Legendaries in Role Play

[Pum]

The jig is up!

[Primaliron]

Of course they would but really... think about it. They wouldn't make a lot. There's high demand for the Frostmourne replica in real life, which is actually authentic looking (which mirrors what they would be like in WoW... it's not just as simple as getting several steel ingots and welding them together... It takes time, skill, and precise information that would not be readily available), but there was very few in circulation. They'd also cost a pretty penny, something that an adventurer typically does not have. What is the likelihood of your character having this item? It's very low. It's the same principle of not allowing people to say they've killed a named NPC within the lore. Because there's the possibility of everyone getting it in-game, we as a community have taken a blanket stance on the subject (I.E. we can't say we killed that NPC).

And you have to explain how you got a Sulfuras look-alike, otherwise people assume that you actually have Sulfuras, which makes you look even worse, so yes, you do need to change your backstory, albeit not to a great degree.



The problem is that warcraft legendaries are much more complex than the arms of the past. Not every blacksmith's going to have the skills necessary to make something similar enough to the true in-game model and because you can't really show this in-game, it's stretching what would be plausible, at least in my opinion, but I'm much more of a lore and roleplaying purist than you, obviously.



But that's the thing, in the examples you provided, it's more of a gimmick than an integral aspect of a character, and while that's okay in of itself, It just seems uncomfortable to me that it just so happens to be a replica of a renowned weapon. It worries me because that's a big sign of "I thought it'd be cool" instead of "I thought it would add depth to my character", which is what you want to strive for.



I assure you, there's nothing you can lecture me on in this regard. I'm quite competent, thank you!

I added that last comment more for general consumption than for you whom I assumed have plenty of experience. I also understand your position. I just don't see a warglaive and assume it's supposed to be THE warglaives in character. That in and of itself seems ridiculous to me because a Gnome for instance, could never use them without having them drastically altered. Since it is really unlikely that any individual wielder of a legendary (or other singularly named weapon) is wielding the original, you have to assume it is either a copy, or a case of something being made to look similar. That is assuming your character even knows what the weapon looks like. Of course this is how I view the world as I RP and I don't expect others to always share it.

On the point of Warcraft legendaries being more complex than arms of the past.. that's true, but they are not much more complex than contemporary weapons in Azeroth. There are tons of weapons (presumably smithed by citizens of Azeroth and Outland) which have strange and frankly bizarre appearances. Most of the weapons in TBC for example.

The real deciding factor is going to be whether you consider these weapons to be abnormalities in Azeroth, or normal. I consider them something standard soldiers of the old Allaince races won't get a hold of. I think the replicas they are likely to encounter are more variations on Uther's hammer, which was pretty plain, or Wrynn's swords/sword (not available in game). Orcs will certainly have an attraction to Gorehowl-like blades, if only to recreate the intimidating sound when swung (interestingly there is a knock-off in game in the Blood Furnace). In the case of my DK again, the Quel'Delar and Quel'Serrar are very old blades and the Elves are meticulous about their arcane crafts, so replication of appearance or form is not unlikely. Both swords are similar and the style is likely popular among them when making fine weapons.

On gimmicks... life is full of gimmicks. Show me a marketplace and I will show you gimmicks. Azeroth's marketplaces are no different, there's even an entire race that does it as a matter of course (Goblins). Why? because people love gimmicks. They buy them continually throughout time. There's even a joke vendor inthe game (Griftah) to represent this. If you've never seen soldiers get deployed, take a look at how many "gimmicks" they buy into to comfort themselves.

I'm not just arguing this point for legendaries alone either (especially because I really don't think people should use them personally) but for any named items whether or not they are available. I'm merely making a case that a player "could" have a weapn that looks like one and that it may fit into their story. If someone wants to use this merely as an excuse to have one of these weapons equipped then they should re-evaluate the idea. They should also look at their RP community and what they are doing with their character. RPing an Orc grunt with a Gorehowl-like weapon makes sense if they have any respect for Grom. RPing a Tauren Warrior with warglaive knock-offs would require a story that is overly convoluted in my opinion. An elf with a Thori'dal makes sense to me (especialy if not RPing the laser ammo) because the style is an overly ornate style I could see elves making. If they claim it IS Thori'dal then I would consider it an issue.

