5.2 Enhancement DPS Talents discussion

[Corixa]

How do you use Simcraft that way to show you all those talent combinations in order like that? I really only have used simcraft to input my gear and give me stat weights for reforging but I've never used it/seen it that way before and would love to test those different ability combinations with my own gear ect.

1. import your char into simcraft (b.net, chardev, rawr, sample profile), copy everything just imported in the simulate tab, to a text file ____.simc
Youll be able to rename this profile by editing the simc file, this simc file will be the base for all simulations. This step is necessary if you're not directly importing from your armory. For example, if i want to manually edit reforges and gems. Otherwise, you can use this line, replace with your character name and realm

armory=us,caelestrasz,corixa
name=Corixa_Armory

2. Delete everything in the "simulate" tab
3. Add a new section for each "copy" of the base profile in step 1, here, i name the new copy "EE_UF" which has a different talent from the base profile, if you wish to sim with different glyphs you can also add a line for glyphs

copy=EE_PE
talents=http://us.battle.net/wow/en/tool/talent-calculator#WZ!220011
glyphs=spirit_walk/healing_storm/flame_shock/spectral_wolf/astral_recall/deluge

4. so in your simulation tab you should have

armory=us,caelestrasz,corixa
name=Corixa_Armory

copy=EE_UF
talents=http://us.battle.net/wow/en/tool/talent-calculator#WZ!220210
glyphs=spirit_walk/healing_storm/flame_shock/spectral_wolf/astral_recall/deluge

or, if you use a simc file

/profiles/_____.simc #or where ever you saved your simc file.

copy=EE_UF
talents=http://us.battle.net/wow/en/tool/talent-calculator#WZ!220210
glyphs=spirit_walk/healing_storm/flame_shock/spectral_wolf/astral_recall/deluge

add as many copy as you like

[BigLeague]

It would increase our AoE capabilities, but it's more-so the limiting factor of Fire Nova. For example on Tortos, when you're AoE'ing the Vampiric Cave Bats, your process of AoE would be to do:

Flame Shock -> Lava Lash -> Fire Nova -> Chain Lightning

Idea: change glyph of fire nova: Increases the radius of your fire nova by 5 yards and causes it to pulse every 2 seconds for 10 seconds. (adust dmg accordingly).
Are you listening Blizz??!!

[Skillpadde]

Since the patch I've gone to a full haste reforge and am playing with AS/PE. I started the tier in close to full BiS T14hc gear so I figured my gear levels were probably at the "high" level recommended to try hasteforge. I've found it to be very pleasing so far- my burst in 10man is roughly 285k on a pull with heroism and all cooldowns, and on fights I can sustain on (Durumu, Council, Jinrok) I'm very high on the meters. Add swap fights are still our weakness with this spec and the forging out of mastery to haste means that our AoE spread with Fire Nova/Flame Shock is not quite as high, but Enh has never been an AoE king so I'm not particularly bothered by this. We're still single target beasts, and tbh this change to specs to encourage less rigidity is a good thing imo. There will be certain fights taking EM will probably be the way to go (Primodious, for example) which is nice as in the previous tier there were no fights where you'd even consider changing spec.
Overall I'm quite happy with the changes, it's not taken that much adaptation imo and I'm quite excited for higher gear levels in T15. I was always a fan of the haste monster feel in ICC and like the feeling of Enh going back to that.

[Jecht]

Gotten 2 tier pieces and Bad Juju (10m) and Im debating if I should swap to full haste build. Especially given that only a couple of fights actually require you to burst down a boss, such as Dark Animus but at the same time there is a large number of target switching encounters like Ji-kun if you are on the egg's group.

Also 2pc bonus feels weird. I hardcast LB MSWx4 then SS and sometimes i get 5 stacks instantly and shoot another one. Wouldn't a haste build somewhat reduce the slight control given to us by this bonus?

I'd also like to hear your opinions regarding the trinket from Lei Shen as I heard GC had a specific interest in it because of us and windwalkers i belive.

[Corixa]

Gotten 2 tier pieces and Bad Juju (10m) and Im debating if I should swap to full haste build. Especially given that only a couple of fights actually require you to burst down a boss, such as Dark Animus but at the same time there is a large number of target switching encounters like Ji-kun if you are on the egg's group.

Also 2pc bonus feels weird. I hardcast LB MSWx4 then SS and sometimes i get 5 stacks instantly and shoot another one. Wouldn't a haste build somewhat reduce the slight control given to us by this bonus?

I'd also like to hear your opinions regarding the trinket from Lei Shen as I heard GC had a specific interest in it because of us and windwalkers i belive.

