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  1. #21
    The cheapest prof is cooking and costs less than 1.7g... That's making 2 giant omnomberry cakes to make a profit...
    For JC if you don't resell everything you make (and don't need) you'll spend 5-8g, for the heck of it I'll go with 10g, jewelery gives about 20s profit so to be break even you need to sell 50 (peanuts)

    I can do this for all profs if you insist.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    The cheapest prof is cooking and costs less than 1.7g... That's making 2 giant omnomberry cakes to make a profit...
    For JC if you don't resell everything you make (and don't need) you'll spend 5-8g, for the heck of it I'll go with 10g, jewelery gives about 20s profit so to be break even you need to sell 50 (peanuts)

    I can do this for all profs if you insist.
    You are completely ignoring the nature of markets and doing a one time calculation that says you make 20s. No, just no... you don't make an instant 20s on each one of your crafts. If you make 10 of these and throw them up on the TP at once, there is a very good chance your gold will end up stuck on the trading post because someone will undercut you and shift the market downward. Most the time, the price will eventually return to where it was and your stuff will sell. but that could take weeks, even upwards of a month, while you wait for the other market players to back off because it became unprofitable. You now have 23g stuck in the TP to make a 2g profit over the space of weeks. There are far better ways to make gold with the TP.

  3. #23
    You seriously don't want to see my sales tab then lol, I sell over 50 pieces of jewelery a day without having to wait long. The longest an item was up for me was 4days (ghastly grinning shield skin)...

    Also you are simply wrong. Prices of jewelery (and any crafted equipment) are quite balanced. The average is around 2.8g sale price which is 20s profit. Ori ore for instance has been at 2.5s for ages now, ectos are averaging at 28.5s and orbs are between 2s and 3s depending on what one which means that making the most "expensive" jewel (amulet) will cost on average 222.5s to get a 20s profit from this you need to sell the item for (222.5+20)*1.15=278.875

  4. #24
    The Lightbringer Rukh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    Time has nothing to do with it Rukh, wether you're farming ingredients to sell or to craft it's the same amount of time spent...
    What I mean is people farm mats and craft stuff then consider it pure profit because they farmed the mats, not taking in to account the time cost. The mats they got have a certain value. That value can then either be converted by selling them directly, or by crafting them in to something else and then selling that. For most everything a person is going to use in the game, the one that actually ends out ahead is to sell the mats you farm, then buy either a drop or a crafted item off the market.

    The biggest problem is people completely ignore two major costs. 1) market listing. Its fairly expensive in this game and is actually one of the biggest prohibitions on the economy. Instead of a sales tax like in the world, its a participation tax which means you get punished for even TRYING to sell something, even if you don't actually sell it. This means that if people take risks, they're punished. If you would make a marginal profit, you end up with a loss. Unlike in the real world where you're only taxed on profit. In GW2, people can easily craft and sell something for a higher price than the cost of materials and still end up with less gold than they started, but its masked if they farm the mats.

    2) Opportunity cost- this isn't as big a problem in GW2 as most of the opportunities are crap anyways, but in the real world and in most MMOs, if you have your gold tied up for weeks at a time, that means you can't be using it to do other things to make money. This loss of opportunity is a very real and very important cost in the real world.
    Still bitter.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    Great response but this isn't what is being asked. The question is, should I sell my mats "raw" or should I "transform" them to make a higher profit.
    The only correct answer is the latter.
    It depends on the material, maybe the high end mats are different, but if we're talking stuff like iron or soft wood the prices of the "transformed" products are usually equivalent to the raw, e.g. iron ore sells for 15c each, iron ingots sell for 45c each, it takes 3 ore to make an ingot, so same price.

    Now if we're actually taking about making gear then, honestly, you can usually buy premade items on the TP for cheaper than you can make them yourself. The last time I made copper jewelry for an alt I ended up buying the settings and other components off the TP because they were something like 3c each whereas the copper to make them was going for 20c each.

    I think that's true for most crafting to some point, probably because people end up making too much of something while leveling the craft and then have to sell off the excess, which is less likely to happen with high end materials since you'd already have maxed crafting. Going by your examples it seems like you're talking about the high end stuff, which I haven't dabbled in at all. These have just been my experiences trying to level each craft to 400, past that the mats are just too rich for my blood. :P

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Rukh View Post
    1. What I mean is people farm mats and craft stuff then consider it pure profit because they farmed the mats, not taking in to account the time cost.
    2.The mats they got have a certain value. That value can then either be converted by selling them directly, or by crafting them in to something else and then selling that. For most everything a person is going to use in the game, the one that actually ends out ahead is to sell the mats you farm, then buy either a drop or a crafted item off the market.

