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  1. #21
    Field Marshal Delighted's Avatar
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    Well combat is still really strong in pvp.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaul2013 View Post
    So by removing Blade Flurry completely players will now be more likely to swap to Combat for what reason? It certainly won't be PVP, where both other specs already outperform Combat. Now with Mutilate having better single target, and multi-target DPS, what does Ghost Crawler expect players to "swap to combat" for? Nothing?
    Logic fail. The change is not intended to make Combat more attractive (duh). The point is that on any fight where cleave is helpful, Combat is almost mandatory, that's what they're trying to change. They want you to play the spec you want not the one the fight demands. If anything it's so Muti rogues don't feel obliged to have a Combat OS for cleave when they don't want to.

    Competitiveness of Combat is a separate issue, don't confuse the two.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-08 at 12:06 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Incineration View Post
    I'm not quite following him either.

    Combat is going from, "The spec I turn to if there's a cleave involved..."
    To, "The spec I never turn to."

    How that's going to increase the number of Combat rogues, I simply do not know. The people who liked Combat were already playing it! This makes absolutely sure that the people who do not like it, won't have to play it.
    Yeah, he's fine with that. The game isn't SUPPOSED to force you to play a sub-par spec because of a single OP ability.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-08 at 12:15 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by rogueMatthias View Post
    The problem is with Blade flurry is it CAN'T be balanced with Assasination. It should have been nerfed quite a bit (it really was far too high) BUT then made baseline.
    Do Rogues really need more things made baseline? There's little enough to distinguish the specs as it is.
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  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Do Rogues really need more things made baseline? There's little enough to distinguish the specs as it is.
    That's more a problem with Rogues in general tbh, that the specs are all so similar that there's only a few skills that make any identifiable over the others.

    The extra dmg from Blade Flurry IS too high, but Scaling Combat so that it is balanced with Muti, with or without its cleave can't possible work unless the cleave is near mutilations current "cleaving" dmg.

    Maybe the other specs really should have been given their own equivalents that are more suitable to the specs.

  4. #24
    High Overlord Kissme's Avatar
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    The development team hasn't had a good handle on rogues for a long time. They tweak our AP coefficients to make our specs comparable on single targets in controlled environments and then fail to solve our real problems.

    Examples?

    1) Going into Cataclysm - rogues have too many timers and are too reliant on them. Solution: Gave us more timers.
    2) Rogues have mobility issues in PvP unless they're sub. Solution - take away subs mobility and allow all specs to choose between half of subs old mobility options while nerfing our snare at the same time (so we can't close distance or keep targets close).
    3) Rogues have poor AoE outside of combat's cleave. Solution - nerf combat's cleave.

    Let's face it, rogues have been ignored by the development team for a long time. They gave us a legendary to bump our representation in Cata but then failed to address any of the classes problems in the next expansion. They have no sense of flavor for the class and it's various specs (they blandly blend together) and fail to balance us due to some internal feeling that we're the perfectly designed and balanced class. They bandaid our true issues in terms of damage generation and passive vs active damage scaling by applying minor AP coefficient changes on a regular basis rather than addressing core issues (such as passive damage representing an increasingly large amount of our damage, or the fact that our nimble leather wearers have less mobility than most plate classes). Rogues are the redheaded step children of WoW since Wrath and we won't get the needed adjustments and balancing from the current team. They ignored the community and top theory crafters for 3 expansions now - why do people still expect them to do more than make sure the numbers in PvE fights look balanced?

    Long story short: This development team will balance your PvE output numbers and fail in every other way when it comes to rogues. Rogues should be used to it by now.

  5. #25
    As an Assassination rogue, I welcome the change. No more respeccing/reforging to combat for cleave fights.

    Not being forced to play a spec with a clumsy awkward rotation is a win in my book. Until.... you know... combat scales off the graph in the last couple of tiers.

  6. #26
    Pit Lord Bryntrollian's Avatar
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    Cool screw combat
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  7. #27
    Brewmaster Buxton McGraff's Avatar
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    I'll play combat because I like combat. Also I believe it's getting an attack power buff (25% to 30%?) so that'll be nice.

  8. #28
    It's kind of a stupid move, really.

    Now we're not best single target, best AOE, or anywhere near best Cleave. At least previously we were champs at cleaving.

    So we can now be equally mediocre at everything!

    The class as a whole has it's utility dumped on because people whined about feeling obligated to respec to take advantage of Combat on a select few fights.

    In the next tier, if there's an AOE encounter, you know full well we'll all play Mut for it. So is the answer to nerf Mut AOE by 75% because it will better work with specific encounter mechanics? We'll have to respec to it, so we should have it brought down to Sub/Combat AOE levels, right? No, that would be outright silly. Much like the Blade Flurry nerf.

    Cleave fights aren't going anywhere, guys. Now we'll just suck at them, or will get benched for people who can perform well at them. Enjoy the bottom of the meters.
    Last edited by Chult; 2013-01-08 at 04:00 AM.

  9. #29
    I'd say the real problem is that Rogues NEED a cleave.

    Practically everyone else has a cleave.

    Having only one spec that has a cleave means if people need a cleave they need that spec.

