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  1. #21
    The Patient Xeonde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razecog View Post
    I'll most likely still go with EotE/UF because i like the sustained dmg.
    I've always prefered sustained dmg over burst for some reason. :>
    I'll likely do this or UF+AS
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xeonde View Post
    I'll likely do this or UF+AS
    Yes this is a peace of mind sub-spec, however i did try for 2 weeks the EM-PE with FE glyphed and it wasn't bad. I tried it at 5.1 and i will say that it is harder to manage so many CDs and it seems that only the pro enhancement shamans will use it perfectly.

    I was thinking though, that Blizzard has given to all classes and specs many many cooldowns for a reason. The wisdom and experience to use the CDs right on time on an encounter will save a wipe and make an easy kill. On this only, i do believe that a heavy CD based sub-spec (Elemental mastery with Primal Elementalist-Fire elemental glyphed) might give the best possible performance on fights that CDs and timing matters.

    On Garalon 25N and Heroic that i played (few weeks ago as EM & PE for testing, 5.1 MoP), using my CDs stacked and only on legs gave the best possible dps, for my skill. Now with smaller CDs you can fine tune them easily and land them only on legs without having them on hold for long. There are many other examples out there, Windlord HC, Bladelord HC are also good examples.
    About AoE i will just say that i guess more haste will give you the leisure to squeeze in easily two skills between spamming the fire nova skill ^^.

    Code:
    Elemental mastery with Primal Elementalist-Fire elemental glyphed    and at some point 15tier 4set bonus will give the best result
    on fights that you have learnt well and have the focus and time to micromanage your CDs properly.
    However on new encounters a simple sub-spec like EoTE and UF will be easier to use and will give you time to learn the encounter faster while doing fine dps.

    Now the real question is..

    What do we do with reforge if we decide to go EM and PE at 5.2? Do we reforge and/or re-gem to haste?
    Should we keep a certain max distance between the values from gear about Haste and Mastery?
    Last edited by voskopoula; 2013-03-04 at 01:35 AM.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by voskopoula View Post
    Now the real question is..

    What do we do with reforge if we decide to go EM and PE at 5.2? Do we reforge and/or re-gem to haste?
    Should we keep a certain max distance between the values from gear about Haste and Mastery?
    Personally I would just reforge to haste > mastery on your new gear and do it progressively, since haste is only really superior to mastery when we get into the later gear levels.
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  4. #24
    Sigh... patch is tomorrow and I still don´t know what talents I´ll end up using. The problem with a CD driven build is that you are prey of fight lengths. Now, Im of the mind that if a boss dies then all is well, but I know most people want to see their name topping the charts all the time and with a build based on multiple length CDs, that can come and go as progression happens.

    Im fine with every talent excluding EB and AS but Im willing to pick either if they are strong.

    I would really like to see some solid theory crafting on the talent choices (well, more theory crafting actually) before I make a choice.

    A good thing to note: is not only "which one sims the highest" but also "whats the delta between the highest and the lowest". Some people feel like the HAVE to pick a certain set of talents because they are the "best" when, chances are, that if you take under account latency, human error, siming error, gear difference, fight mechanics and raid composition all talent choices would yield very similar results with the "best choice that yields the most dps" being just a few points higher.

  5. #25
    Yeah, I'll probably end up simming EotE/UF and EM/PE for an hour or so tomorrow to figure this out. Is a 5.2 compatible simc out yet?
    Art of Hozen-fu:
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  6. #26
    is troll beating out orc for EM+PE? or is orc still the best overall for the 2% damage

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Barky View Post
    Personally I would just reforge to haste > mastery on your new gear and do it progressively, since haste is only really superior to mastery when we get into the later gear levels.
    Progressively? Sorry, I guess I don't get it exactly, haha. Bit by bit? Just simming out every change?

    I plan on trying out EM/AS and PE based on situation, but I am seriously confused on the haste thing. Right now, I've just been reforging to where everything pretty much has Mastery > Haste on it, excluding a couple solid Haste-only items that simmed some DPS increases. So, with 5.2 and PE and all- would this just switch to Haste > Mastery and just sim to see if leaving Mastery alone would be a DPS increase? I just am curious before I adjust the stat weights and all that. And even without reforging, should we switch to the orange AGI/Haste gems?

    As for Haste being better at higher gear levels... I guess I'm just curious as to when exactly that is. I mainly do LFR at this point, and will be doing normals in a while with my guild. I have mainly LFR and Valor stuff. Is Haste even going to be beneficial, or is that at late Normal/Heroic gear levels? In regards to which LFR/Normals, the new raid will more than likely be LFR-only for me for a while, so I'm assuming not- but then I wonder if speccing into EM/AS and PE are worth it without the higher gear levels. Most sim stuff and class guides are done on gear way better than mine.
    Last edited by Shamaninin; 2013-03-05 at 07:14 PM.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Shamaninin View Post
    Progressively? Sorry, I guess I don't get it exactly, haha. Bit by bit? Just simming out every change?

