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  1. #1

    Legendaries in Role Play

    Allright, being an owner of Sulfuras, and having made it with other Rp'ers as a weapon which is in similar design, but to hold the Light instead of the fire for its glow, calling it Nolduras or something different, and claiming it is just in similar design, would that spark you off or would you be able to accept it for the fact that the person would be using it for its model only, to represent its glow effect?

    Legendaries I have seen being used by many players, and even though a player may use it IC for its models, would you still have a go? Or Ask?

    What are the rules concerning Legendaries. Are they Taboo? What would be a better weapon choice in terms of glowy hammers for Sulfuras, or dark glaives, even Shadowmourne for the would be Death knight that loves that axe?

    I am curious of peoples response, since on our Server it is varied

  2. #2
    I use Quel'Delar (not a Legendary but a named specific weapon) for one of my toons, but I do not roleplay it as THE Quel'Delar. When someone asks I joke that the smith who made it attempted to replicate the design.

    The fact is that smiths would really try to replicate the designs not only of famous weapons, but ones that were effective. What you wield doesn't have to be Sulfuras to look like it. Assuming you are a warrior of some accomplishment, it's perfectly legit to wield a weapon that may not be legendary, but is an excelelnt replication. Perhaps a Dwarf smith made several attempted copies that while not as fine as the original, were still great works.

    Hope that helps.

  3. #3
    I am of the opinion that they shouldn't ever be used. There's plenty of great models out there that aren't legendary. The likelihood of a smith being able to replicate a unique weapon such as Sulfuras or Shadowmourne is so unlikely that I wouldn't even consider it. Only a master blacksmith would be able to do that, and even then they'd need access to some very detailed drawings and information on the actual composition of the weapon in order to make an actually usable weapon. Ultimately, you have it because it looks cool, not because it adds to your character. What would a replica add to your character that another weapon with a more generic model wouldn't? Fanboyism, in a crude sense? Your character probably doesn't even know what Sulfuras looks like. At most he'd have heard a rumor of a mortal carrying a weapon that was once used by the Elemental Lord of Fire.
    Last edited by The Mister Madgod; 2013-01-07 at 09:08 PM.

  4. #4
    I am using a mace called 'Lights Justice', but I was very curious since I got Sulfuras today, thanks for the insight, I'll stay with Lights Justice

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    I am of the opinion that they shouldn't ever be used. There's plenty of great models out there that aren't legendary. The likelihood of a smith being able to replicate a unique weapon such as Sulfuras or Shadowmourne is so unlikely that I wouldn't even consider it. Only a master blacksmith would be able to do that, and even then they'd need access to some very detailed drawings and information on the actual composition of the weapon in order to make an actually usable weapon. Ultimately, you have it because it looks cool, not because it adds to your character. What would a replica add to your character that another weapon with a more generic model wouldn't? Fanboyism? Your character probably doesn't even know what Sulfuras looks like. At most he'd have heard a rumor of a mortal carrying a weapon that was once used by the Elemental Lord of Fire.
    While I agree there are several excellent models that aren't legendary (almost all my characters use models that are far more modest in style than the 1H QDs on my DK), I disagree of your assessment that smiths would have a hard time replicating the appearance of other weapons. Legendary weapons are not really special because of their appearance, that's Blizzard making a design decision. I'm fairly sure I can go grab a real life blacksmith to make a QD in that is perfectly functional. It also isn't that absurd that smiths may hunt down accurate descriptions of legendary weapons specifically to boost sales. Someone on Azeroth has claimed these weapons. Not long after word spreads that they have them, groups like the Explorer's League are going to want to get a good look at them, and take detailed drawings, which smiths surely offer up some cash to look at.

    Val'anyr would be an exception to this, as the nature of the object itself (you know floaty parts and whatnot) that it is really unlikely to be copied. Everything else I can think of is really just a basic weapon with flourishes.

