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  1. #1
    The Lightbringer Lovestar's Avatar
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    [SURVIVAL] Some less-obvious priority/rotation questions

    Sorry if any of these are obvious via basic arithmetic, I'm just not numbers-oriented and I appreciate people who sort this stuff out. :p

    I'm just curious what the priority is for some of the more obscure mash-ups:

    AoE...
    - GT vs. normal Multi-Shot
    - GT vs. ToTH Multi-Shot
    - And does anything change if Barrage is taken instead?

    ST...
    - GT vs. ToTH Arcane Shot
    - And in general, does ToTH change Arcane Shot's priority position?
    - Where does Blink Strike fall in the priority?

    Serpent Sting...
    Does Serpent Sting snapshot stats and then roll increased damage indefinitely via Cobra Shot? Likewise, is it worthwhile to manually reapply Serpent Sting if you get a temporary damage increase?

  2. #2
    GT/Barrage>Multishot except for the first Multishot to get stings rolling.

    GT is always higher priority than arcane shot.

    SS updates dynamically though there does seem to be a delay sometimes, so you don't need to worry about refreshing SS at all unless it actually falls off. Nowadays only bleeds (like LR) snapshot stats.

  3. #3
    didn't do maths to back it up, mostly dummy testing and common sense, but this his how I handle it:

    GT vs MS: go GT. more dmg, less focus cost, obviuos one :-)
    GT vs ToTH MS: here I try to bleed of all ToTH stacks befor using GT, just because you don't want GT to procc ToTH when you have allready got ToTH (waste of stacks)
    Barrage is a bit different, because its at 30 focus cost, which isn't much better than 40. (when you have no ToTH and are trying to get the ToTH proccs) I use it on CD.

    GT vs ToTH Arcane: If ToTH isn't going to fall off in a sec, I would use GT. you don't want to delay it to often, because of the relativly short CD.
    no ToTH doesn't change your shot prio much, but can maybe influence your rota. with ToTH you can easily cast 3 instants + 1 Cobra in between 2 ES. (the instants still following your normal shot prio)
    Blink strike follows behind ES and BA, in front of GT/Barr.

    Serpent Sting does not snapshot, but updates automatically. (not sure if it's on a tick basis, or when cobras hit) conclusion: never reapply manually when still on mob.

    remember, this is all IMO. im open for discussions :-)

  4. #4
    The Lightbringer Lovestar's Avatar
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    Thank you. Those all make sense to me and it helps a lot.

  5. #5
    Dreadlord the0o's Avatar
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    Got a few questions myself :

    Glyph of Marked for Death, Does this apply hunters mark before or after the damage and will it only apply it to one target at a time?

    Is their a marco to lets me Cast misdirection on my focus target?

    Glyph of Camo : Why dont hunters use this in PVP?

    Is the "standard" pvp pet still a spider?

    "Humility defeats pride, Master Yang has preached. Pride defeats man"


  6. #6
    hmm... dont think GT will win in aoe situation, u guys have any math? last time when i was doin Wind Lord, i just pwn other hunter (whos using glaive toss) with only multishots (+toth)... but forgot to check recount dmg so need to wait next week for that.
    Last edited by yakuz; 2013-01-11 at 02:50 PM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by the0o View Post
    Got a few questions myself :

    Glyph of Marked for Death, Does this apply hunters mark before or after the damage and will it only apply it to one target at a time?

    Is their a marco to lets me Cast misdirection on my focus target?

    Glyph of Camo : Why dont hunters use this in PVP?

    Is the "standard" pvp pet still a spider?
    Have you ever tried to KC while your pet is out of range? It'll apply the mark but not do the KC, which implies it's two separate, discrete effects (as opposed to HM being chained to a KC/CS/ES). Since they are discrete effects, I imagine one comes before the other. I always HM before the pull, so I couldn't really tell you which, but it'd be pretty crap design to put the HM event after the signature shot event.

    A macro for MD on your focus:

    /cast [@focus, noharm, exists] Misdirection

    Does nothing if you have no focus, btw.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by the0o View Post
    Is their a marco to lets me Cast misdirection on my focus target?
    To add to esch's macro:

    #showtooltip Misdirection
    /cast [@focus, help] [@pet, nodead, exists] Misdirection

    Casts on pet if no focus exists.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by the0o View Post
    Got a few questions myself :

    Glyph of Marked for Death, Does this apply hunters mark before or after the damage and will it only apply it to one target at a time?

    Is their a marco to lets me Cast misdirection on my focus target?

    Glyph of Camo : Why dont hunters use this in PVP?