Anyway obviously this is all my opinion and like with all RP opinions you can't expect all or sometimes any people to agree with you. I also never thought I would spend this much time arguing a plausible (in my opinion) reason to use things I wish people wouldn't use so much :P

[The Madgod]

Firstly, gimmicks aren't bad, but when they are there as an excuse to add something cool or in replacement of something that actually builds the character, then they are. I think making the excuse that the legendary weapon you have is a replica is one of those bad gimmicks. It doesn't add to your character. It's just there as an excuse.

Secondly, read my reply on the previous page. It covers the likelihood of a player character getting one of these items. Yes, there's a possibility. No, it's not high. It's the same principle of claiming they killed a named NPC.

Do note that certain uniquely named weapons are also generic enough of a weapon style that they could be used. Gorehowl's design is pretty common for axes of its time and Quel'Serrar has been in the care of the kaldorei for long enough that it's relatively likely that it influenced night elven smiths. Other weapons like Thori'dal, the Twin Blades of Azzinoth, Frostmourne, Shadowmourne, Dragonwrath, and the like are very much unique and they WOULD require so much to get a replica that it is just... bad.

[Primaliron]

I'd like to add to that point in saying that really the only well-traveled people are us adventurers.

As well, in order for a sketch to be usable to craft anything resembling an actual legendary weapon, as they're fairly complex, you'd need an artist. That artist would have to have already drawn the weapon (from multiple angles, so it's actually a technical drawing that can be used properly), or would need to track down the single adventurer in the entire world who has that particular weapon. That artist would have to have been commissioned by the blacksmith to do such. The likelyhood of him sharing those "schematics" would be very low, and the chances that there were multiple copies would also be pretty low, since this blacksmith wants to make money and get rich off of these replicas. If he'd share it because he's in a guild, well that's possible, but since there's been no mention of such a thing, then that's another assumption you have to make that gets piled on. As well, the likelihood of MULTIPLE artists doing the same thing is VERY low. Okay so this guy beats the odds and actually gets a workable drawing. Adventurers don't really have much cash, so that cuts out a good portion of the people who would want one of these things.

The practicality of it is another factor. Why should you get a new, very expensive shiny sword, when your current one (or a regular sword, I.E, a cheaper sword) works just fine? You can spend that saved gold on stuff that matters, like bread, wine, and a bed to sleep on while you're in town. As well, we're completely ignoring the fact that blacksmiths are some of the most busy people in the world. They're constantly getting new orders, both from civilians and from the military, and they constantly need to work. When does this guy have the time to reconstruct something as ornate as Shadowmourne? He won't have much time, so he won't make many of them. The chances of your character

At this point, you might be thinking "Well what if I know the blacksmith and he owes me a favor?"... How likely is it that you know THE blacksmith who has access to the necessary materials to create a replica of a unique blade? Not very.

You've got SO MANY things against your character meeting (one of) THE blacksmith(s) who has the necessary materials for your order, one who actually has time to do such, and will offer it to you for a price that is sustainable for you that this just isn't feasible. It's basically saying "Yeah I was one of the few people who killed the Lich King. Technically I DO have a chance!" That's why this is something I'm arguing against. You're backpedaling against so much stuff just to be able to wear a unique weapon around. It's just so unlikely. Quite frankly, it smells of mary suedom.

Sorry I can't keep up on the convo, the internet connectionhere is terrible.

Over the last few hundred years people have replicated a sword off the tomb of the Black Prince. It's not a detailed scematic and it works fine. Why? because swordsmiths know how to make swords and can extrapolate design. As I put in my previous post, legendaries aren't totally alien weapons. Shadowmourne is an axe, it is still made of basic axe parts. The devil is in the details, and if a person wants to use shadowmourne to represent an axe that is similar in design or a knock-off of it, then they have few options but shadowmourne as (despite it's greater similarity to real axes than a lot of in game models) there are few axes like it. In a world that has the insanely weird axes that it does, Shadowmourne is more like a normal axe and therefore more probable to replicate. If they get the runes wrong it isn't going to make the axe unusable. Whiel they may change the number of little spikes, or alter it slightly in a number of ways, they are still weaponsmiths capable of making it a useful weapon. Of course again this requires you to accept the premise that all the weird weapons in Azeroth are representative of a large number of blacksmiths making these weapons.