I just got 2pc as well, tried it on a target dummy and maelstrom procs like crazy, and I felt that there are lots of wasted charges that i can't do anything about (playing with australian latency), thus, i feel that a haste build will make this issue more significant, or maybe we need to adjust to hardcast at even 3 maelstrom charges.

I also feel that sim for 2pc t15 is not working, as i sim significantly less than 4pc t14

[Jecht]

Yes we should problably hardcast sooner and even though I don't have sims to back up my claims the loss of 15% crit for LB and LS drops the damage from a Echo+UF setup by quite alot.

[Corixa]

Also, I think haste is aim higher in t15 bis is because of the rppm stuff.. Until you get some of those mastery will most likely be better still

---------- Post added 2013-03-10 at 05:25 PM ----------

Yes we should problably hardcast sooner and even though I don't have sims to back up my claims the loss of 15% crit for LB and LS drops the damage from a Echo+UF setup by quite alot.

I simmed with every talent combo with 2pc t15 and ee, uf still came up on top with a mastery build

[Protoman]

Gotten 2 tier pieces and Bad Juju (10m) and Im debating if I should swap to full haste build. Especially given that only a couple of fights actually require you to burst down a boss, such as Dark Animus but at the same time there is a large number of target switching encounters like Ji-kun if you are on the egg's group.

Also 2pc bonus feels weird. I hardcast LB MSWx4 then SS and sometimes i get 5 stacks instantly and shoot another one. Wouldn't a haste build somewhat reduce the slight control given to us by this bonus?

I'd also like to hear your opinions regarding the trinket from Lei Shen as I heard GC had a specific interest in it because of us and windwalkers i belive.

Thats a good point.....more LB's via set bonus will get boosted with mastery more then haste also......personally I wouldn't stack haste above all else, find a happy medium between the two stats, aim for a cap of a certain % haste and then go max out mastery, or just focus on mastery.....its better on stuff like aoe, quick target switches, and for just all fights in general.....where haste IMO shines only on fights where you can stick to target for long periods of time.

I am curious how much the 10% haste on AS is helping us, as well as if the +Agility on EB made any difference.

As someone else pointed out, I do like the EoE/ULF combo because they are passive buffs and prefer it on most fights unless you really need controlled burst where EM/PE seems to make more sense.

PE has become much more preferred because of bonus damage buff and haste working on the elems right? I'm sure haste helps the LS procs from ULF WF also.

[zandervont]

I'm quite pleased on the Enhancement now. ´We did Tortos last night, without Virmen's Bite I managed to get my initial burst to 500k and ended the fight ranking #9 enhance shaman on World of Logs. I could have weaved a few more Novas around but whatever, still glad on the numbers.
I'm currently using EM/PE with FET glyph and around 9000 mastery/6000 haste. I also have gotten Bad Juju and the new VP trinket.

[Falling]

Why would you have wasted procs? ALWAYS cast lightning bolt before you do stormstrike. If you have 2p t15*

[Corixa]

Why would you have wasted procs? ALWAYS cast lightning bolt before you do stormstrike. If you have 2p t15*

I doubt i would be beneficial to cast lightning bolt even with 1-2 maelstrom stacks. You CAN actually get 5 stacks in 1 stormstrike if you're lucky, or close enough that a human wont notice the time difference.

[Jecht]

I have a bit more than 12k mastery and 20% haste and if everything procs and crits on a pull I can get 360-390k dps. takes a while to drop down to 120ish tho. (Echo+UF)

Currently soaking the Bouncing Bolts and Static Shocks with a DK on one of Lei Shen's platforms I seriously recommend Healing Stream Glyph and Astral Shift otherwise you WILL die.

[Corixa]

been running EM/PM (glyphed FET) tonight and really liking it even for petchwerk type seems to line up pretty well with my trinket procs (bottle of infinite stars/ vicious Talisman of the shadow-pan assault)
lots of cds to use for trinket procs/burn phase/stationary phases

[Embermoon]

Thats a good point.....more LB's via set bonus will get boosted with mastery more then haste also......personally I wouldn't stack haste above all else, find a happy medium between the two stats, aim for a cap of a certain % haste and then go max out mastery, or just focus on mastery.....its better on stuff like aoe, quick target switches, and for just all fights in general.....where haste IMO shines only on fights where you can stick to target for long periods of time.

I am curious how much the 10% haste on AS is helping us, as well as if the +Agility on EB made any difference.

As someone else pointed out, I do like the EoE/ULF combo because they are passive buffs and prefer it on most fights unless you really need controlled burst where EM/PE seems to make more sense.

PE has become much more preferred because of bonus damage buff and haste working on the elems right? I'm sure haste helps the LS procs from ULF WF also.

