Thread: Mastery > Int

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  1. #1

    [Resto] Mastery > Int?

    Ok so after I saw a thread today about mastery vs int, I did a bit of testing myself, and just wanted to discus the results.
    Previous topic:
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...Mastery-gt-Int

    Previous topic turned into a int vs spirit thread.. so can we keep this mastery vs Int pls




    So these are the results from changing all my pure int and int+mastery gems into pure mastery gems


    Spell - With Int - With mastery ----- difference
    -------------------------------------------------------------
    Rejuv - 18,188 - 18,239 ---- +51
    Wildgrowth - 34,112 - 34,208 ---- +96
    Regrowth - 44,492 - 44,618 ---- +126
    Healing Touch - 86,346 - 86,590 ---- +244

    As you can see, theres not a HUGE difference, but there is a difference... thoughts?


    Int: 19,575
    Mastery: 6104 (22.72%)

    self buffed+HOTW (dont rly like natures vigil)
    Last edited by Deathruler11; 2013-01-08 at 01:14 AM.

  2. #2
    [Edit]Braindwen corrected various errors in this work. Thanks to him for helping me correct my errors.

    Raid buffed, you'd get +5% 6.25% mastery (additive) and 5% 10% more spell power (multiplicative).

    I'll use reasonably representative raid-geared stats for this comparison:
    • 18,000 unbuffed int. So raid buffed, (with food, flask, HotW, MotW, and Leather specialization), that would be 22555 int or 23683 24811 spell power; with a weapon that has 6500 SP (which is 6825 7150 raid buffed), you'd have 30508 31960 Spell power total.
    • 20% unbuffed mastery. So raid buffed, that's 25% mastery.

    What will your spells heal for if you increase either stat by 500? This is just a straight comparison between Int and Mastery (I realize that Mastery is double budgeted for gemming, so the results I get here for Mastery can be doubled where gemming is concerned.)

    For reference, I'll list the coefficients (obtained from wowhead.com) for each spell I'm considering so that others and I can easily confirm the results I get.
    • Rejuvenation = 4234 + [39.2% of SP] per tick
    • Wild Growth = 6930 990 + [9.2% of SP] per tick per person
    • Swiftmend = 13966 + [129% of SP] per cast
    • Regrowth (glyphed) = 2*(10954 + [95.8% of SP]) per cast

    With the stats I've mentioned above (not including the +500 int or mastery), each spell should heal for:
    • Rejuvenation = 16193.1 without harmony, 20241.4 with harmony
    • Wild Growth = 9736.7 without harmony, 12170.9 with harmony
    • Swiftmend = 83829.3 without harmony, 104786.6 with harmony
    • Regrowth (glyphed) = 80361.3 without harmony, 100451.6 with harmony

    Note: +500 Int = 584 raid buffed Int = 613 raid buffed SP
    Note: +500 Mastery = 1.04% mastery

    [edit] Because of corrections made above, this table is currently wrong. The correct table is a few posts down.

    Spell Name Base Heal +500 Int Diff +500 Mst Diff Ratio (Mst/Int) Ratio (Mst*2/Int)
    Rejuvenation 20241.4 20481.7 240.3 20409.8 168.4 0.7 1.4
    Wild Growth 12170.9 12227.3 56.4 12272.1 101.2 1.8 3.6
    Swiftmend 104786.6 106190.4 1403.8 105658.4 871.8 0.6 1.2
    Regrowth (glyph) 100451.6 101626.1 1174.5 101287.4 835.8 0.7 1.4

    The last column is the most important for this discussion. Since Mastery is budgeted twice what Int is for gemming, the ratio of Mastery*2/Int is the "mathy" way of saying what a Mastery gem is worth compared to an Int gem. In this case, Mastery is worth anywhere from 1.2 to 3.6 what Int is worth. In other words, it seems that at raid gear levels Mastery is worth gemming over Int.
    Last edited by Dendrek; 2013-01-08 at 08:21 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hurax View Post
    Jesus Christ? I could not follow his radical left-wing path. No, even if I did believe in a personal god, I would not have the guts, the extreme altruism and radical anti-capitalism necessary to call myself a Christian.
    Quote Originally Posted by ngc2440 View Post
    Hyperbole police! We have been alerted to several reports of some suburbian white guys complaining about racism. Ok I am going to give you a warning. You have 60 days to put on your big boy britches and stop being a whiny kid. Seriously. Time to grow up.