    Is the "standard" pvp pet still a spider?
    Hunter's Mark is applied through the glyph before the damage is done with either of those abilities. It only applies it to one target at a time.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by yakuz View Post
    hmm... dont think GT will win in aoe situation, u guys have any math? last time when i was doin Wind Lord, i just pwn other hunter (whos using glaive toss) with only multishots (+toth)... but forgot to check recount dmg so need to wait next week for that.
    it does more damage than a mutli, if you position yourself correctly (so that the glaives hit mobs on the way to target, and on the way back)
    but even if multi did more damage (which can be, because GT can be bit buggy, ie not hit mobs twice when they are standing near to primary target etc)
    you should still use GT as a cheaper way to procc ToTH (when you have no ToTH stacks anymore)

  11. #11
    This is something that i've never understood.

    Fervor's focus generation is nearly identical to ToTH's, is less unpredictable, and is actual focus that can be used on anything (BA/ES/MoC) rather than just arcane and multi. Not only that, but the focus is also granted to your pet which adds a little extra damage there too.

    Here's a snapshot from Sha HC P2 only (full fight logs are skewed by range + platform afking so procs cant really be trusted from that)

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...s=9396&e=10172

    Calebh ToTH Procs: 41 (*60) = 2460 "focus"
    Eiwo Procs: 48 (*60) = 2800 "focus"
    Dela Fervor focus = 2486 + 2486 to pet. - I cast it 25 times for 2500 focus but i overcapped briefly at some point
    Parse is also 12mins 56s long so that means i should have max 27 fervors (25 time + 3 readiness -1 wait time on clipping [3x10s]), so i dropped at least one somewhere

    Now consider that I can use that focus on anything I want (off GCD so it's not even difficult to use), and it suddenly becomes a no-brainer over the unpredictable and restricted ToTH.

    Can skip to the end of the video to see how it plays here:

    I was using Lynx Rush because i figured the small loss of damage was less than the extra 2-3 Multishots i could squeeze out with the focus saved but I'm back to crows now.
    Last edited by Dela2k10; 2013-01-12 at 04:45 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jhazrun View Post
    You know how people talk about how you could just make a piece of rock with a billion health and damage and call it "hard"?

    Ra-den is what you get when a designer thinks that's actually a really good idea.
    i7-3930k @ 4.6 | Sabertooth X79 | 32GB DDR3-1600 | GTX-680 Jetstream SLI | TX950W

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Dela2k10 View Post
    Now consider that I can use that focus on anything I want (off GCD to it's not even difficult to use), and it suddenly becomes a no-brainer over the unpredictable and restricted ToTH.
    Fervor is not off the GCD. However, Fervor is better than using Cobra Shot even if your Cobra Shot is less than 1 GCD to cast despite the damage and SS refresh that Cobra Shot offers.

  13. #13
    lvling my hunter atm ( 88 ) but something is not quite clear from reading different posts.

    - is glaive toss replacing multi shot as AOE when u have already used MS to spread serpent?

    - Is glaive toss used on cooldown in single target ?

    Some guides say use it on cooldown , others have it way at the bottom as priority, i havent played hunter since DS.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Xiphias View Post
    Fervor is not off the GCD. However, Fervor is better than using Cobra Shot even if your Cobra Shot is less than 1 GCD to cast despite the damage and SS refresh that Cobra Shot offers.
    What are you talking about? It is off the GCD.

    Quote Originally Posted by FluFF View Post
    lvling my hunter atm ( 88 ) but something is not quite clear from reading different posts.

    - is glaive toss replacing multi shot as AOE when u have already used MS to spread serpent?

    - Is glaive toss used on cooldown in single target ?

    Some guides say use it on cooldown , others have it way at the bottom as priority, i havent played hunter since DS.
    1. I'm not sure, I just do it on CD when I'm aoeing.
    2. Yes, use it on CD is is more damage than an arcane shot and costs less focus.

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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Xiphias View Post
    Fervor is not off the GCD. However, Fervor is better than using Cobra Shot even if your Cobra Shot is less than 1 GCD to cast despite the damage and SS refresh that Cobra Shot offers.
    It definitely is, watch the video, i always use it just before or just after i fire a global
    Quote Originally Posted by Jhazrun View Post
    You know how people talk about how you could just make a piece of rock with a billion health and damage and call it "hard"?

    Ra-den is what you get when a designer thinks that's actually a really good idea.
    i7-3930k @ 4.6 | Sabertooth X79 | 32GB DDR3-1600 | GTX-680 Jetstream SLI | TX950W

  16. #16
    I think the point about it "not being on the GBC" is the fact that you can't use it when another ability is casting - we need to distinguish "off the GBC" (extra action buttons like on madness, ultraxion, garajal, tank CD's like vamp blood and IBF, selfbuffs like Power Infusion) and "does not trigger the GBC" (things like aspect, fervor, rapid fire etc - basicly, skills that does not trigger a GBC, but are not able to be used DURING a GBC).

