View Poll Results: Which size?

Voters
294. You may not vote on this poll
  • 10

    61 20.75%
  • 15

    122 41.50%
  • 20

    20 6.80%
  • 25

    64 21.77%
  • 30

    1 0.34%
  • 35

    3 1.02%
  • 40

    23 7.82%
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  1. #41
    High Overlord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    You went from a simplistic description on how they can implement a mechanic switch based on raid size to "you don't raid, hur, hur, hur" faster than most people I know.
    An If-Then statement doesn't even come close to "a simplistic description on how they can implement a mechanic switch based on raid size". You've basically said "Mount Everest is easy to climb, you just put one foot in front of the other until you reach the top!"

    And that's my point -- you're completely understating the level of complexity involved in tailoring raids to fit any size.

  2. #42
    10 as a minimum, bosses to scale to the amount of people in the room.
    1) Load the amount of weight I would deadlift onto the bench
    2) Unrack
    3) Crank out 15 reps
    4) Be ashamed of constantly skipping leg day

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Feasibility has little to do with idealism.
    Oh then I would say a size that will fit my needs at every time.

    Ideal for WoW not ideal for only you.
    Last edited by Gilian; 2013-01-11 at 12:42 PM.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by konway View Post
    An If-Then statement doesn't even come close to "a simplistic description on how they can implement a mechanic switch based on raid size". You've basically said "Mount Everest is easy to climb, you just put one foot in front of the other until you reach the top!"

    And that's my point -- you're completely understating the level of complexity involved in tailoring raids to fit any size.
    "If raid is one size do this mechanic else do that mechanic." is not hard to program. The difficulty is in designing and balancing everything else.

    Boiled down to a simple level, they already do just that..."if Raid toggle is 10, set raid this way else set raid for 25".

    Now there are other issues that would need to be considered.....class mix, raid mechanics, environment design and so on. Certain mechanics may work with one size but not others. A switch mechanic may be useful to turn elements on and off. A raid buff mechanic would be simplistic abut posisbly prone to abuse. The use of NPCs as alternative troops could limit the need to implement alternate mechanics but they have their own issues.

    So, understate the complexity involved? Probably.....but then I wasn't giving a lecture or dissertation on game design and balance but a simple example of a programming mechanic that is often used to compare variious states and decide between them.

    EJL

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by konway View Post
    Have you ever, ya know... raided? Just wondering, because it sounds like you haven't. It's not possible to scale mechanics dynamically for all raid sizes from 0-100.

    For example: With 10 people in the raid, 2 get mind controlled for 15 seconds each minute.
    With 9 people in the raid, how many get mind controlled? 1.8? How do you mind control 80% of a player? Or do you just mind control 1 instead of 2, making that mechanic unfairly easy for a 9 man raid?

    Even with infinite time and money that feature would never be implemented.
    For once I agree with EJL. He's usually wrong on everything he says - but this a good idea.

    Scalable raids. You wouldn't do it from 0-100. But even 10-30 would be useful. How do you mind control 80% of a player? Have an 80% chance for an extra MC. 80% chance for an extra Loot Item, ect.

    Would this feature be abused? Ofc, anything Blizzard does get's abused.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Tipton View Post
    For once I agree with EJL. He's usually wrong on everything he says - but this a good idea.

    Scalable raids. You wouldn't do it from 0-100. But even 10-30 would be useful. How do you mind control 80% of a player? Have an 80% chance for an extra MC. 80% chance for an extra Loot Item, ect.

    Would this feature be abused? Ofc, anything Blizzard does get's abused.
    So you think that RnG in mechanics is feasible in raids?
    I tend to believe that RnG in raids can make em fascinating, but it can definately cripple a "perfect try" and that can be very frustrating during progress.

    Having majordomo for instance spawn 1 orb per 5 people resulted into 2 for 10 and 5 for 25.
    Lets not discuss how infinately harder it was for 25 to take 5 orbs spawning in random places with the same amount of space available and 25 people having to coordinate and spread and tank the damage, with a crazy cat jumbing all around leaving huge fire circles.

    Lets asume instead that you have 21 people available for the encounter, and the bloody 5th orb spawns.
    Deal with it during progress without the nerf.
    Orbs were a mechanic appearing only once during the encounter, and it was the decisive moment to determine a kill or a wipe.
    So with 21 people you would have 80% chances the encounter to be easier than with 20 people.
    And 20% chances the encounter to be MUCH harder than with 20 ppl!

    So basically it would turn the encounter into a gambling bet, and balance would be out of the window.

    I am surprised you have chosen THIS to agree with EJL, it is really one of the most impossible things to happen in a game that wants to maintain some form of competitive players in it.

  7. #47
    Hum, domo's orb was hard ?
    Realy ?