  3. #3
    Again it all depends on raid setup/format (25man or 10man few healers or many healers). Whatever you do if you do 25man with more than 5 healers and have discs or monk in raids whatever you do you rarely stand a chance. We should accept it and just try to be more ready for each fight than other healers so we can have 1-2 sec advantage pre - casting. In order to stand a chance you need to have 4 set bonus a good pc , no lag know the fight and players movement as much as possible (who usually fails) and try to pre-blanket before heavy raid damage (in most of the fights) then assuming your co-players are not good you have a chance to aim for top 3 (between 5 to 6 healers 25man)

  4. #4
    apostoloss, was that in reply to something that was said in this thread?
    Quote Originally Posted by Hurax View Post
    Jesus Christ? I could not follow his radical left-wing path. No, even if I did believe in a personal god, I would not have the guts, the extreme altruism and radical anti-capitalism necessary to call myself a Christian.
    Quote Originally Posted by ngc2440 View Post
    Hyperbole police! We have been alerted to several reports of some suburbian white guys complaining about racism. Ok I am going to give you a warning. You have 60 days to put on your big boy britches and stop being a whiny kid. Seriously. Time to grow up.

  5. #5
    A few issues dend:

    Wild Growth is 990+9.2% SP per tick according to wowhead. Check the buff, not the tooltip thing at the top. Though I do wish WG ticked for 7k every time, that'd be cool.

    raid buff is 10% SP.

    Also, mastery raid buff is 3000 rating, or 6.25% mastery. This isn't really important though since the mastery numbers are just examples there, and your amount for +500 looks right.

    You're using 229% SP for swiftmend.

    When you're calculating the bonus from int, you're just doing 613sp x the spell's coefficient. You're ignoring that those heal amounts listed are buffed by harmony, and so all of the numbers in the int "diff" column should be increased by 25%.

  6. #6
    Thank you Brain. Considering all the numbers I was dealing with, I feared I'd made mistakes. (I didn't use a spreadsheet the first time, and did all the work by hand/calculator — I used a spreadsheet this time to avoid those same errors.) I'm grateful someone actually checked my math. I'll make those corrections (and I'll see if perhaps there's anything we both missed).

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-08 at 06:26 AM ----------

    Thanks to Braindwen for helping me make the necessary corrections to this table.

    Spell Name Base Heal +500 Int Diff +500 Mst Diff Ratio (Mst/Int) Ratio (Mst*2/Int)
    Rejuvenation 21162.6 21480.7 318.1 21337.3 174.6 0.55 1.1
    Wild Growth 4962.1 5036.7 74.7 5003.0 40.9 0.55 1.1
    Swiftmend 69683.6 70730.5 1046.8 70258.6 574.9 0.55 1.1
    Regrowth (glyph) 106524.4 106524.4 1554.8 105835.6 866.1 0.56 1.1

    So although my original conclusion was off numerically, the outcome is essentially the same: 2*Mastery > 1*Int. But only slightly. Regemming for Mastery will be a theoretical increase in throughput, but it's likely you won't actually notice the difference.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-08 at 06:37 AM ----------

    Using the spreadsheet, I tried changing the initial values a few times. Here's a few of the outcomes I'm seeing:

    At 16,000 Int and 2400 Mastery, the ratio of 1000 Mastery to 500 Int = 1.08
    At 22,000 Int and 4800 Mastery, the ratio of 1000 Mastery to 500 Int = 1.29
    At 22,000 Int and 8600 Mastery, the ratio of 1000 Mastery to 500 Int = 1.17
    Last edited by Dendrek; 2013-01-08 at 06:43 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hurax View Post
    Jesus Christ? I could not follow his radical left-wing path. No, even if I did believe in a personal god, I would not have the guts, the extreme altruism and radical anti-capitalism necessary to call myself a Christian.
    Quote Originally Posted by ngc2440 View Post
    Hyperbole police! We have been alerted to several reports of some suburbian white guys complaining about racism. Ok I am going to give you a warning. You have 60 days to put on your big boy britches and stop being a whiny kid. Seriously. Time to grow up.