    As for TOTH vs Fervor - I think the main reason I prefer TOTH, is the fact that it adds more reliable "burst" than Fervor does, and can be "saved up" better than Fervor. On progress, the raid is oftenly reliant on you actually being able to "do" your job, and while fervor does deliver 50 initial focus, the remaining 50 comes in "slowly", and much less bursty. An example could be Elegon HC sparks - during progress, they'd often only get killed because I could run on fumes from emptying my focus bar and loading arcane shots into them. Triggering TOTH, emptying my arcane shots into the spark, and triggering another TOTH while emptying out my focus. With fervor, I'd be gaining the focus slowly, and would have to weave in cobra shots after my bar has been emptied.
    While mathematically, fervor restores more focus and is thus the higher DPS option, the utility you claim it has, gets outshined by the burst that TOTH provides - atleast in my eyes. Burst is something Surv desperately lacks (compared to BM), and TOTH brings that.
    Not to mention that in AOE, the TOTH multishots has a chance to trigger it again, allowing for extreme damage to go out in a short amount of time (reliant on RNG, of course). With Fervor, you'd get a maximum (1 sec gbc = 5 focus restored+5 from fervor, 150 focus "base", 40 focus cost = 3 multishots before pool is dry, leaving you at 30 focus, gain 30 focus during GBC's = 4 multishots) of 4 multishots in a row, before having to weave arcane's in. With TOTH, you can go as high as (1 sec gbc = 5 focus restored, 100 focus base, 20 focus cost = 5 multishots before pool is dry, leaving you at 0 focus, gain 25 focus during GBC's = 6 multishots).

    On top of that, remember that TOTH is the only "cleave" a hunter has - on 3 targets or more, it's better to dump with multishot than Arcane shot, unless delibretelly single targetting (EG, windblade needs to die on shekzeer).

    So while Fervor is, mathematically, stronger - it just seems less "usefull" than TOTH. Toth provides better burst potential, it provides better AOE potential, and it doesn't require any thought process to use (eg, need to click it when on low focus). And it's passive. It's the same reason people used Lynx rush over Murder of Crows during the initial part of the tier, really - every single reason was true for Lynx vs AMOC, too.
    Last edited by Dracodraco; 2013-01-12 at 05:07 AM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehstool View Post
    What are you talking about? It is off the GCD.
    If that's so, Wowhead needs to be updated, as it shows that Fervor has a 1 second GCD, and a number of the comments say that it is on the GCD as well.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    I think the point about it "not being on the GBC" is the fact that you can't use it when another ability is casting - we need to distinguish "off the GBC" (extra action buttons like on madness, ultraxion, garajal, tank CD's like vamp blood and IBF, selfbuffs like Power Infusion) and "does not trigger the GBC" (things like aspect, fervor, rapid fire etc - basicly, skills that does not trigger a GBC, but are not able to be used DURING a GBC).
    The only time you cant use it is while you're actually casting cobra, you CAN however use it instantly after another shot, it is completely unbound from GBC on both sides of the skill.

    As for the rest, you're definitely right about ToTH providing a greater potential burst pool, but like i said before it is only potential, there can come that point where you desperately need burst AoE (think Ragnaros elementals) and ToTH just won't proc (same way the T12 4piece always let me down) whereas fervor is that guaranteed focus, every time, provided you know it's coming and can save it.

    The other reason i'm fighting it's corner so much is the flexibility is has when not AoEing, since it's significantly stronger on single target in that you arent forced into arcane shot, It certainly makes Crows a hell of a lot easier to use, in that the CDs always line up so essentially you only need 10 focus to use crows instantly.

    Ultimately from a raw focus perspective the 2 talents are similar, and it comes down to playstyle and persona preference (it is another button after all)
    But the flexibility from fervor is what i've become rather attached to.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jhazrun View Post
    You know how people talk about how you could just make a piece of rock with a billion health and damage and call it "hard"?

    Ra-den is what you get when a designer thinks that's actually a really good idea.
    i7-3930k @ 4.6 | Sabertooth X79 | 32GB DDR3-1600 | GTX-680 Jetstream SLI | TX950W

  19. #19
    The Lightbringer Lovestar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dela2k10 View Post
    This is something that i've never understood.

    Fervor's focus generation is nearly identical to ToTH's, is less unpredictable, and is actual focus that can be used on anything (BA/ES/MoC) rather than just arcane and multi. Not only that, but the focus is also granted to your pet which adds a little extra damage there too.
    But ToTH is fun and doesn't require yet another keybind.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Lovestar View Post
    But ToTH is fun and doesn't require yet another keybind.
    The problem with TotH is that it procs at the most inopportune times. And it procs a lot. You can either delay your heavy hitters to use it and do less overall dps, or delay it to run your rotation and lose out on potential dps. DB on the other hand is fire and forget. Fervor is off the GCD, lets me hit really hard when I want to and starving myself of focus to use it is pretty easy.

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