    As another note. I really don't think legendaries are that great looking. They are too detached from a realistic weapon. I often look at my merely epic QD and wish I could find a scimitar looking weapon that I liked better (fortunately my pally is my main RP toon). Unfortunately Blizzard loves to design weird things that look like playdough made into weapons by kids so good models are few and far between.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Primaliron View Post
    While I agree there are several excellent models that aren't legendary (almost all my characters use models that are far more modest in style than the 1H QDs on my DK), I disagree of your assessment that smiths would have a hard time replicating the appearance of other weapons. Legendary weapons are not really special because of their appearance, that's Blizzard making a design decision. I'm fairly sure I can go grab a real life blacksmith to make a QD in that is perfectly functional. It also isn't that absurd that smiths may hunt down accurate descriptions of legendary weapons specifically to boost sales. Someone on Azeroth has claimed these weapons. Not long after word spreads that they have them, groups like the Explorer's League are going to want to get a good look at them, and take detailed drawings, which smiths surely offer up some cash to look at.
    Okay, so how common are these drawings? Are they to scale? Do they specify when you need a certain blend of metal (decorative or otherwise)? What is the skill required to make something so ornate? What about color (kinda goes back to the metal blend)? There's so many specific things that one would need to make a usable replica. Your point of legendaries being unique in appearance is besides the point. They could have been bland, but they aren't.

    Regardless, roleplaying's about your character's story and personality and portraying such in a world filled with other people doing the same thing, not about how awesome your armor is. Putting a legendary on seems more like an appeal to the latter, not the former, and I don't agree with that idea. Your character and his/her history should influence your attire. Your attire shouldn't require you to go into your history and add stuff.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by ThreeLions View Post
    I am using a mace called 'Lights Justice', but I was very curious since I got Sulfuras today, thanks for the insight, I'll stay with Lights Justice
    Are you specifically looking for something golden colored and a mace?

    I'm sort of assuming you are a paladin, if so I would make a couple other recommendations for you to consider.

    Torch of Holy Fire: KT in Naxx-25
    Hammer of the Astral Plane: KT in Naxx-10

    For less golden but slivery 2H there's Demise (Heigan Naxx-10) and the venerable Titansteel Destroyer (crafted)

    For less golden, silvery 1H I always recommend either the Cudgel of Consecration (K'T in MgT-H) or it's slightly more purple counterpart the Northshire Battlemace from Skarloc in Hillsbrad normal.

    Obviously this is all my opinion but I'm bored in my hotel room while doing tedious work and the internet is too slow to game :P

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-07 at 06:34 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    Okay, so how common are these drawings? Are they to scale? Do they specify when you need a certain blend of metal (decorative or otherwise)? What is the skill required to make something so ornate? What about color (kinda goes back to the metal blend)? There's so many specific things that one would need to make a usable replica. Your point of legendaries being unique in appearance is besides the point. They could have been bland, but they aren't.

    Regardless, roleplaying's about your character's story and personality and portraying such in a world filled with other people doing the same thing, not about how awesome your armor is. Putting a legendary on seems more like an appeal to the latter, not the former, and I don't agree with that idea. Your character and his/her history should influence your attire. Your attire shouldn't require you to go into your history and add stuff.
    I think you are taking things a little far here. Which I can understand. What I am saying is that regardless of the actual accuracy of available materials, blacksmiths will make these weapons because there are cultural factors at work. If you are a young soldier looking to buy a weapon are you going to buy the plain looking sword, or the one modeled on a famous figure's sword? This is a weapon upon which you will trust your life. However little you may think it matters, there's a slight part of many soldiers who will feel more comfortable taking that "legendary" into battle even knowing it is not the real deal. So what if the Sulfuras knock off has the wrong number of spikes and the glow is more red or yellow than it is supposed to be? These things will sell, and they will be aplenty in a world looking for every little comfort. And the closest item you can use in the game to represent a knock-off of a legendary, is usually a legendary. This doesn't require altering your character's backstory necessarily, and it doesn't mean the knock-off is really special.

    Smiths in the real world make weapons based on descriptions, tomb coverings, paintings, and the like all the time. In a world full of smiths who make weapons of war for a living, some of whom have more than one mortal lifetime to perfect their craft, I find it entirely plausible that they can replicate an approximation. It may never be anywhere near as good as the real thing, btu that doesn't matter, if it can be used in battle (okay so some less scrupulous smiths may not care about that) then they can sell it. Maybe they never figure out how to carve the runes on Shadowmourne, so they use whatever script they know. Maybe the spikes don't turn out right, so they alter them to make them functional in a way they know.

    RPing all of this doesn't have to be some onerous thing either. I use my QD blades as a bit of comic relief. My DK commissioned them after his last pair were lost. The swordsmith who made them was a high elf KotEB and thought it would honor my DK to make them look like the recently reclaimed Quel'Delar. When my DK showed up to get them he was dismayed as they look odd, but they work well, and so he reluctantly uses them. He often comments "Even in death some elves cannot find elegance in simplicity." I added this to my character's story because I thought it would be a fun in-game representation at my dislike of the curved slicing style swords in the game and it fits his general liking for simplicity.

