Just curious what everyone on here thinks.
Just curious what everyone on here thinks.
Whichever size would get the most people to shut up complaining about sizes.
Oh hey look! another identical thread
8, because those last two people are always missing when raid time comes...
Voted 10 and less than that would be even better.
For the current wow situation, seriously the last thing needed is quarells about sizes.
There has to be a solution out of this mess, and there has to be one fast. Raiding population is being reduced with every passing day.
Having those things in mind, obviously keeping the dual format is not viable.
Incentivise 25 and people will start doing it again, but many will rage "for being forced to raid 25" or that "10 man has turned again into a joke".
Leave things as they are, and people will keep doing 10, but raiding as an hole will continue to shrink, both 10s and 25s.
So Blizzard should start looking towards the direction of a single size solution.
Of all the options available, chosing 10 or 25 would not be wise, cause the people that support the one or the other, will consider it as "victiory" or defeat.
Chosing a number higher than 25 is a bit utopic. 25s have problems to survive, 30-35-40 would make things even worse.
So that leaves us with two real options, provided that we re talking about groups of 5, thus making the group 3X5 or 4X5.
Chosing amogst those 2, you gain mainly benefits.
1) There is no winner in the debate 10vs25, that is going on since the end of wrath. There is a new size.
2) Fresh, new begining, that will tempt people burned or people that went afk, to try this "new size".
3) Level playing field. One race, one winner, no questions about who had it easier depending on the size, no theorycrafting for encounter's difficulty, balance etc amongst the two differet sizes we have.
4) Amplification of benefits for both sizes, reduction of negatives. 15 or 20 are easier to organize, still feel epic, they re offering space for full class representation, they are easy to cover full buffs available.
5) Less time from Blizzard for balancing, more time to design quality content.
6) Raiding instances designed with a given size in mind, that leads to a better visual experience and immersion. Remember how good karazhan was for 10, or SSC for 25 only.
7) Better guild stability=better experience for the members aka customers. 10 is an easy to assemble number. Too easy actually. That leads to dissrespect towards it, even by their own creators. Minimum time invested into formation=minimum commitment for many officers to keep pushing if something goes wrong. Again, without the huge burden of keeping such a large roster that will allow 25s, or such a big bench, meaning amount of people that have to "sit out" cause one given night event is oversigned.
The draw backs?
1) The adjustement period. Guilds need to recruit (in case of single 10),
2) Or break existing team in two (if 25),
3) Or let some people go (if 25) to be absorbed by those recruiting
4) Or risking fanatic ragers to go berserk.
Those things are negligible.
We have smt freshj to make protesting stop
We would have smt that will bring people back into game
I voted 15, and i am sure, even with the slow start, that it will be no1 again, like in previous polls, before 100 people vote on this poll!
Last edited by Archidamos; 2013-01-08 at 01:19 AM.
One. No more no less
People do not fit in blocks. The other poll on the matter, putting 4 statements and asking from people to describe the one they fit in ignore one thing:
MANY don't like this thing being recycled for years.
They had it and they want something fresh, a new begining.
Not all are
-Raiding 10 but would prefer to be in 25
-Raiding 25 but would prefer to be in 10
-Raid 10 or 25 and they re happy about it.
Single size is the answer and 15 people seems a very good deal to the eyes of many, as a major candidate as the size of choice.
It doesn't have to happen obviously, but it is a fact now, and it cannot be ignored.
Happy new year to all!
I always felt 13-15 would be the ideal size. Having only one number raid comps would be interesting. It's hard enough to fill up a 10man nowadays, at least for some people.
In an ideal fantasy world where people didn't already have established raid and a history, I'd prefer ~15 and I'd prefer one universal size so there is no X s Y debate.
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On the one hand, I really like the atmosphere in 10 man raids. In smaller raid groups, I enjoy having my best friends around me. In my experience, 25 man raids where much more "anonymous". However, the bigger the raid, the more epic the feeling.
On the other hand, we usually run into setup problems in our 10 man raid. When I hear of guilds using 2 "normal" healers and two smite priests for some encounters, I feel a bit neglected in terms of balancing around player skill and not raid comp. The consolidation of raid buffs was a huge step in the right direction, though.
If Blizzard could fix this, 10 man would be my preferred raid size.
Classes look alike enough as it is, in their respectfull roles.
Interupts for all
Stuns for all
CC for most
Buffs provided by multiple classes.