  7. #7
    (and I'll see if perhaps there's anything we both missed).
    I forgot that int gives crit too . 500 int with mark/heart/leather spec is a bit under .23% crit.
    Obviously wouldn't affect glyphed regrowth, but it would affect the rest.

    Trying it right now, and it seems to put them near-equal for the values you gave and 20% crit base.

    With +3% crit effect meta:

    2.4% in int's favor on WG, 2.3% in int's favor on swiftmend/rejuv,~11% in Mastery's favor on regrowth.
    Last edited by Braindwen; 2013-01-08 at 06:57 AM.

  8. #8
    Without the Crit meta, I'm getting nearly the same results you are (in my case, 2.7% or 2.8% in favor of int for RG/WG/SM and 11.4% in favor of mastery for RG). [Edit] And with the Crit meta, I get the same results as you.
    Last edited by Dendrek; 2013-01-08 at 08:18 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hurax View Post
    Jesus Christ? I could not follow his radical left-wing path. No, even if I did believe in a personal god, I would not have the guts, the extreme altruism and radical anti-capitalism necessary to call myself a Christian.
    Quote Originally Posted by ngc2440 View Post
    Hyperbole police! We have been alerted to several reports of some suburbian white guys complaining about racism. Ok I am going to give you a warning. You have 60 days to put on your big boy britches and stop being a whiny kid. Seriously. Time to grow up.

  9. #9
    So are you saying Int or mastery is better? if mastery is always more than 1 above int, surely its better cause of gems being double the value

    i guess the only draw back to goin mastery over int is ur not gonna get the extra bit of crit that int gives?

  10. #10
    Perhaps its a not direct reply but i keep seeing the discussion about which stat should get priority which i find pointless right now because of the reasons i mentioned above. Sorry if it was not a direct reply or was way too pessimistic but while i love your effort to provide evidence i dont think 2 or 3% more intellect or mastery will improve someone healing. Perhaps what it should be examined is how we can configure our stats to try to compete with the class mechanisms of other classes.
    To give you and example of what i am saying is pre-blanket strategy going to help us against disc's bubble? If so then should people stack spirit and how much ? What is the cost of rejuv and what is the mana regeneration during combat? how much spirit is needed to cover one rejuv being placed and so on.

    I am mentioning this because i havent really seen any proof that rely heavily in one stat (in mop) is helping our output more than another stat ; if you have proof about that i would love to see it.

  11. #11
    @Deathruler11: They (the gems) are essentially equal. At low gear levels, Int wins by a *very small* margin. At higher gear levels, Mastery wins by a *very small margin*. This is in reference to gems. That is to say that 320 Mastery = 160 Int.

    @apostoloss: Dismissing a theorycrafting question as being pointless because we suck right now really makes no sense at all. The question wasn't "what stat will make us better than a Disc priest?" it's "what stat is better?" and it's a perfectly valid question. There's no point in trying to turn a theorycrafting question into a "Druids suck, you might as well reroll" debate. Also, baring any errors in our math, Braindwen and I are in agreement on our results about 2*Mastery ~= 1* Int.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hurax View Post
    Jesus Christ? I could not follow his radical left-wing path. No, even if I did believe in a personal god, I would not have the guts, the extreme altruism and radical anti-capitalism necessary to call myself a Christian.
    Quote Originally Posted by ngc2440 View Post
    Hyperbole police! We have been alerted to several reports of some suburbian white guys complaining about racism. Ok I am going to give you a warning. You have 60 days to put on your big boy britches and stop being a whiny kid. Seriously. Time to grow up.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Braindwen View Post
    I forgot that int gives crit too . 500 int with mark/heart/leather spec is a bit under .23% crit.
    Obviously wouldn't affect glyphed regrowth, but it would affect the rest.