    3.The biggest problem is people completely ignore two major costs. 1) market listing. Its fairly expensive in this game and is actually one of the biggest prohibitions on the economy. Instead of a sales tax like in the world, its a participation tax which means you get punished for even TRYING to sell something, even if you don't actually sell it. This means that if people take risks, they're punished. If you would make a marginal profit, you end up with a loss. Unlike in the real world where you're only taxed on profit. In GW2, people can easily craft and sell something for a higher price than the cost of materials and still end up with less gold than they started, but its masked if they farm the mats.

    2) Opportunity cost- this isn't as big a problem in GW2 as most of the opportunities are crap anyways, but in the real world and in most MMOs, if you have your gold tied up for weeks at a time, that means you can't be using it to do other things to make money. This loss of opportunity is a very real and very important cost in the real world.
    1. First part is true people do, I and everyone else who knows this doesn't. Second part BS, as you've quoted: farming mats to sell them directly or to change them into another item doesn't matter, it's the same time spent so TIME can be dropped for this point. The question isn't "howmuch does it cost in total to make item X" the question is "if I have mats am I better off with selling them or transforming them".
    2. Again this is BS as I've already posted the math before. You're going from the idea that you are making items "to equip and/or use for yourself" this isn't the case, it's about making items and selling them.
    3.a. "People" is a very stupid way to look at this, we are discussing "flippers" not just "people" they know the market listing cost. And to go further on this all data I use to determine profit already has taxes included, everyone can do this.
    3.b. Listing fee is a sunk cost, those exist in the real world as well. The sunk cost isn't even that great since there's no time limit, your only worry is inflation.
    This part again isn't about farming the mats or not. Before you sell you should do the math, failing to do so is simply stupid.
    3.c. The only relevant opportunity cost here is craft vs not craft. The "money being tied up on TP" is irrelevant since it happens regardless of whether you're selling raw mats or crafted items.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lane View Post
    It depends on the material, maybe the high end mats are different, but if we're talking stuff like iron or soft wood the prices of the "transformed" products are usually equivalent to the raw, e.g. iron ore sells for 15c each, iron ingots sell for 45c each, it takes 3 ore to make an ingot, so same price.

    Now if we're actually taking about making gear then, honestly, you can usually buy premade items on the TP for cheaper than you can make them yourself. The last time I made copper jewelry for an alt I ended up buying the settings and other components off the TP because they were something like 3c each whereas the copper to make them was going for 20c each.

    I think that's true for most crafting to some point, probably because people end up making too much of something while leveling the craft and then have to sell off the excess, which is less likely to happen with high end materials since you'd already have maxed crafting. Going by your examples it seems like you're talking about the high end stuff, which I haven't dabbled in at all. These have just been my experiences trying to level each craft to 400, past that the mats are just too rich for my blood. :P
    What person would be farming iron, soft wood, copper,... to begin with?
    Again we're not talking about having X amount of mats in your inventory that you want to get rid off, we are trying to make the most money.

    We are NOT talking about making gear For YOURSELF we are making gear TO SELL

    And ofcourse I'm talking about high end stuff, as I've said earlier why would someone farm mats of a lesser value to begin with?
    Also you buying parts of the mats needed doesn't mean that you shouldn't craft it. The lowest lvl jewelry that's profitable is "coral platinum ring" (4copper profit) you buy the 1platinum setting off tp while you have 8platinum ore and 1coral chunk. If you have (to make it simple) 12 platinum ore. You're going to use 8of that and keep 4 so that once you get 8again you can make another ring.

    As you may have noticed,crafting wise I focus on JC. As I said earlier you only need about 2.6g to start getting back 2.8 (one piece of jewelery) if you sell 1jewel/h and play 4h a day you can end up with 3.4g at the end of the day (3.6 if you count listing something before you stop). So in 3days(10h) you can start doubling that.
    Last edited by Meledelion; 2013-01-08 at 03:57 AM.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Karizee View Post
    Really depends on what you want.

    Crafting won't make you any gold (very very few recipes are profitable) but if you want free levels or skill points it's great.
    You don't need much gold if you're not going for a legendary but it's nice to have to buy things from the gem store.

    If you're going for a legendary, sell the mats you don't need for the gifts to buy your Icy Runestones and lodestones if you need them.
    To clarify low level crafting is not profitable, at max level it's very profitable alot more so than selling the mats, just plain buying all mats to craft the better selling exotics is a good profit alone.
    When in doubt, mumble...

  8. #28
    The Lightbringer Rukh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    3.a. "People" is a very stupid way to look at this, we are discussing "flippers" not just "people" they know the market listing cost. And to go further on this all data I use to determine profit already has taxes included, everyone can do this.

    And yet you didn't even list it when you were claiming profit off making JC rings.
    Still bitter.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Rukh View Post
    And yet you didn't even list it when you were claiming profit off making JC rings.
    Do the math, it's already calculated....