    I plan on trying out EM/AS and PE based on situation, but I am seriously confused on the haste thing. Right now, I've just been reforging to where everything pretty much has Mastery > Haste on it, excluding a couple solid Haste-only items that simmed some DPS increases. So, with 5.2 and PE and all- would this just switch to Haste > Mastery and just sim to see if leaving Mastery alone would be a DPS increase? I just am curious before I adjust the stat weights and all that.

    As for Haste being better at higher gear levels... I guess I'm just curious as to when exactly that is. I mainly do LFR at this point, and will be doing normals in a while with my guild. I have mainly LFR and Valor stuff. Is Haste even going to be beneficial, or is that at late Normal/Heroic gear levels?
    Basically, haste scales with ilvl better than mastery does, seeing the largest gains (in particular) when you acquire rppm effects (trinkets + legendary meta gem). When the patch hits live servers you probably won't see too much different from what you're used to (the talents may even be within spitting distance of balanced at this point), but things will start to diverge as you acquire more and more ToT gear.

    Best way to know if you're picking the correct stats or talents is to sim it whenever you change something, unfortunately.

  9. #29
    Thank you for the confirmation. That Legendary gem does seem quite nice for that.

    I figure I'll at least try out the new talents, but it is good to know that even without a super amount of Haste right now that I won't have to drop a ton of gold to reforge at once. It's not a problem, but it seems it would've been wasted without the newer gear, as you mentioned.

  10. #30
    I got a question about PE's usage. I was under the impression that PE required a lot of managing/balancing between using empower for yourself and letting it attack on it's own for more damage. Looking at some sims it never shows empower as a buff meaning it doesn't use it...? Is PE as simple as managing it's CD usage to get the most out of it and doesn't require micro managing the actual spells the elemental uses?

  11. #31
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    AS/UF according to latest sim (MY current gear), will be going mastery though
    everything is close
    if anyones interested http://nerdqt.com/simc/Corixa-6-3-2013.html

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-06 at 02:34 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Corixa View Post
    AS/UF according to latest sim (MY current gear), will be going mastery though
    everything is close
    if anyones interested http://nerdqt.com/simc/Corixa-6-3-2013.html
    went with that tonight in raid, not good, not a single tank and spank fight, I think its best to switch for each boss (only done 5 bosses tonight)

    i think for jin'rohk - EM/PE
    Horridon - EE/UF
    Council - EE/PE
    Tortos - EE/UF
    Megaea - AS/UF
    Last edited by Corixa; 2013-03-06 at 02:34 PM.

  12. #32
    Just to add my 2 cents, based on our kill of 10m Jin'rokh and our attempts on 10m Horridon: (and, for some reason, WoL didn't record the Jin'rokh kill, it seems)

    Not using DPS cooldowns:
    - I went with AS+PE, as a test, where I had been EotE+UF, all through 5.0 & 5.1. I noticed that single-target and short-lived trash saw me at 4th and 5th place, on the damage meters, where I'd usually been 1st or 2nd, before.
    - AoE could be decent, but only after I was able to get a 2nd or 3rd fire nova off, and on trash where enough mobs lived long enough, but was still placing 3rd or 4th on recount. Spriest, arcane mage, and hunter just did that much more.
    - DPS on trash was ~50k, roughly a 30-50k dps reduction, from similar trash packs in 5.1.
    - DPS on boss fights saw me extremely low - only above the tanks. In 5.1, I was typically 1st or 2nd.

    Popping DPS cooldowns:
    - Burst DPS was upwards of 200k, which was roughly 40k-50k more than non-gimmick boss fights in 5.1. During burst phases, glances at recount seemed to show my damage being roughtly twice the player in 2nd place.
    - Damage/DPS evened out, over the course of a boss fight, yet I still wound up in 1st place, more often than not. (only being beaten by the spriest who has 3 ilvls on me)

    Also to note, my gemming is still centered around Agi, but I think once I get 4 pc T15, I'll change my gemming strat to center around haste, and favor either EM+PE, or AS+PE. I noticed that crit made a HUGE difference, on some attempts, depending on whether the mage gave me the 5% crit buff, or not. I keep having a nagging suspicion that we're undervaluing crit, as a community.

    I'm going to test out EM/PE on Jin'rokh, as it makes sense, and EotE/UF on the next Horridon attempt, as it makes more sense, for nuking trash, as quickly as possible.

    If both EotE/UF and EM/PE function well, overall, then I'll probably use them, in combination with my current agi-gemming, and mastery > haste > crit reforging.

  13. #33
    Jin Rokh - EM / PE

    I went with EM / PE on this fight, Re-equipping your trinkets to activate their ICD works well to line them up with the first damage increase phase 30 seconds into the encounter. Pop all cooldowns and top DPS. My kill of this fight was roughly 3:10 or so, however I'm sure on Heroic, glyphing Fire Elemental will be the best course of action, as you will be able to get Primal Fire Elementals off, with EM during the damage increase phase. I finished the fight at around 180k DPS (Using a mix of mains and alts, so kill could have been even faster).