For the moment, I'm running with AS/UF or AS/PE, on most fights. With the slight nerf to UF's LB damage debuff, it feels like the added haste is allowing me to ramp up maelstrom stacks more quickly, and get more LB casts off. It may just be that the added haste is simply making the maelstrom stacks happen more smoothly, as opposed to "dry" periods, followed by back-to-back 5-stacks of MSW.

The boost to elems from haste is insane, for burst phases. In 5.1, I would have crested at maybe slightly over 200k, on a non-gimmick burst phase. However, last night on Tsulong, if the parse is correct, then I apparently peaked over 303k, with a combo of AS+PE. I opted to take AS over EM, so that I'd have better dps on the sun phases.

I can't speak to EB, because I only tried it briefly, and couldn't stand the hardcasting aspect of it. If it was allowed to be instant, with MSWx5, then I might enjoy it.

[Corixa]

I'm very lucky to have already obtained 4pc. Going to try haste build, as sim suggests 2x haste > agi for me. With more haste it is going to increase the 4pc uptime and also my primal fire elemental.

[Drebbin]

I'm very lucky to have already obtained 4pc. Going to try haste build, as sim suggests 2x haste > agi for me. With more haste it is going to increase the 4pc uptime and also my primal fire elemental.

Yeah from what I have read, gemming haste becomes the way to go when you go PE/EM or PE/AS.

[Xeonde]

Gemming haste over agility???

[Corixa]

Gemming haste over agility???

looks that way according to sim, but will try in real raid and see how it goes
Agi 4.24, crit 1.77, mastery 1.84, haste 2.16
did a haste reforge plot and shows dps significantly increases with haste
will reforge to haste and do another sim to see if i should regem haste

---------- Post added 2013-03-11 at 05:20 PM ----------

Actually, i dont think the sim is working for set bonuses atm, results look weird. Getting a massive dps loss upgrading 2x normal t14 to t15 and a 510 to 528 weapon

[caballitomalo]

The way I see it, EM and PE have the draw back of "fight length", while EotE and UF rettain its value regardless. In burst fights its a no brainer but on anything else you have to make a choice.

Most people see "combo X" makes the most on the sims and they go for it. The numbers Ive seen around just tell me that the difference isnt so great for you to pick a clear winner (which is the original design intent for the new talent system all along).

Same thing goes with secondary stats, I don´t see too much evidence for an "all out haste" build. I, for one, am sticking to a balanced mastery/haste build and switching talents per fight. That makes more sence than sticking to a build beacause a sim with bis gear (which I dont have) puts out the biggest number (which is no were near what Im doing in reality) on a patchwerk fight (which most fight arent).

Now, just to be clear, I do recognise the merit, value and use of sims. I base my dessisions on the results of sims most of the time, but we have to be reasonable about it above all.

[Embermoon]

Does the 10% melee haste buff from AS factor into RPPM mechanics, or is it only "true" haste that affects RPPMs?

If AS doesn't boost RPPMs, then I can see why EM could be slightly better, even on a Patchwerk-type fight.

---------- Post added 2013-03-11 at 06:55 PM ----------

Nevermind. I was actually able to find the answer, with a Google search:

This Real PPM is increased by your haste %. (The highest of your melee, ranged, or spell haste is chosen).

---------- Post added 2013-03-11 at 07:19 PM ----------

The way I see it, EM and PE have the draw back of "fight length", while EotE and UF rettain its value regardless. In burst fights its a no brainer but on anything else you have to make a choice.

If you take the fire elemental glyph, then the 1.5 min CD of EM lines up very nicely with the 3 min CD of the elemental, and the haste buff is huge, for the elemental's damage. Also, keep in mind that haste is huge, for RPPM mechanics, and our dancing steel enchants are RPPM-based, as are most, if not all of the trinkets in 5.2.

Same thing goes with secondary stats, I don´t see too much evidence for an "all out haste" build. I, for one, am sticking to a balanced mastery/haste build and switching talents per fight. That makes more sence than sticking to a build beacause a sim with bis gear (which I dont have) puts out the biggest number (which is no were near what Im doing in reality) on a patchwerk fight (which most fight arent).

Now, just to be clear, I do recognise the merit, value and use of sims. I base my dessisions on the results of sims most of the time, but we have to be reasonable about it above all.

Take a moment, and click on my armory link, please. Then, take note of my haste (42.75%) and mastery (44.63%) percentages. That's after relenting, and adopting an "all out haste" build (as opposed to my previous 18% haste, 49% mastery EotE/UF build). I currently have AS & PE. If I were to drop my AS talent, and pick up EM, then that melee haste becomes 32.75%, or 39.35% effective, if you treat EM as having a 22% uptime.

If you really want an even build, between mastery and haste, you'll likely find that you have to go all out haste, just to keep them close to even.