As for traveling, there's a lot more than us adventurers, there are legions of soldiers moving across continents. Messengers, supply caravans and logistics officers, post masters, ship captains, the engineers who build all these settlements. It is beyond implausible that only adventurer players are responsible for the movement of supplies and building of new fortifications or facilities. There had to be a massive force of engineers from Stormwind and Khaz Modan invade the Southern Barrens. The Allaince and Horde offensives into Northrend and Outland also had major pushes. Hell the Sunfury Elves moved to Outland, invaded Tempest Keep AND learned how to work Naaru tech in less than a decade. Azeroth is not populated entirely by a bunch of backward yokels. They certainly exist, but there are a number of people beyond adventurer PCs out there. This game is FULL of people moving around. They're fighting a world war (interplanetary at times), one that is more of a world war than any our world has fought. There are tons of expeditionary factions that specifically move around and invasion forces. Some of these peopel have already seen continent-wide wars. Hell most of the Draenei have been on at least two planets, some on three. The idea that we are the only people being well traveled is.... just plain wrong. Of course you are welcome to your beliefs, but this one I really don't understand (as compared to your others which I can).

On a more concilliatory note. I do really understand where you are coming from on legendaries. I don't agree with it, but I understand it. In reality I only have one character whom I barely RP who uses my overall concept and I don't suggest it be used willy-nilly as an excuse to have legendaries. It's just a theory for how such a thing could happen in Azeroth. It's also far more of a devil's advocate argument than something I consider modus operandi. We all have our interpretations of the game and the game itself is plagued with inconsistencies because it is a game and not a truly functional world. Each one of us has to determine how we interpret these oddities.

[The Madgod]

I don't believe that adventurers are the only people who travel around. However, they're far more likely to care about random things like what we're discussing. Soldiers? They want to kill the enemy and go home. They hear something interesting about art? Such a minute number of them would be interested enough to follow through on the information. It's not about traveling. It's about the likelihood that an ARTIST would be about who could accurately enough portray the dimensions of the weapon to the point where using a model and claiming that IC it's more of a crude version of it is acceptable. That is low.

You've failed to counter the facts concerning blacksmiths and the utter unlikelihood that they would actually have the time or resources to get any of the information they need in order to even begin replicating these weapons and then actually mass produce enough to the point where it's feasible that a random adventurer would be able to acquire one.

You also have to understand that a lot of the weapons in-game aren't made by blacksmiths that we know. All of those Scourge weapons in Northrend? Made by the Scourge, with their secrets. Ulduar weapons? Titans. Qiraj weapons in Ahn'Qiraj? Speaks for itself. These weapons, while varying in... abnormality, are all made by different groups with different forging secrets. Alliance and Horde blacksmiths might not be able to replicate them to the point of combat viability. The time it would take to learn how to do that would inflate the costs of these weapons even FURTHER.

It's not that there's different interpretations or inconsistencies. You're looking at the right areas, but you're not looking deep enough into them. You see possibility, but not likelihood. There are a plethora of things that make replica weapons so rare that it's just not plausible for a player's character, one face in a sea of hundreds of thousands, to have one.

[Primaliron]

Firstly, gimmicks aren't bad, but when they are there as an excuse to add something cool or in replacement of something that actually builds the character, then they are. I think making the excuse that the legendary weapon you have is a replica is one of those bad gimmicks. It doesn't add to your character. It's just there as an excuse.

On this we obviously agree. In my case I use it as a sort of gimmick, but it ended up becoming an example of my character's love of simplicity.

Secondly, read my reply on the previous page. It covers the likelihood of a player character getting one of these items. Yes, there's a possibility. No, it's not high. It's the same principle of claiming they killed a named NPC

Sorry if I missed anything, I'm doing conference calls for work, chatting with my girlfriend (who wants to debate the finer points of various political issues tonight), and this. One of the reasons I am responding so slowly is trying to keep up :P

Do note that certain uniquely named weapons are also generic enough of a weapon style that they could be used. Gorehowl's design is pretty common for axes of its time and Quel'Serrar has been in the care of the kaldorei for long enough that it's relatively likely that it influenced night elven smiths. Other weapons like Thori'dal, the Twin Blades of Azzinoth, Frostmourne, Shadowmourne, Dragonwrath, and the like are very much unique and they WOULD require so much to get a replica that it is just... bad.