    Trying it right now, and it seems to put them near-equal for the values you gave and 20% crit base.

    With +3% crit effect meta:

    2.4% in int's favor on WG, 2.3% in int's favor on swiftmend/rejuv,~11% in Mastery's favor on regrowth.
    At your convenience, would you mind spelling out the math you used to get these new "% favor int/mast" based on the additional increase of 0.23% crit? I'm guessing you're multiplying the 0.23% crit chance by the extra amount healed from a crit and adding that to the total healed number. Because our hots tick so many times during a raid boss, i think this would be a fairly safe application. (ex, if we only cast a spell 1 time during a boss, and it had an increased 0.23% crit chance, this would for all intents and purposes be neligible.... if we cast it 10,000 times, it is safe to assume it will crit around 23 of those times).

    Also, since all three spells you guys have analyzed give a 1.1 Mast*2/int ratio, is it safe to assume lifebloom will have this same 1.1 ratio? I know these ratios didn't include crit, but since lifebloom does crit, I would assume its ends up being similar to WG/RJ, favoring int by a small (around 2.3%) amount.

    Thanks!!!

  13. #13
    Because of the fact that Int gives crit, the ratio is not 1.1 Mast*2/Int. Instead, it's something like 0.97 Mast*2/Int. What that means is a Mastery gem is worth about 0.97x what an Int gem is worth (for RJ/SM/WG).

    To answer your first question: When factoring in crit for total hps, if you have 20% crit, then that means 20% of the time, your spells will heal for double (if you have the meta crit gem, then 20% of the time your spells will heal for 2.06x the normal amount). The easy way to set it up in a math equation is to say that you always get your normal heal, but 20% of the time you get an extra normal heal. If x = the normal heal amount of a spell, then the average heal when factoring in crit would be: x + .20x = x(1+.20)

    When factoring in the crit meta, the equation is: x(1+.20*1.06).
    When factoring in that extra .23% crit, the equation is: x(1+.2023).
    And when factoring in both, the equation is: x(1+.2023*1.06)

    P.S. The reason the meta gets a *1.06 (even though the meta says a 3% increase) is because it's a 3% increase on a crit heal. Since a crit heal is double a normal heal, you have 1.03*2x=2.06. And yet, in the equation above, since I'm treating crit heals like they're just extra heals, I cut that down to 1.06x.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hurax View Post
    Jesus Christ? I could not follow his radical left-wing path. No, even if I did believe in a personal god, I would not have the guts, the extreme altruism and radical anti-capitalism necessary to call myself a Christian.
    Quote Originally Posted by ngc2440 View Post
    Hyperbole police! We have been alerted to several reports of some suburbian white guys complaining about racism. Ok I am going to give you a warning. You have 60 days to put on your big boy britches and stop being a whiny kid. Seriously. Time to grow up.

  14. #14
    Sure. I did just use the expected heal values over multiple casts. It's up to you whether you really value crit that highly, I do admit it has reliability issues, albeit less so for druids since our heals are most HoTs, and so have multiple chances to crit. It's less of an all or nothing stat than it is for other healers.

    Heals should crit for 206% (3% increased effect from meta, so heal *2*1.03)

    With 20% crit:
    80% of the time, heals do normal (100%) healing.
    20% of the time, heals do crit (206%) healing.

    so expected heal per cast would be .8*1+.2*2.06=1.212=121.2% normal healing.

    Bump to 20.23% crit, do the same thing:

    Expected heal per cast would be .7977*1+.2023*2.06=1.21444=121.44% normal healing.

    1.21444/1.212=1.00201=.201% increased healing from that .23% crit.

    Change those "% normal healing" to actual heal values with the given SP values, and you get the new heal with +500 int.

    Didn't include living seed since some don't proc it, and those that do (regrowth, swiftmend) either don't benefit from more crit or often aren't thrown on tanks. That could up the value of crit for swiftmend a little, though.

    Finally, keep in mind all values here are based on those example SP/Int/Crit/Mastery values given above. They aren't exactly accurate for your stats. More int/SP/Crit would bias it in favor of mastery, and more mastery would bias it in favor of int. Also keep in mind that this uses HotW, giving you 6% bonus int, biasing it in favor of int.