Still classes are left with a few individualities that can make a difference in certain encounter mechanics.
I dont want more of that.
People took the "bring the player not the class" modo and applied it to 10 man raids while it was intended for the 25 ppl raid environment during Sunwell and it was talking against the "class stacking" not the "class missing".
It wasnt created to ask "make em all the same" so i dont miss the shaman or the druid or the rogue that cant be fit in my setup.
10 man size has pros and cons. By trying to adress its cons, which is amongst other things the very small number of class/specs represented, the game will become more shallow and dull.
It will end up to become
The ranged dps
The melee dps
Just as we have today the buff called "stats", "stamina" instead of their historicall names aka "Blessing of Kings" and "Power word Fortitute".
A bunch of numbers this game ended up to be and what we re asking is to try and make it even more like this.
Last edited by Archidamos; 2013-01-09 at 01:12 PM.
10 man for me so easy to know everyone and make new freinds etc
I personally would like to see 15m raids in the raiding environment.
Thanks for making this poll.
I voted 25. The main reason I want a bigger raid size than 10/15/20s is to get rid of class homogenization as Archidamos stated. Shaman only buffs were fine with 40 player raids for example, because you had so many players. In 25s it was still ok, even though it made recruitment harder, and in 10s impossible to balance. So they had to consolidate so much of the uniqueness of classes for pvp balance and 10 man balance that to me they lost some truly great RPG value. With the advent of 10 mans it seems like everyone has to do the same dps, and everyone has to be able to bring overlapping utility.
Scalable raid, where players get a suitable buff depending on role, allowing for raids from through to 25/40 players, albeit with certain minimum requirements. Means you don't have to worry about no-shows. Mans you can raid with who is on your friensd list and noone else. Means guilds don't have to worry so much about recruiting or raid optimization.
Smaller size allow for quick set up and less emphasis on logistics while also allowing me to forget about needing to raid with anyone outside my friends list.
Larger size allows for a more communal atmosphere with a wider variety of skill levels and a more flexible and varied raid roster.
One size means no XvY debate and also allows for the raid to be designed and scaled around one raid size.
Personally? 18 man - 3x6 man parties with 2 tanks, 1 spare, 3 healers and 12 DPS, 3 melee and 9 ranged.
Last edited by Talen; 2013-01-09 at 07:23 PM.
IF it was possible to create an encounter that ignores
1) Mechanics and how they affect a group
2) Basic principles of setup, including tanks and mainly healers but also the blend between melee and ranged dps
3) The human nature looking for sweetspots, meaning the ideal number of people with the ideal setup, to beat an encounter the fastest and easiest way, meaning that this "dynamic" raid model, wont help guilds to "fit everybody in" and all to be happy, but on the contrary to exclude as many as required to beat a given encounter in the most efficient way, till content is on farm status.
So no, it is rather naive to call this ideal.
A group of 18 would be in that case ideal.
But there is the ui change that it is required, and the backward combatibility that would make things a bit complicated, especially in PvP.
If you ask me? It can certainly be bypassed, and it worths every penny spented, but it seems that we re a minority on this one, both regarding 6 people dungeons but also regarding 18 (or 12/24) people raids.
People don't like this number it seems, and there is no point trying to talk with logical arguments in favor of something that very few like.
That is why i voted 15 vs 20, although i prefer 20. I believe that 15 people has a very strong drive amongst the community, and as such it has a lot of potential to actually see the live servers, unlike other sizes that have been suggested.
That is why i am standing fully behind that size.
Not because it is the optimum for me (it is better than 10 and better than 30+), but because i really, really want this raiding model to stop existing.
Providing links of two threads i created, in the long forgotten past on those matters.
That is talking about the benefits of 6 man dungeon group that would scale into a dual 12-24 raiding model plus the benefits of 12-24 vs 10-25
And a poll with the option for 18 people raids included in the options
You will notice that at the existance of many options, people that would otherwise vote 10 or 25 go for those other options. Typical examble in this poll we have is the people voting for 40 ppl raids, and they would certainly vote for 25 if there wasnt the option 40.
Same was in the other poll, that many voted 12 instead of 10.
15 people raids on the contrary is a choice that many people are absolute about.
It gets a solid 40% plus in every poll on the matter in this site for over a year (first one i ve seen was around september 2011), no matter how many choices are offered.
15 if unique raid format.