I think here we agree more than previously thought (by me at least) I do think Shadowmourne is actually fairly generic in design to me(and hence why it's one of the few legendaries I love) Thori'dal is just a weird thing to me, I never recognize it so maybe that's why I find it inoffensive. Frostmourne is pretty generic to me as well, just a typical bastard sword with some minute flourishes. I don't think I've ever looked at Atiesh or Dragonwrath because only one toon I play uses them and he's like my 5th or 6th alt. If the warglaives never existed I'd be happy and I certainly think they'd be difficult for a non-elf to replicate in any fashion. I suppose I should also make clear (if I haven't) that any replica I am speaking of would likely possess no powers or be or minimal power that superficially mimics the item. A lot of that will depend on how much you consider enchanting to be normal. I tend to consider it an in demand service, but that only an officer would likely be able to afford enchanted weaponry, except perhaps among the elves, and dependant on the enchant (Orcs might like elemental stuff enough for it to be in demand). That all goes back to the personal interpretation of how common some things are though, and my perceptions are admittedly not the norm.

---------- Post added 2013-01-07 at 11:28 PM ----------

You've failed to counter the facts concerning blacksmiths and the utter unlikelihood that they would actually have the time or resources to get any of the information they need in order to even begin replicating these weapons and then actually mass produce enough to the point where it's feasible that a random adventurer would be able to acquire one.

You also have to understand that a lot of the weapons in-game aren't made by blacksmiths that we know. All of those Scourge weapons in Northrend? Made by the Scourge, with their secrets. Ulduar weapons? Titans. Quiraj weapons in Ahn'Quiraj? Speaks for itself. These weapons, while varying in... abnormality, are all made by different groups with different forging secrets. Alliance and Horde blacksmiths might not be able to replicate them to the point of combat viability. The time it would take to learn how to do that would inflate the costs of these weapons even FURTHER.

I'm going off the fact that there are a number of oddly crafted weapons in the hands of NPCs, not drops. As I've gone into more detail in my last post, some of the legendaries are quite normal in construction with minor flourishes or changes. Yes some of the odd weapons around the world are made by enemy forces and ancient power beyond the capacity of the playable races and their allies. Many weapons that are strange as heel are sold by vendors and stamped with the names of factions accessible to people. True not everyone is going to be able to get an ethereal-crafted blade, or a Draenei mace, or a High/Blood Elven bow, but this is a world at war, with blacksmiths being tasked to provide weapons on a massive scale. Some of thes blacksmiths are definitely seeing odd new weaponry where they are stationed. We even gather weapons for them in game all the time. While you can say this is jsut for gameplay, it's something that happens whenever a culture goes to war. Some of these cultures are inter-mingling with other allied cultures that have different ideas too. It is unlikely that they aren't experimenting, and even less likely that they aren';t lookign for ways to make money. A copy of Frostmourne can be made with steel. Anybody who hasn't seen it won't care how many serrations are on the blade. They are gonna want a bastard sword that has a ram skull and maybe a hilt that looks like it fits. If they can afford an icy enchant or jsut a blue glow they might go for it. Of course I'd probably tell the local authorities someone wants a copy of Frostmourne if I were the blacksmith, but some may just want the cash. Perhaps I've overstated the liklihood of encountering one of these items, but I just have an image of Goblins sitting by the docks hawking replica weapons to departing soldiers.

Anyhow this has been pretty fun, but it's time for bed. I have to go to a meeting in the morning and listen to some PEBCAC issues. I wish I could say I expect the meeting to be as cordial as theis debate. Unfortunately it is also likely going to be as frivolous.

[Mengucekli]

In my opinion, you dont have to have a legendary weapon to be that special. Most of the roleplaying people would name their weapons, and they would be content with it giving them enough flavor. For example, i have a dwarven priest as a rp character, and he wields a light-enchanted Jambiya, a simple yet effective weapon. Simply this is a dagger that can be bought from wep vendors in major cities. Nothing special about it. But it was enchanted with holy light, so this is his Jambiya, the one that glows yellow (+22 intellect enchant ingame? ). He does not have to go all the way through Ulduar, farm stupid materials to reforge a titan made mace that blows off steam, to be that special snowflake.