    You could have mages IB and pal buble soak all the orb at onces.
    Boulé, healing druid, EU-Arak-arahm
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyubey
    So if you ever feel like dying for the sake of the universe, please call me anytime.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Bouletos View Post
    Hum, domo's orb was hard ?
    Realy ?

    You could have mages IB and pal buble soak all the orb at onces.
    You can understand i hope that this was used as an examble, and in order to discuss Tiptons suggestion about isnerting RnG for incomplete groups.
    You can understand also that i talked about relevant difficulty between 10 and 25 on this encounter without commenting the absolute difficulty of the encounter vs other ones in Firelands with Ragnaros (ofc) or Baleroc even coming in mind.

    Don't try to take it out of context plz...There ill admit it, you re good player, can we talk on the subject now?

  9. #49
    From the perspective of a 10man Raid 13man would be great, because having to recruit 5 more people (50% of your existing raid) could be difficult. 13man would also make it possible for most 25man Raids to directly make 2 13man Raids... but maybe not every 25man raid wants to split into two raids, so having to dismiss 50% of the people would also be unfair. So 15man would be okay!

    It would also lead to a better balance between Tanks, Melees, Ranged and Healer.
    In 10man you currently have imo too many Healer and Tanks. 2 Tanks, 3 Healer, 2 Melees and 3 Ranged is a common setup. 50% of the raid are Healer and Tanks.
    25man raids usually have 2 Tanks, 5 Healer, 7-8 Melees and 10-11 Ranged. Only 28% of the raid are Healer and Tanks. Especially the tanknumber is really low.

    In 15man raids would lead to 2 Tanks, 4 Healer, 3-4 Melees and 5-6 Ranged which would be much more healthier for most raids.

    Switching from 40man to 25man wasnt a problem either, so i really hope this is on blizzards agenda for the next xpac!

  10. #50
    I would prefer either 15 or 20 sized raid. 10 man feels abit to small.
    25 man can at times feel like to many in one place, but at the same time it feels more epic atleast it did for me when i raided 25 man in cata.

    I would really like Blizzard to change this for the next expansion, so raiding would be 1 size only. I prefer 15 or 20, but even going back to 25 sized raid as the optimal or only solution is fine by me. Right now it feels weird that if you raid in a 10 man guild you can't bring every class at once when you raid.
    I also think it would be easier for pugs to happen, atleast if it was 15. Whenever i see someone trying to get a pug going they ALLWAYS need tanks and/or healers, rarely dps and if so range dps (no im not melee dps, im playing resto/ele shaman but i still care about melee )

  11. #51
    I liked raiding on swtor in a 16m guild
    "Prepare for the unknown by studying how others in the past have coped with the unforeseeable and the unpredictable."
    "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking."

    General George S Patton

  12. #52
    Pit Lord
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    1 tank
    2 heal
    4 DPS

    total 7 (maybe 8, another DPS)

    i like to have small raids with good players only as you easily notice when someone sucks (7 really good people in a 25man raid in TBC, stuck on Illidan for 4 months watching retarded tanks unable to kite the flames)
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  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    You make some good points about 6-12-24 groups. I don't think it is worth it though.

    It is not that simple like:
    1. make a 12 man group
    2. raid
    3. make another 12 man group
    4. raid
    5. combine groups to create a 24 man group
    Well, obviously the setup for a larger raid will have a smaller % of tanks vs the other roles, but still, the problem with upsizing in TBC was enormous, while the problem of downsizing in Wrath, was about usually leaving people out, complaining.
    A dual size where the small is excactly half the size of the big rather than this odd 10/25 would have been a lot more functional, if nothing else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    Every guild is different. Some might miss sign ups for raids some might have to rotate players because they got plenty of sign ups.
    Yep, that goes for 10 guilds but mainly for 25 guilds.
    Non top 25s had besides the problem of big skill variance, the problem of attendance to solve too.
    Usually that was ending up to huge rosters, or alternatively pug 2-3 people in the nights that not enough were on line.
    10 man are rather unforgiving to people skiping raids, and tend to be able to maintain raids with a very small roster, even 11-12 people.
    Still there are guilds that even for 10 they need a relatively big pool of players to maintain the raiding activity.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    I think changing back to one raidsize is the best thing to do. It might be a shock to the players but it would solve so many problems. It looks like 15 man is ideal.
    And as much as I would like to see TBC style of having different raids for different sizes (Karazhan/BT, ZA/SSC) I think it would still create problems we don't need.
    I tend to agree. Lots of time has passed since i wrote this one, and did it, to offer a suggestion for a more functional dual size model, since it was obvious that Blizzard was heading to MoP with dual size in mind.
    What i didnt take under consideration was that people didnt like the idea neither of 12 people groups, nor 24. To go for something that people like is more importand than going for something that is functional and better of what there is available.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    I think Blizzard knows perfectly well that 15 man would be ideal but it really depends on what they want and need. Do they want to go on for many more expansions? So, is it worth it to change sizes again? Maybe they don't want to do it because this is a very bad time to bring players in a shock and have people complain and quit. We are talking about millions of dollars here. For us it is easy but for them this is one very though decision much thougher I think than when they removed 40 man and went for 25 man.
    Therefor maybe a solution of 6-12-24 man sized groups is easier on players to implement. Having 6 and 12 sized groups or 5 and 15 sized groups wouldn't really make a difference though. Both options would mean 25 man guilds have to drop 10+ players so basically split up in to two groups.
    And we come into the speculation area.
    What Blizzard thinks is unknown, though there are statements about 15 being perfect size to go for.
    Reason dictates that if they have long term plans about this game, they do have to change the raiding model.
    It was a system that failed delivering in all its aspects since:

    1) It caused the raiding population to get reduced rather than increased as intented.
    2) It caused quarrels amongst the people that raid, quarrels that are still very alive even now, 2,5 years after those changes took place. Just take a look at the threads about "world first". It was a joke really.
    3) It increased the costs but reduced the income.
    4) Made the raids look more like your daily grind, than something exceptional or extraodinary, through the implementation of LFR. A new "raiding model" that came to patch the problems that Cataclysmic dual size system has caused.
    5) Failed to deliver true choice for all. One size is superior choice than the other for reasons that have little to do with actual preference.

    For those reasons, and many more, current model should stay untouched, ONLY if wow is to get milked for this Xpac and then abandoned, not to disturb the remaining customers, but really, really has to change, if WoW is for Blizzard a long term investement still.
    Single size is very reasonable way around the mess that a badly implemented dual system caused.
    15 is very popular amongst the playerbase and offers a potentially optimum setup, to appear as a major candidate, in the case that Blizzard has long term plans for the game in general, and raiding out of LFR in particular.
    Last edited by Archidamos; 2013-01-14 at 02:32 AM.

  14. #54
    Mechagnome
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    Quote Originally Posted by traen View Post
    FLEXIBLE raid size for normal mode bosses.
    With Boss damage and HP adjusted according to the amount of players in raid.

    So if just 8 players showed up, you would still be able to go and raid, and if out of all sudden all your 13 players decided to raid today, you would not have to bench 3 of them.

    Perfect solution for all casual guilds.

    Heroic mode should stick to 25ppl raid size to avoid balance issues.
    Better yet, force heroic mode to be 25 people only. This would solve so many issues.

    Normal mode (no one cares so an ideal amount of people would be less of a problem. Optimise it for 10/25 and scale everything based on that (so if you have 11, either your dps work slightly harder and you make the extra person a healer etc) and once you get past a threshold (18?) it scales up to 25 so you bring an extra tank.

    Basically 7 is min. So 7-17 scales to 10 18-33 scales to 25 (and maybe a 33-40 scale which scales up to 40). All scaling is done to damage output and health (ie, healers and dps outside of those changes).

    Would it work though? I doubt it but sounds cool in theory.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Archidamos View Post
    I voted 15, and i am sure, even with the slow start, that it will be no1 again, like in previous polls, before 100 people vote on this poll!
    Quoting myself from post no 6 when i joined the discussion.
    By that point there where around 40 total voters and 10/25 started with a headstart.
    They got so many votes cause on this poll they go hand in hand, and people let the "old good 10vs25" to blurr their judgement, and vote for their favorite amonst the 2 so "it wont lose".
    Still, 15 has a crystal clear preference, for one more time, being no 1. It is at least the 6th poll on the matter than the roughly the same picture, with the same order happen!
    I must say that where ever i expressed the 15 people raids idea in game, i got only positive feedback from fellow players.

    I wonder if we will get to see things going to that direction finally, for the only real fresh start in raids there can be. A change in the model while keeping 10/25 in game will only bring some more "10vs25 reloaded".
    We dont need that, i certainly dont need that. Had an overdose of it for an expansion and a half...Enough!

  16. #56
    The Lightbringer shise's Avatar
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    25 and 40 should be.

  17. #57
    Dreadlord
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    10 doens't feel raidish more like a 5 man dungoen.

  18. #58
    Elemental Lord Arbs's Avatar
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    25 man, its the only way to go, But 40 man is great too.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Belize View Post
    8, because those last two people are always missing when raid time comes...
    I honestly vote for this one. After weeks of ALMOST having enough people this would be amazing!

  20. #60
    A single raid size of 15, so we get more of an epic feel like 25, but without so much of the headaches of gathering 25 fellows.

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