    Horridon - EoE / UF (PE works well here if you use at start of fight, then sit on it till 200% increased damage taken phase)

    I chose to run Echo of the Elements and Unleashed Fury because the majority of the fight is based around target switching and AoE. I chose not to run Primal Elementalist, because it gives you insane damage for 1 minute (Fire Ele), and then your damage is greatly reduced over the next 4 minutes. Horridon requires consistent damage throughout the entirety of the encounter, as it's important to focus down key adds. If your raid has good enough add damage, Primal Elementalist is also a viable option, which you would use at the beginning of the encounter, and then save it until there is the 200% increased damage taken phase near the end, to get the most use out of it. I can't give you an accurate account of my DPS, because I was haste reforged with haste gems, which doesn't really synchronize well with EoE / UF, however I was about middle of the pack, because Enhancements' AoE is shit.

    Council - EoE / UF (EM / PE works fine)

    I decided to run EoE and UF, assuming that my guild would just have the bosses stacked up together, however this was not the case, and as a result I think EoE got wasted. This is a pretty melee unfriendly fight, lots of target switching, movement, focus interrupts etc. I'm sure EM / PE would work fine here. DPS was about even with most other classes (excluding multi-dotters), however breakdowns were completely different, majority of our damage is single target, because our AoE relative to other classes is pretty shocking.

    Tortos - EoE / UF

    EoE is good on this fight if you're strategy is to have the melee kill the vampiric Cave Bats. There isn't much target switching going on, so Primal Elementalist could work fine. Main thing with Tortos is to save your cooldowns for 30 seconds into the fight when the first shell gets kicked into Tortos, as this is when he takes increased damage, and also when you should use lust. Once again, our damage is primarily single target, as we are probably the worst class / spec for AoE at this point.

    Megaera - EM / PE

    EM and PE worked fine for this fight, for melee it's basically a sit and spam fight, EM / PE works well as you should have them both coming back up by the time you lust (2nd to last head). Since this is a single target fight, I just went with the talents that do the most single target damage. I finished the fight at around 120k - 125k DPS.

    Ji-Kun - EM / PE

    EoE / UF could potentially be equally viable as EM / PE for this fight, however I chose to take EM / PE because I was able to time getting the Nutriment buff (100% increased damage) with my second EM / PE. If your raid is struggling with adds, then EoE / UF(PE) could be useful, however they die pretty quickly on normal mode, so it may not be necessary.

    All I've done so far (Doing 2 split raids), will update with more later on. ;O

    السلام عليكم

  14. #34
    Defines, thanks for posting that - that's good feedback to have, for when I get to those bosses.

    On the topic of AoE, would you think that a reforge build, favoring mastery, would change your opinion of Enhancement's AoE capabilities, on those fights?

  15. #35
    With PE do you channel empower or let it dps?

  16. #36
    Stood in the Fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madfrog View Post
    With PE do you channel empower or let it dps?
    Letting it dps will always win.

  17. #37
    My PE was doing around 3 mil dmg on the first pool of Jinrokh (glyphed elemental), as Enhance so I'm quite sure that Empower is not enough to beat that.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Embermoon View Post
    Defines, thanks for posting that - that's good feedback to have, for when I get to those bosses.

    On the topic of AoE, would you think that a reforge build, favoring mastery, would change your opinion of Enhancement's AoE capabilities, on those fights?
    It would increase our AoE capabilities, but it's more-so the limiting factor of Fire Nova. For example on Tortos, when you're AoE'ing the Vampiric Cave Bats, your process of AoE would be to do:

    Flame Shock -> Lava Lash -> Fire Nova -> Chain Lightning

    Depending on the AoE capability of your raid, and depending on whether or not your ranged are AoE'ing also, it is very possible that the Cave Bats are dead already, if not, you may be able to get an additional Fire Nova off if you're lucky. The problem is that we don't have any 'snap' AoE, we have to spend 2 GCD's to enable us to do any sort of respectable AoE, and then our one AoE spell, doesn't do an amazing amount of damage, and it also has a 4 second cooldown. While one Fire Nova might hit for about 500k all up, you have to wait 4 seconds to do another one, by which point, every other spec / class will have put millions of damage into the Cave Bats already.

    السلام عليكم

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Corixa View Post
    AS/UF according to latest sim (MY current gear), will be going mastery though
    everything is close
    if anyones interested http://nerdqt.com/simc/Corixa-6-3-2013.html

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-06 at 02:34 PM ----------



    went with that tonight in raid, not good, not a single tank and spank fight, I think its best to switch for each boss (only done 5 bosses tonight)

    i think for jin'rohk - EM/PE
    Horridon - EE/UF
    Council - EE/PE
    Tortos - EE/UF
    Megaea - AS/UF

    How do you use Simcraft that way to show you all those talent combinations in order like that? I really only have used simcraft to input my gear and give me stat weights for reforging but I've never used it/seen it that way before and would love to test those different ability combinations with my own gear ect.

  20. #40
    You can create a Chardev file and drop it into Simc for simming purposes.
    Art of Hozen-fu:
    Grab, stab and ookin bite it.
    Repeat until win

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