    Obviously none of this is going to work for a character who is supposed to be a simple guard who has to abide by regulations in his gear. But it can be a source of comic humor in the way I have used it, or in that some character may gullibly buy a knock-off that isn't even usable, or one that isn't as legendary as promised. One can even develop a love-hate relationship with it. The character may have bought it when young and foolish, but it turned out to be a good weapon, and now they will not replace it.

    Don't ever be afraid to look at the behaviour of players and figure out how their own annoying habits may have a mirror image in Azeroth.

  8. #8
    Those are all good maces, but my guild tends to be the more humble type.. which is why using Sulfuras would be a bit too riske in the first place.
    I may have an event which changes the mace into a sword like Stormrune Edge, only because I can actually use RP pieces and my characters history to shape it to that desired effect.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by ThreeLions View Post
    Those are all good maces, but my guild tends to be the more humble type.. which is why using Sulfuras would be a bit too riske in the first place.
    I may have an event which changes the mace into a sword like Stormrune Edge, only because I can actually use RP pieces and my characters history to shape it to that desired effect.

    Style is always a point of contention in RP. Every RPer has to determine what works for them. It's good that you are trying to adjust what you're using to your RP group. I may have a less conventional view as mentioned above, but I adjust my RP to fit with those I hang out with. A lot of that is going to depend on how common people consider enchantments and otherwise magically infused objects that show it. While I have provided what I consider to be a reasonable argument for legendary items being more common as knock-offs.... I hate looking at most of them and hope people use them sparingly despite my theoretical acceptance of them.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Primaliron View Post
    As another note. I really don't think legendaries are that great looking. They are too detached from a realistic weapon. I often look at my merely epic QD and wish I could find a scimitar looking weapon that I liked better (fortunately my pally is my main RP toon). Unfortunately Blizzard loves to design weird things that look like playdough made into weapons by kids so good models are few and far between.
    I disagree only with Atiesh, the model is often criticized for being *too* simple in design. That being said, I do agree overall that smiths could replicate many if not all of the weapons found and using that back story is very plausible and believable.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Primaliron View Post
    Style is always a point of contention in RP. Every RPer has to determine what works for them. It's good that you are trying to adjust what you're using to your RP group. I may have a less conventional view as mentioned above, but I adjust my RP to fit with those I hang out with. A lot of that is going to depend on how common people consider enchantments and otherwise magically infused objects that show it. While I have provided what I consider to be a reasonable argument for legendary items being more common as knock-offs.... I hate looking at most of them and hope people use them sparingly despite my theoretical acceptance of them.
    Yes, I think Stormrune will fit my character, be acceptable for his role as a senior paladin, and the fact he himself is humble. He may have a glowish sword, but he is no Ashbringer.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Primaliron View Post
    I think you are taking things a little far here. Which I can understand. What I am saying is that regardless of the actual accuracy of available materials, blacksmiths will make these weapons because there are cultural factors at work. If you are a young soldier looking to buy a weapon are you going to buy the plain looking sword, or the one modeled on a famous figure's sword? This is a weapon upon which you will trust your life. However little you may think it matters, there's a slight part of many soldiers who will feel more comfortable taking that "legendary" into battle even knowing it is not the real deal. So what if the Sulfuras knock off has the wrong number of spikes and the glow is more red or yellow than it is supposed to be? These things will sell, and they will be aplenty in a world looking for every little comfort. And the closest item you can use in the game to represent a knock-off of a legendary, is usually a legendary. This doesn't require altering your character's backstory necessarily, and it doesn't mean the knock-off is really special.
    Of course they would but really... think about it. They wouldn't make a lot. There's high demand for the Frostmourne replica in real life, which is actually authentic looking (which mirrors what they would be like in WoW... it's not just as simple as getting several steel ingots and welding them together... It takes time, skill, and precise information that would not be readily available), but there was very few in circulation. They'd also cost a pretty penny, something that an adventurer typically does not have. What is the likelihood of your character having this item? It's very low. It's the same principle of not allowing people to say they've killed a named NPC within the lore. Because there's the possibility of everyone getting it in-game, we as a community have taken a blanket stance on the subject (I.E. we can't say we killed that NPC).