    Nerfing Combat still makes other specs suck badly compared to other classes if a cleave can be used.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Delighted View Post
    Well combat is still really strong in pvp.
    Most rogues are arms this patch.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-08 at 05:16 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kissme View Post
    1) Going into Cataclysm - rogues have too many timers and are too reliant on them. Solution: Gave us more timers.
    2) Rogues have mobility issues in PvP unless they're sub. Solution - take away subs mobility and allow all specs to choose between half of subs old mobility options while nerfing our snare at the same time (so we can't close distance or keep targets close).
    3) Rogues have poor AoE outside of combat's cleave. Solution - nerf combat's cleave.
    Also quoting this for truth!

  11. #31
    Free Food!?!?! Tziva's Avatar
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    Well, I know I only play Combat for the fights that it is basically mandatory for the Cleave. I don't like that I have to swap to a spec I dislike but I don't think the solution is removing or massively nerfing Blade Flurry.

    Personally, I'd rather all specs had Blade Flurry available to them and that Combat just ended up "best" at cleave fights. The slight advantage is still relevant to hardcore min/maxers (who swap around every fight anyway) and maintains a niche for Combat but is small enough that the average raider doesn't really feel required to change specs if they don't want to. But that's just me.
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  12. #32
    Combat is being buffed to do top single target damage as well, and it should* scale slightly quicker compared to Assassination. This is reason enough to stay Combat on most fights apart from fights where heavy sustained AoE is required. I'm quite convinced Subtlety will take the throne of highest controlled burst damage in a short period of time somewhere mid-end of tier 15.

    Ghostcrawler isn't out to get you, and this is not one giant conspiracy. I still think a better or more elegant solution would be to give Subtlety and Assassination a cleave-like ability and have Blade Flurry nerfed to roughly what it's been nerfed now without the energy regen reduction. But hey I think this will work out in the end.

    If this nerf/change happened sooner I would still be raiding on my Rogue. But Murphy's law disagrees with me.


    *It's not going to be by much, but at the end of the day weapon damage makes a bigger impact for Combat compared to Assassination.

  13. #33
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    Blade Flurry did not entice rogues to play combat on cleave fights, it FORCED them to. I hate combat, most uninteresting mechanics ever. I dreaded Ultrax because it was really the only spec to use. Subt was just useless, no Sdance, no backstab, no FW, and mut lost its execute mechanic. Combat required no skill, just RvS and spam SS with SnD up. Arcane mages were more fun just spamming arcane blast, and I think its because it looked cool. Combat just looked like a guy flailing around with swords.

    I agree with the nerf to an extent... 75% straight up nerf seems a tad harsh. I preferred it on a CD, was more interesting than having an "I win cleave fights" toggle.
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  14. #34
    The change to Blade Flurry (hope for it to be buffed to 50% with no energy cost by 5.2 Live) is to make sure that this log of Combat from 6 weeks ago and this log of Mut from last night fall in line with one another. Blade Flurry will still be powerful because it is still going to be less maintenance than Mut cleaving and Sub cleaving (which honestly doesn't really exist), but right now it is too powerful on cleave-focused fights.

    At the same time, I feel like they wouldn't have touched Blade Flurry if it hadn't been for that Garalon-BF bug from a few months ago, but that's just me.
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  15. #35
    Really think they will remake us good in next expansion , so far same probs remain in beta we still lack the basic things .......

  16. #36
    Field Marshal Gorged's Avatar
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    If you look at the new datamined changes blade flurry now hits up to 4 targets for 25% damage each so it is only really a dps loss when fighting 2 or 3 targets any other point you will be doing the same damage as before.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Logic fail. The change is not intended to make Combat more attractive (duh). The point is that on any fight where cleave is helpful, Combat is almost mandatory, that's what they're trying to change. They want you to play the spec you want not the one the fight demands. If anything it's so Muti rogues don't feel obliged to have a Combat OS for cleave when they don't want to.

    Competitiveness of Combat is a separate issue, don't confuse the two.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-08 at 12:06 AM ----------



    Yeah, he's fine with that. The game isn't SUPPOSED to force you to play a sub-par spec because of a single OP ability.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-08 at 12:15 AM ----------



    Do Rogues really need more things made baseline? There's little enough to distinguish the specs as it is.
    So you state that they are removing the usefulness of blade flurry because it is the goto spec for cleave but you also state the fact that theres little to no difference between the specs already. Removing combats cleave brings it closer to a clone of the other two specs not further!

    Ive been a combat rogue since Vanilla when Molten Core was still dropping tier 2 on all the bosses. I love my combat spec. The only reason my raid leader lets me stay combat all the time is because of the damage im able to pump out on cleave fights combined with out abysmal dagger drops (0 daggers from any of the raids and counting). With the cleave as good as gone i now have to convince my raid leader to keep me in the raid team as combat. That or pray some daggers drop soon.

    A nerf was needed noones disputeing this. but 75% is way way over the top. If they are that unhappy with it why not just put it back to a cooldown like it was back in the day.
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  18. #38
    i would rather they design something new for combat and .... make blade flurry a Talent that duplicates white hits on a nearby mob.
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelodalix View Post
    What the fuck did you just say.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Viglante View Post
    i would rather they design something new for combat and .... make blade flurry a Talent that duplicates white hits on a nearby mob.
    ...which would render it useless to every spec but Combat? What would be the point of such a useless talent?

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Viglante View Post
    i would rather they design something new for combat and .... make blade flurry a Talent that duplicates white hits on a nearby mob.
    Yes more passive dmg, finally i will be able to engage wind lord and go have my dinner in the meanwhile should i come home late from work

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