    Fuck it I'll do it for you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    Fine here come the numbers:
    Beryl orichalcum amulet price 293s
    ------------------------------------------------
    Orichalcum setting price 9.6s
    Orichalcum chain price 16.38s
    10* Orichalcum ingot price 48.3s
    5* Glob of ecto price 142.7s
    5* Beryl orb price 12.1s
    ------------------------------------------------
    Crafting cost 229.8s
    Profit 19.97s
    293*0.85-229.8= 19.75s
    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    (222.5+20)*1.15=278.875
    You see the *1.15? that 0.15 is the cost of taxes.
    Last edited by Meledelion; 2013-01-08 at 04:18 AM.

  10. #30
    The Lightbringer Rukh's Avatar
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    Ok, you did. But it still illustrates my other point: 10% tax whether it sells or not. Your amulet is currently at 280. You going to leave your amulet up and home sometime it goes back up? Or are you going to relist in which case you are losing money on your crafting? Even if you were just listing it a first time, that recipe took a nosedive. As I said, the tax actually punishes participation in the market. Sometimes these particular recipes will be profitable but often they won't because the market operates at a very high volume so people find those inefficiencies very quickly.

    Also, opportunity costs are still important, even if you choose to ignore them.

    quick example, if I had all my gold tied up in items I was hoping to sell back for profit, when all the precursors were handed out, I couldn't have bought any to resell. I would have missed a pretty large profit right there.

    Though then I suck them all in to christmas weapon skins. I didn't realize those would also be handed out. -.- Anyone one one? I have about a million! XD
    Last edited by Rukh; 2013-01-08 at 05:12 AM.
    Still bitter.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    We are NOT talking about making gear For YOURSELF we are making gear TO SELL

    And ofcourse I'm talking about high end stuff, as I've said earlier why would someone farm mats of a lesser value to begin with?
    Hey, all I know is the original question was:

    Quote Originally Posted by adam86shadow View Post
    In your opinion what's better? To use every mat for crafting or to sell em all for money money money?
    I took that to mean every crafting material starting from level 1. Sorry if I misunderstood. Usually when people ask this question it's to determine whether or not they should level crafting at all or just the sell mats they obtain as they level, which is what I usually do in games as most of the time crafting isn't worth it.

    I must have missed at what point the topic turned solely into T6 materials, as I said, my input is based on experiences leveling up to 400 which hopefully someone still finds useful.

  12. #32
    Specifically the question (as I understood it) was about what's best to do while you level. Say you're doing dailies, you do your 20 gathers, are you better off keeping the mats and doing crafting as you level, or wait until 80, or even not bothering with crafting at all and selling mats.

    But this is a useful discussion, it's good to know that someone is making a profit above a certain skill point. The main issue that I have is that in order to make serious money, if it works as described above, you need to craft in bulk - a variety of items which are selling for a small markup each, with a lot of listings to maintain and check the profitability of. That for me is the point where play segues into work

    I always quite liked the WoW daily model, where daily token costs kept down the proliferation of recipes and transmutes or other cool down skills kept down the total number of items, making it possible to list single high-end items with minimal competition allowing you to make a good profit. Early on in server life after LK came out epic JC rings would sell for double the cost of mats, including a 400g Dragon's Eye. If those kind of opportunities exist in the market it feels like play to me, and I'll happily put in the effort to max out crafting skills.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Rukh View Post
    Ok, you did. But it still illustrates my other point: 10% tax whether it sells or not. Your amulet is currently at 280. You going to leave your amulet up and home sometime it goes back up? Or are you going to relist in which case you are losing money on your crafting? Even if you were just listing it a first time, that recipe took a nosedive. As I said, the tax actually punishes participation in the market. Sometimes these particular recipes will be profitable but often they won't because the market operates at a very high volume so people find those inefficiencies very quickly.

    Also, opportunity costs are still important, even if you choose to ignore them.

    quick example, if I had all my gold tied up in items I was hoping to sell back for profit, when all the precursors were handed out, I couldn't have bought any to resell. I would have missed a pretty large profit right there.

    Though then I suck them all in to christmas weapon skins. I didn't realize those would also be handed out. -.- Anyone one one? I have about a million! XD
    I don't know why I bother but heck since I've invested this much time into it I might as well continue.
    The listing fee (sunk cost, think of it as transportation cost) is 5% and not 10% as you say. The 10% is the VAT tax.
    http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Trading_Post
    Yes, I am why wouldn't I leave it up? There's two reasons why I will leave them up
    1. I already paid all my sunk costs, taking the item off and re-listing it would cost me another 5%
    2. Prices (for most items) have been quite stable since sept 14th

    And again NO opportunity costs aren't important apart from the actual question asked in the OP, craft or sell raw.
    The reason for this is simple. You're not "buying" your mats, you're farming them. We're not talking about having X amount of money and what to do with it, we're talking about having X amount of mats and what to do with those.
    There are only 2things you can do with materials a) use them for crafting b) sell them. The only reason why I gave examples with you buying the mats is to prove how profitable it really is.