    And you have to explain how you got a Sulfuras look-alike, otherwise people assume that you actually have Sulfuras, which makes you look even worse, so yes, you do need to change your backstory, albeit not to a great degree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Primaliron View Post
    Smiths in the real world make weapons based on descriptions, tomb coverings, paintings, and the like all the time. In a world full of smiths who make weapons of war for a living, some of whom have more than one mortal lifetime to perfect their craft, I find it entirely plausible that they can replicate an approximation. It may never be anywhere near as good as the real thing, btu that doesn't matter, if it can be used in battle (okay so some less scrupulous smiths may not care about that) then they can sell it. Maybe they never figure out how to carve the runes on Shadowmourne, so they use whatever script they know. Maybe the spikes don't turn out right, so they alter them to make them functional in a way they know.
    The problem is that warcraft legendaries are much more complex than the arms of the past. Not every blacksmith's going to have the skills necessary to make something similar enough to the true in-game model and because you can't really show this in-game, it's stretching what would be plausible, at least in my opinion, but I'm much more of a lore and roleplaying purist than you, obviously.

    Quote Originally Posted by Primaliron View Post
    RPing all of this doesn't have to be some onerous thing either. I use my QD blades as a bit of comic relief. My DK commissioned them after his last pair were lost. The swordsmith who made them was a high elf KotEB and thought it would honor my DK to make them look like the recently reclaimed Quel'Delar. When my DK showed up to get them he was dismayed as they look odd, but they work well, and so he reluctantly uses them. He often comments "Even in death some elves cannot find elegance in simplicity." I added this to my character's story because I thought it would be a fun in-game representation at my dislike of the curved slicing style swords in the game and it fits his general liking for simplicity.

    Obviously none of this is going to work for a character who is supposed to be a simple guard who has to abide by regulations in his gear. But it can be a source of comic humor in the way I have used it, or in that some character may gullibly buy a knock-off that isn't even usable, or one that isn't as legendary as promised. One can even develop a love-hate relationship with it. The character may have bought it when young and foolish, but it turned out to be a good weapon, and now they will not replace it.
    But that's the thing, in the examples you provided, it's more of a gimmick than an integral aspect of a character, and while that's okay in of itself, It just seems uncomfortable to me that it just so happens to be a replica of a renowned weapon. It worries me because that's a big sign of "I thought it'd be cool" instead of "I thought it would add depth to my character", which is what you want to strive for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Primaliron View Post
    Don't ever be afraid to look at the behaviour of players and figure out how their own annoying habits may have a mirror image in Azeroth.
    I assure you, there's nothing you can lecture me on in this regard. I'm quite competent, thank you!

  13. #13
    Scarab Lord ViridianWRA's Avatar
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    The Sulfuras wieldable by players is a special case-- it is an empowered replica of Ragnaros' hammer, not the weapon itself.

    The technique to make the weapon is known by the Thorium Brotherhood. The hammer itself is only a replica-- what makes it legendary is the Eye of Sulfuron fused with the hammer.

    Substitute that spark with something else (IE, the Light) and it is actually the only legendary that does seem acceptable in RP.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Validity View Post
    The Sulfuras wieldable by players is a special case-- it is an empowered replica of Ragnaros' hammer, not the weapon itself.

    The technique to make the weapon is known by the Thorium Brotherhood. The hammer itself is only a replica-- what makes it legendary is the Eye of Sulfuron fused with the hammer.

    Substitute that spark with something else (IE, the Light) and it is actually the only legendary that does seem acceptable in RP.
    Or even better just use the pre-eye hammer... can't in this specific case obviously, but I'd find it much more plausible than just using the Light or something else in the creation of "Sulfuras"... It just seems like an excuse, to me.
    Last edited by The Mister Madgod; 2013-01-08 at 01:23 AM.

  15. #15
    Role-player Nonfictionless's Avatar
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    I just want to take a second to inform you of a very crucial detail you are overlooking Primaliron. Azeroth is not an advanced civilization in our terms. The mail system is not as it is in game. Information is not readily available to all. Hence why schools of learning are localized to major cities. There isn't a blacksmithing guild. Its a craft typically passed down through families. The point is there just isn't an ease of access we experience in our day to day life. You have to take this into consideration. It's all about getting into the mindset of an actual person living in this time and place.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Nonfictionless View Post
    I just want to take a second to inform you of a very crucial detail you are overlooking Primaliron. Azeroth is not an advanced civilization in our terms. The mail system is not as it is in game. Information is not readily available to all. Hence why schools of learning are localized to major cities. There isn't a blacksmithing guild. Its a craft typically passed down through families. The point is there just isn't an ease of access we experience in our day to day life. You have to take this into consideration. It's all about getting into the mindset of an actual person living in this time and place.
    How do you know that Blacksmithing is a craft handed down by families in every culture in Azeroth? I haven't seen anything in this regard at all and I'm pretty sure if something references this it is not uniform across all cultures.