    (and of course, if you're speccing HotW, odds are you might want the on-use. The on-use of HotW scales VERY well with int and not at all with mastery. Kind of irrelevant for actual "healing", but relevant for that setup).

  15. #15
    Thx for the really food feedback been nice to read.

    I agree that it doesnt really matter that much about what kinda gems u use.. int or mastery.. the difference is really small u wont really notice the difference. I like wot apostoloss said about not the stats.. but how to try compete vs other healers.

    From what ive found this week, going down to the 3k haste cap, and using tree form, natures vigil... sure my heals are maybe stronger, and i have more burst, but if i dont perform well in the "burst" phases with my tranq, treeform, and natures vigil.... overall im gonna do bad.

    Previous weeks ive been using SoTF with the 5.7k ish haste cap for extra tick.. and i found my healing to actually be a lot more competitive... maybe cause of faster rejuv ticks, faster WG ticks etc... So next reset i think im going to go for the 6.6k WG cap, and switch between treeform and SoTF for diff fights, so i got the extra WG tick regardless, and see how i go

  16. #16
    Well dont forget though that if you go for the 6.6k haste so you can switch between tree and sotf you will probably lose from healing output (spellpower or mastery) unless you can put down your spirit so low that you can compensate with that. Thats why i mentioned earlier about it depends on the raid format etc..how the initial theory is behaving.

    I did't want to ditch anyone theories since i like reading theorycraft and i value people who bother testing stuff, just want us to finally try to find optimum builds that will make rdruids even slightly more competitive .

    I will never say reroll to another class since i love competition. One question i have about other stats is if it worth to increase your crit % taking sotf talent lowering your mastery in favour of intellect/crit.
    The reason i am saying that is because of the crit factor affecting the extra ticks we get at wild growth through sotf.

    Also we need to be aware the high % uptime of windsong proccing mastery&crit and how that is affecting what to stack thats why i am kinda sceptical about the debates about int>mastery haste>spirit haste>mastery etc..

  17. #17
    Fair enough. To address your specific concerns:

    1. Is Crit > Mastery for SotF?

    Modeling crit and mastery as throughput stats can be done independent of one's haste because both increase total healing done by their specific percents. If a spell heals for 100k and you have 20% mastery, then your mastery will make that heal 120k. Alternatively, if a spell heals for 100k and you have 20% crit, then 20% of the time that heal will be 200k (while the remaining 80% will still be 100k). That means 80% of your heals are 100k and 20% are 200k = .80*100+.20*200; this averages out to 120k.

    All SotF does is increase the total healing done of WG. So the question of whether to take Mastery or Crit comes down to which will give you the greatest percent increase. Unfortunately for Crit, the conversion ratio (600 crit = 1%) is much worse than for Mastery (480 mastery = 1%). This is further compounded by the fact that you already start off with a lot of Crit through Intellect. Even with its worse conversion ratio, there is a point at which Crit becomes better than Mastery, but with current gear we aren't at that point yet. Mastery will consistently be better than Crit *for now*. I'll look into finding when the priorities switch at some later time.

    2. How does Windsong affect stat priorities?

    That's a good question. Realistically, this question only applies to lower geared players. I'm not being elitist here at all when I say this, but if a player is working on progression content and/or is very well geared, there's no excuse at all not to have Jade Spirit. And since we're *most likely* only referencing lower geared players, or those who aren't concerned with maximizing their potential, I don't think a lot of theorycrafting is necessary to answer this question. But we can consider some general rules:

    Windsong should have an equal chance of being haste/crit/mastery. The fact that it's inconsistent means we can't really hope to balance stats around it. For example, we can't say "1/3 of the time that it procs I will get haste, so which haste cap should I shoot for knowing I'll have that excess haste?" If you were to adjust your haste for that variable outcome, you'd likely have a lot of wasted stats more than 2/3s of the time (in fact, assuming a 40% uptime on Windsong, you'd likely be without the haste proc ~85% of the time). It wouldn't make sense to adjust your stats in order to maximize your potential for ~15% of the fight. Additionally, although a Mastery proc could potentially give you so much Mastery that Crit becomes the better stat to stack, it's (again) only going to be an issue for about ~15% of the fight and it wouldn't make sense to stack Crit for that rare circumstance.
    Last edited by Dendrek; 2013-01-09 at 04:01 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hurax View Post
    Jesus Christ? I could not follow his radical left-wing path. No, even if I did believe in a personal god, I would not have the guts, the extreme altruism and radical anti-capitalism necessary to call myself a Christian.
    Quote Originally Posted by ngc2440 View Post
    Hyperbole police! We have been alerted to several reports of some suburbian white guys complaining about racism. Ok I am going to give you a warning. You have 60 days to put on your big boy britches and stop being a whiny kid. Seriously. Time to grow up.

  18. #18
    To add to this i will also refer to something i have mentioned in other topic concerning mastery you dont need to reach an exact % e.g. 20% but 19,80% since the mastery raid buff is 3000 which is adding 6,25% (3000/480 which is the each 1% -480 points- ) mastery to your existing mastery % . I havent seen anyone else mentioning that and when i mentioned it in other forums everyone start ditching me. Concerning the jade spirit i would't be so quick to say its for low gear players since the proc is decent .
    Sure jade spirit proc seems alot better and does proc intellect but having crit & mastery & haste up at same time is 3,1% increase in healing from mastery which scales quite good with the 1650 proc of jade spirit.

    I was checking logs around and i think jade spirit right now seems better because the uptime of it can reach from 30% to 50% (in some logs i saw) in comparison with windsong which while it procs 3 different things max proc time i have seen is 35% uptime but can also vary from 12% uptime .

    In conclusion you are correct to say that jade spirit is much better for output due to the uptime time but windsong is a valid choice if you have lower gear and a heavy spirit build since it procs mastery/crit/haste which might be stats you have in lower priority.

    By this it might be tempting to try to follow what i said earlier about mastery if you are in a raid without the mastery buff available (chance is low for that but you never know) since with the proc you will gain more .
    By the way thanks dendrek for the effort to reply to the questions. In my case because i have lfr items for the 4set bonus i had chosen to keep windsong (might change it tonight) to balance my other stats around going for high mastery build + 5731 haste cap , sotf and as low spirit as possible since we heal with too many healers usually and i can manage my mana .

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by apostoloss View Post
    Well dont forget though that if you go for the 6.6k haste so you can switch between tree and sotf you will probably lose from healing output (spellpower or mastery) unless you can put down your spirit so low that you can compensate with that. Thats why i mentioned earlier about it depends on the raid format etc..how the initial theory is behaving.

    I did't want to ditch anyone theories since i like reading theorycraft and i value people who bother testing stuff, just want us to finally try to find optimum builds that will make rdruids even slightly more competitive .

    I will never say reroll to another class since i love competition. One question i have about other stats is if it worth to increase your crit % taking sotf talent lowering your mastery in favour of intellect/crit.
    The reason i am saying that is because of the crit factor affecting the extra ticks we get at wild growth through sotf.

    Also we need to be aware the high % uptime of windsong proccing mastery&crit and how that is affecting what to stack thats why i am kinda sceptical about the debates about int>mastery haste>spirit haste>mastery etc..
    ye im well aware... I will drop down to the 5.7k haste cap for SoTF soon, but we're progressing on imperial atm and i kinda have to use tree form there, its hte only way i can keep the tank alive on the echo by spamin instant regrowths.

    Did a few tests in LFR and managed to do 136k on tsulong which just felt better overall than the previous 3k haste cap and tree form

  20. #20
    Blademaster Juvenate's Avatar
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    There is some good info found on Elitist Jerks regarding Stats.

    It is my impression that due to Mark of the Wild, Leather Specialization, and Heart of the Wild (if talented) that Intellect scales better than Mastery in outright throughput gains.

    Edit: Hamlet from EJ just tweeted me a great link that you may want to check out located here.
    Last edited by Juvenate; 2013-01-09 at 07:10 PM.
    I blog about Resto Druid stuff at WTS Heals.

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