not. Gear and enchantments are important and easy to control, yes, but they do not yield the core of your dps. Skill does. And when you have a 483 feral kitten doing 100k dps on almost every fight and a decently geared monk doing even more, you simply ask yourself: How the hell do they do it? Their gear isn't that great. Or at least I did.

    Still, as I promised, I'll fix my char up and see where I'll get, although I doubt I'll be one of those top DPS. I don't know how you guys do it, but for me mage seems a mediocre dps compared to other classes which do not even have to maintain an ability like invocation or IW to keep their damage up.

  16. #16
    Mechagnome jtmzac's Avatar
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    A lot of good information to help you here but I'll try and give you some more specific details as to what you can do to improve.


    Talents

    Tier 1: You really should just use scorch for everything and get in the habit of spamming it as your filler if your moving with nothing else to use. This will take a while and is only a tiny bit of dps so don't prioritise it too much if your having trouble with other things.

    Tier 2: I highly recommend learning to use Temporal Shield on several fights as it's very good for specific mechanics. For exmaple on wind lord it's good for Kor'thik Strike and Rain of Blades during the second phase when all the adds are dead.

    Tier 3: None of these are really very good for boss fights but I prefer Ice Ward and you can use it on the tank to get extra freezes while killing trash and in dungeons and soloing.

    Tier 4: Cauterize is alright but Greater Invisibility is also quite good as a damage reduction and to keep you alive if you wipe.

    Tier 5: Nothing to really say here as frost bomb works on every fight on normal and does the best dps. If you get a Light of the Cosmos remember you have to use Nether tempest otherwise it won't proc.

    Tier 6: Invocation is definitly the best as frost and I really wouldn't use anything else. Make sure you only start casting evocation once the buff has run out and find an addon to track the buff. Weak auras or raven are what I recommend.


    Glyphs

    You can just use glyph of Icy Veins and Evocation for every fight and either Ice Lance or Water Elemental depending on wether it's single target or not.

    I would highly recommend using glyph of momentum as it's always better than not using it once you get used to it.


    Gear

    Like the other have said you trinkets are pretty bad but there's nothing you can do about that.

    It's worth putting the better enchants on 483 gear. Since you're raiding you really need to get a belt buckle, the better leg spellthread, the better wrist and weapon enchants and get pandaren step for your boots.

    Gemming as frost is very simple so you really need to fix yours. Red = Brilliant Primordial Ruby, Yellow = Reckless Vermilion Onyx, Blue = Veiled Imperial Amethyst.

    For reforging either get reforge lite, use askmrrobot or use rawr (its what I use). No matter how small the stat increase you get from reforging and enchants it's worth it because its always a dps increase no matter how you perform on that day compared to having had gear with less stats.


    General Tips

    If you're having trouble tracking cooldowns then just keep at it. Frost is quite predictable and once you get some practice you can almost perform the rotation blindfolded.

    I suggest you just get a lot of practice in LFR and dungeons so your very comfortable with the rotation and the base mechanics of fights before you do them on normal.

    I see by the logs you're up to wind lord and I bring it up because it's one of the hardest fights on normal. You are going to really struggle to keep up with the many mechanics of the fight until you get very comfortable with the rotation. I suggest you make a macro to stopcasting and use counterspell on your focus if your on interupt duty.

    Don't forget to keep deep freeze on your keybindings as it's quite usefull on Will of the Empetor (Freezing rages) and Amber Shaper Un'sok (freezing the small oozes).

    Timing Invocation on fights is something you'll learn in time but if you can learn the fight mechanics from lfr, video guides and the dungeon journal you'll find it much easier. In reality you will sometimes have to interupt the channel because of mechanics and you will delay using it other times.

    Your uptime is really, really bad on some fights. Some fights have mechanics which prevent you from doing damage but on most fights you should have a 90%+ uptime.



    I've tried to cover as much as possible but if you have any other questions please feel free to ask them
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  17. #17
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    For learning rotation, dungeon is a good school.
    Began with two or tree at normal speed to give you mechanics reflex, move your addon that tracks your CD, etc.
    Then began to try some rushed dungeon. With no down time between pack and pull, you will learn how to move, when to refresh your CD.
    At the end, by chaining dungeon in guild, you will learn to predic the tank and heal reaction. When to use survival CD (Ice barrier, Temporal shield), etc.

    To learn the raid fight, LFR is good but some try is always required.
    The answers is 42
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  18. #18
    Be clever with your use of Alter Time - if you've got 2 FoF procs along with FFB and are rocking your trinket procs too, that's as good a time as any to use it - use a potion before AT as well to get the most out of it

    Other than that, it's just the usual get to know the fight, time your moves correctly, evocate every damn 40 seconds

    Other posters have already delivered some solid advice here too, just keep up with it

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by MurdiStorm View Post
    That's awesome, but can you please tell me how you do that? A more detailed approach to your post will give me a better understanding of what I'm doing wrong ( and what you're doing right ). Still, as frost, I somehow doubt that you can pull that amount of sustained dps unless you got some awesome trinkets in your pack and a ton of procs.
    First of all everyone says Frost is rng or whack-a-mole. I have to disagree. I found that it is mostly knowing when to use orb/pet feeze (on fights with adds) and knowing how to "try" to line up your cd's with buffs (which I admit I am not very good at keeping track of).

    I see Frost as forcing your procs via Frost Bomb, pet freeze and orb (of course FoF procs from fb and other sources are always welcome).

    Lets take my opener for a sec. Frost Bomb/pet freeze, FBx3 (hope to get a second FoF proc), Icy Veins(glyphed), alter time, get rid of FoF and Bain freeze procs, FB, Frost Bomb,

    usually by then alter time kicks in

    Instantly use your Brainfreeze proc because your bomb will go off shortly giving you an extra "free" Brainfreeze
    Dump your 1st FoF proc and then use orb to fish for more FoF procs.

    Usually by the time my orb dies out my Icy Veins will be wearing out( or close to it) and pet freeze is ready to squeeze in another FoF procs

    I understand everyone says NT is the best dot choice for single target but I would gladly give that up for knowing exactly when I am going to have another Brainfreeze proc. It allows me to not have to cast is right away and know when I have to cast it before wasting it.

    btw I have the darkmoon trinket and lfr Terror

    I have to agree with everyone else. If you want to be good at frost the best thing to do is play it all the time. Run 5 mans and lfr. You will start to pick up on a ton of ways to squeeze out extra damage.

    Good luck
    Last edited by bostwick kingsley; 2013-01-08 at 02:16 AM.

  20. #20
    I can just tell you the same as the other guys did. Just play and learn. On the bosses nobody can tell you when to pull which CD. That's all about your groups composition/weaknesses/strategy. If you've played a boss a few times you will have to watch when it's worthy to pop a cooldown. Also go get Weakauras to track all your stuff. So e.g. I did an Aura for all my bombs (CD for frostbomb, time left on nether and living bomb). I did some Auras for all of my CDs and you can even have Auras to track all the relevant procs on your trinkets/equip (+ the time since they procced the last time). In addition to the you can build Auras for the boss mechanics you suck at (think everybody has those )

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