    Also, I apologise to Lane. We indeed can't verify what the goal is of adam86shadow. I responded a lot more harsh than I should have. I'm simply a bit annoyed that people don't seem to read my posts, they just comment, so I have to keep saying the same thing over and over again so their ideas (which are wrong) don't spread and discourage newcomers.

    To expand a bit, if I misunderstood the question (and you understood it correctly) we can establish that levelling crafting is indeed worth it due to the financial factor alone after you max it out. You don't have to max a profession gold, silver and platinum jewels all make profits as well. Some of those even get returns higher than 25% (this is due to over saturation of the sell market due to ppl selling items since they CBA to craft so the costs are a lot lower).
    Last edited by Meledelion; 2013-01-08 at 01:46 PM.

  14. #34
    The Lightbringer Rukh's Avatar
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    1. ok so you're sinking all your money in to leaving it up for your small profit, fine. Even though your item isn't profitable right now, you can wait days or even weeks until it is. That money can't be used for other things at the time. That's not really a great profit but if that's your point, fine.

    2. LOL???

    So you're right, you can make scrapings off crafting if you put a ton of time and energy in to it, congratulations, but I think my point still stands that no, it's not worth it. Use your time doing other things and sell your mats.

    But honestly unless you're going for a legendary, don't worry about gold. You need a bit to get some cool skins, but it's not very important in the game. Just doing whatever you find fun will give you more than enough to get by.

    If you LIKE crafting, then awesome! Do it. play the market for coppers, great. If you don't, go do other things. If you're purely looking to get rich, grind events and gather, do fractals, watch the AH for lazy people who put things up at cheap prices. All those things are going to make much better money and you can do them all at once.
    Last edited by Rukh; 2013-01-08 at 02:08 PM.
    Still bitter.

  15. #35
    1. Again I'm not sinking any money in tp apart from the 5% tax that's a whopping 7.5g. And AGAIN it doesn't matter for this point, if you try to sell mats or try to sell crafted items you have the same risk... WE ARE NOT BUYING THE MATS
    2. LOL what? Lol prices aren't averaging out at 2.8g?

    Crafting 100different rings would at max take you 200s*62=12400s That is if you literally craft one item at a time in reality it takes you: 42s

    "But honestly unless you're going for legendary, don't worry about gold." Op asks what is the best way for money money money...

  16. #36
    Rukh, your entire argument is based on the idea that goods sell slowly on the Market. If you started selling jewelry you would see this is not the case, and there is an opportunity for someone to make quite a large amount of profit. This is not the case for every profession, so your current professions need to be factored into the OP's question. I am cooking and Huntsman, while I have yet to see where money can be made from Huntsman I have started making money from cooking quite easily.

  17. #37
    Destroyer weapons are awesome to make profit with huntsman.

  18. #38
    not to mention, even you make a few coppers profit on a single item sale, if you sell hundreds (if not thousands) of it, it just adds up pretty quickly to a few golds.

    anyways, making gold using the TP takes time if you intend to "farm" the amount of gold necessary to get, say, a legendary weapon (which costs range from about 600g to 1500g+ on average i think depending on the legendary).

    wether you're selling raw mats or crafted goods on TP, you always expose yourself to undercuts made by others no matter what.

  19. #39
    How do you not end up buying mats? I'd say probably 90% of whatever orichalcum and ancient wood I have (which is very little overall) were 'luck' from salvaging, maybe 10% is from actual nodes which I rarely see. Granted, I don't spend that much time in the hellhole known as Orr, but while doing map completion for it + Frostgorge Sound I think I saw less than half a dozen nodes for each.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by sacrypheyes View Post
    Wether you're selling raw mats or crafted goods on TP, you always expose yourself to undercuts made by others no matter what.
    Ty for understanding, I was on the verge of having a computer crash against the wall.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lane View Post
    How do you not end up buying mats? I'd say probably 90% of whatever orichalcum and ancient wood I have (which is very little overall) were 'luck' from salvaging, maybe 10% is from actual nodes which I rarely see. Granted, I don't spend that much time in the hellhole known as Orr, but while doing map completion for it + Frostgorge Sound I think I saw less than half a dozen nodes for each.
    I personally do buy mats since I cba to farm. However for the question in the OP you don't.
    The starting point is "I have X amount of Y mats"

    If you want to know high end locations check out www.orrmaps.com

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