Combat in RP is nothing like ingame, anything can kill, even a sharpened letter opener, in the correct hands. My other rp character uses self-designed 7 shooter pistols as primary weapons of choice, and in the world where even a single gunshot could kill off anyone, that would be quite over-powered in itself. He does not need a stolen-from-greek-mithology bow that is all shiny and fluffy and procures arrows from pure sunlight and shit to be that special.

For me, it is about how you understand this RP concept: It is not the gear or even the gender/race/class/stuff that makes people special and unique, it is how you roleplay throught them, how you handle different situations, how you relate and interact with other role players.. That makes the difference. Another herpaderp orc death kinght with deppressed childhood that gone through all the trouble of killing Arthas and shit just to recreate a troublesome axe would make no effect on me or my characters, and no i am sorry but he can not drain my character's soul because mine would shoot the fuck out of him before he could even swing that.

Again, these are all my thoughts and opinions on the matter, and as i am a total noob, they may be wrong.

[Caerule]

Overall, I advise my guild to shy away from using Legendary weapons.

Don't get me wrong, some are awesome, look great, and understandably, they are accomplishments people feel proud off and tend to want to share.

The Legendaries are Icons though. They are in the minds of people as such, and are intended as such. Their function of Legendary transcends just being something that looks interesting.

Of course you want your character to be interesting, but I'm of a firm belief that it should be the character, especially the RP and interactions of the character, that should draw people to you. If your weapon is the most interesting thing about you, and I already know your weapon by heart as a Legendary, you become less appealing to RP with. Basically, the Legendary overshadows you, by already being an Icon. Your weapon should never be the most interesting thing about you, in my opinion.

I should state this is just my opinion. It's for similar reasons I encourage people not to start off as a 15.000 year old general, veteran of countless battles. While it sounds like it makes you interesting, basically it limits you. Nothing you'll ever do IC will advance you, or will measure up to what you've already seen in life. Your interactions and RP right now should always be the most interesting, and your most exciting adventures yet ahead of you, is my advice. But, I've strayed off the topic.

Getting back to the subjects of Smithing. Yes, the skills of the basic blacksmiths is likely limited. Most players have more income for their characters though, and if not may at least have family heirlooms or trophies. Either way, if you wish examples of what Horde and Alliance blacksmiths can make in quality, I say why not check out Trial of the Crusader loot, and even some PvP gear.

Yes, our enemies have their own ways of smithing, but I very much doubt that, when their lairs and strongholds were plundered, that these secrets were not brought back to benefit the Horde and Alliance's master blacksmiths. Of course not everything can be reproduced, but I doubt you can state that there are no people that can't make a lot of those weapons for you.

[freakyduck]

Allright, being an owner of Sulfuras, and having made it with other Rp'ers as a weapon which is in similar design, but to hold the Light instead of the fire for its glow, calling it Nolduras or something different, and claiming it is just in similar design, would that spark you off or would you be able to accept it for the fact that the person would be using it for its model only, to represent its glow effect?

Legendaries I have seen being used by many players, and even though a player may use it IC for its models, would you still have a go? Or Ask?

What are the rules concerning Legendaries. Are they Taboo? What would be a better weapon choice in terms of glowy hammers for Sulfuras, or dark glaives, even Shadowmourne for the would be Death knight that loves that axe?

I am curious of peoples response, since on our Server it is varied

I'm no RP'er so my answer may be completely off base, but here goes: Doesn't the fact that it takes a Blacksmith to even create the 1st stage of Sulfuras mean it's possible have something SIMILAR in looks? For one thing, Sulfuron (or whatever the Epic crafted version is called) is crafted and looks exactly like the legendary, without the glow effect. Secondly, wouldn't that really cement what the OP is saying? That his "Sulfuras" copy has a different glow effect, but still a similar look?

I suppose it would go like this: OP gets a smith to create the Sulfuron Hammer, then OP has his weapon "blessed" or enchanted with whatever causes his desired "light" effect.

If that doesn't work, can't you just go get the remade Sulfuras from Firelands and do the same thing, minus the "Legendary" issue? Or do you guys just pick a certain level and stay at it, making FL out of the question? As i said, i am ignorant to the rules of RP Realms, so please bear with me.