    You say Azeroth is not Advanced, and yet they posses many advanced technologies. Indeed they are not liek us, but they are advanced in their own way. Holographic projectors, underground trams, flying machines. I doubt most modern people in our can construct a working sailing vessel on par with either the Alliance or Horde.

    People haven't gotten smarter over the last few thousand years, we stand upon the shoulders of giants... and still suffer from lingering foolishness from the idiots they too had to put up with. Even in the modern age people believe lots of "common sense" fallacies that fly in the face of basic logic

    Azeroth is in the middle of an interesting change as well. People are moving much greater distances and becoming more worldy due to the circumstances surrounding their lives. They may not have the internet, but they aren't in the Dark Ages. Don't let the scenery fool you, this is a world with flight, steam power, and advanced sailing. They even have portals though it is likely reserved for serious use. The Gnomes have had subs since WC2 I believe.

    As for a blacksmith guild or any other sense of blacksmith community.... maybe it exists and maybe it doesn't we have no denial of it and it is not implausible. You don't see bathrooms in the game (except a lone outhouse in Searing Gorge).

    This isn't a culture in the Middle Ages, it's a culture with some middle age technology and some technollogies well in advance of it.
    Last edited by Primaliron; 2013-01-08 at 02:10 AM.

  17. #17
    Role-player Nonfictionless's Avatar
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    First off, many of the flying technologies that you site are not fool-proof. They are mostly not trusted in lore and used by the people who craft them. The Holographic projector and any Draenei "tech" is not tech and is Light-based magic supported by a Naaru. You look to the King, the heads and the very tip top of the social ladder in WoW and proclaim it for normal adventures, the common rabble.

    My point is that un-like our age, things of this nature are not available to all.

  18. #18
    I'd like to add to that point in saying that really the only well-traveled people are us adventurers.

    As well, in order for a sketch to be usable to craft anything resembling an actual legendary weapon, as they're fairly complex, you'd need an artist. That artist would have to have already drawn the weapon (from multiple angles, so it's actually a technical drawing that can be used properly), or would need to track down the single adventurer in the entire world who has that particular weapon. That artist would have to have been commissioned by the blacksmith to do such. The likelyhood of him sharing those "schematics" would be very low, and the chances that there were multiple copies would also be pretty low, since this blacksmith wants to make money and get rich off of these replicas. If he'd share it because he's in a guild, well that's possible, but since there's been no mention of such a thing, then that's another assumption you have to make that gets piled on. As well, the likelihood of MULTIPLE artists doing the same thing is VERY low. Okay so this guy beats the odds and actually gets a workable drawing. Adventurers don't really have much cash, so that cuts out a good portion of the people who would want one of these things.

    The practicality of it is another factor. Why should you get a new, very expensive shiny sword, when your current one (or a regular sword, I.E, a cheaper sword) works just fine? You can spend that saved gold on stuff that matters, like bread, wine, and a bed to sleep on while you're in town. As well, we're completely ignoring the fact that blacksmiths are some of the most busy people in the world. They're constantly getting new orders, both from civilians and from the military, and they constantly need to work. When does this guy have the time to reconstruct something as ornate as Shadowmourne? He won't have much time, so he won't make many of them. The chances of your character

    At this point, you might be thinking "Well what if I know the blacksmith and he owes me a favor?"... How likely is it that you know THE blacksmith who has access to the necessary materials to create a replica of a unique blade? Not very.

    You've got SO MANY things against your character meeting (one of) THE blacksmith(s) who has the necessary materials for your order, one who actually has time to do such, and will offer it to you for a price that is sustainable for you that this just isn't feasible. It's basically saying "Yeah I was one of the few people who killed the Lich King. Technically I DO have a chance!" That's why this is something I'm arguing against. You're backpedaling against so much stuff just to be able to wear a unique weapon around. It's just so unlikely. Quite frankly, it smells of mary suedom.

  19. #19
    Mechagnome Pum's Avatar
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    Jaaaaaaaaaackkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk
    Quote Originally Posted by tweekzlol View Post
    but then again, The Coon is obviously unbeatable as he will just manipulate you into being his friend

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Pum View Post
    Jaaaaaaaaaackkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk
    :O! How... How did you find me.... I CAN HIDE NO WHERE!

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