1. #1

    Question [Need Advice] Underperforming Rogue, help with feedback on 10N Elegon

    Hi all,

    My guild is getting off to a rough start with MoP and we're only now trying out normal Elegon. (I know we're a bit behind the curve, but it took us a long time to get people back and we lost several at the end of Cata.)

    The problem now I think is DPS, and we have one Rogue that I believe needs some help, and I don't know what advice to give, because I have no knowledge of Rogues. According to Raidbots and World of Logs, Combat Rogues are about on the level with Frost DKs, so I expect him to be much higher than he is.

    Here's the WoL from our attempt #9, where we ran into the enrage timer.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/f...?s=5125&e=5702

    Armory:

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...barella/simple

    Before the end of the night his DPS came up a bit when we talked about the encounter, I figured out that he had been clearing his stacks more often than he needed to during the Draw Power portion, but still his numbers are not what I would expect from his gear, and I don't know how to help.

    Any advice will be appreciated, thanks!

  2. #2
    I've never learned to read logs but it looks like he used Cloak of Shadows once and never used fient. You should be getting two protectors before the first transition. Let him know he can Feint the first protector explosion then cloak of shadows the next protector explosion which will allow him to stay on boss till the orbs come out (at which time he should clear stacks before they start dying as his stacks will be about 20+). Other than that I just auto attack boss/pool energy for orbs and clear stacks after every orb to help healers.

  3. #3
    Scarab Lord Garnier Fructis's Avatar
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    Looks like he's not using shadow blades with adrenaline rush, they're on the same cooldown but he had different uptimes for those. He also had a 49% uptime on Slice and Dice. That's probably the biggest problem right there.

    Also, she's not using glyph of adrenaline rush.
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  4. #4
    Hello there matey. I'm generally more adept as an Assassination Rogue and I can really advocate going Assassination for this fight seeing as your Deadly Poisons do monstrous amounts af damage. Aside from that I think the primary problem he has is keeping his buffs/debuffs up.

    The log you linked shows him having a 49.7 % uptime on Slice and Dice.
    This needs to be as close to a 100% as possible. Dropping Slice and Dice as a Rogue is absolutely destructive to your DPS.
    Aside from that he has a 3.1 % uptime on the Revealing Strike ability.

    This also can be a very big loss to DPS seeing as it increases the effectiveness of offensive finishing moves on the target and it gives him a 20% chance to proc an extra combopoint on his target with Sinister Strike.

    It's easy to forget these things especially if you're learning or not used to DPSing as a certan class/spec.

    The idea is as follows for him.

    Open up from stealth with an Ambush > Apply Slice and Dice > Use Revealing Strike to put up the buff whenever you will use Eviscerate, Rupture or Sinister Strike > Sinister Strike until 5 Combo Points > Apply Rupture.
    After this you will want to refresh Slice and Dice if it has under 2 seconds left (spend any Combo Points you have on this) if Slice and Dice is good on time you check Rupture (refresh under 2 seconds) if Rupture is good on time you Eviscerate with 5 Combo Points.

    Remember Slice and Dice and NEVER EVER let it drop and remember Revealing Strike.

    If I made an error in this and there are more experienced Combat Rogues that have additions or corrections please be free to do so.

    I hope this helps.

    Hugz

  5. #5
    Hi there,
    As other posters have already pointed out, his SnD uptime is way to low, he only used two revealing strike during the entire fight(0.2% uptime, should atleast be over 80%), he should be macroing shadow blades with adrenaline rush, no prepotting what I can see, and finaly he only used 12 eviscerates and 0 ruptures during the entire 9m fight(!).

    That is not a gear issue or even lacking the basic knowledge of the rotation, are you sure he wasn't just being afk the entire fight?

  6. #6
    I know he wasn't AFK, but I have a feeling he doesn't keep up with current Roguetheory, so maybe it *is* just a misunderstanding of the proper rotation and/or what abilities do what. Our guild leader told him to play the Rogue and he's not that familiar with it, but neither am I so I thought I would ask here.

    I think this has been pretty helpful so far. I'm going to see to it that he gets WeakAuras installed and help him set up notifications to keep up buffs he is missing, and I'm going to distill this feedback and send it to him.

    Is there a spellflash-like addon for Combat Rogues that is recommended? I think that would really help him learn the proper rotation, since he might not know what buttons to hit when, and just following something like that for a few weeks would get him in the habit of it. That would probably up his DPS in the meantime.

    I can try to have him go Assassination but he would be even less familiar with that.

    Thanks!
    Last edited by Valyk; 2013-01-08 at 06:50 PM.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Valyk View Post
    I know he wasn't AFK, but I have a feeling he doesn't keep up with current Roguetheory, so maybe it *is* just a misunderstanding of the proper rotation and/or what abilities do what. Our guild leader told him to play the Rogue and he's not that familiar with it, but neither am I so I thought I would ask here.

    I think this has been pretty helpful so far. I'm going to see to it that he gets WeakAuras installed and help him set up notifications to keep up buffs he is missing, and I'm going to distill this feedback and send it to him.

    Is there a spellflash-like addon for Combat Rogues that is recommended? I think that would really help him learn the proper rotation, since he might not know what buttons to hit when, and just following something like that for a few weeks would get him in the habit of it. That would probably up his DPS in the meantime.

    I can try to have him go Assassination but he would be even less familiar with that.

    Thanks!
    Ah sorry, didn't mean to sound harsh. It's easy to make mistakes when you are new to something.
    Combat is really easy to learn though, keep up the revealing strike debuff, keep up SnD, then just (basicly) spam sinister strike. Use eviscerate at five combo points.

    What I meant with him being afk is that it couldn't really be any other reason for the amount of eviscerates he did, seems like he waisted over 15 finishers(and then even the number of sinister strikes done seems low).
    But all that will ofcourse improve over time when he gets used to it, make sure to look up ice-veins, they have good class guides imo.

  8. #8
    As far as gear, ShadowC only shows ~80 dps of optimizations. Seems like she pretty well knows what she's doing there, but it stinks of AskMrRobot. I would swap to ShadowC for the best results.

    Others have pointed out the problems in her rotation. The most helpful thing is going to be getting a buff/debuff tracking addon. Most use WeakAuras (and you can find good imports; zero work). I use IceHUD because it looks pretty. Track CDs, CPs, SnD, and RvS.

    From there, it's really simple:
    • Use CDs on CD
    • Keep SnD up
    • Keep RvS up
    • SS to 5 CP
    • Evisc

    There's a bit more to it than that, but before you start messing with Anticipation, Insight, Rupture, or anything else, she needs to get the basics down and be able to execute them.

    Also, Assassination is a probably easier. It moves a lot slower and there's less to track. Icy-Veins' class guides are really good.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Squirl View Post
    As far as gear, ShadowC only shows ~80 dps of optimizations. Seems like she pretty well knows what she's doing there, but it stinks of AskMrRobot. I would swap to ShadowC for the best results.

    Others have pointed out the problems in her rotation. The most helpful thing is going to be getting a buff/debuff tracking addon. Most use WeakAuras (and you can find good imports; zero work). I use IceHUD because it looks pretty. Track CDs, CPs, SnD, and RvS.

    From there, it's really simple:
    • Use CDs on CD
    • Keep SnD up
    • Keep RvS up
    • SS to 5 CP
    • Evisc

    There's a bit more to it than that, but before you start messing with Anticipation, Insight, Rupture, or anything else, she needs to get the basics down and be able to execute them.

    Also, Assassination is a probably easier. It moves a lot slower and there's less to track. Icy-Veins' class guides are really good.
    This is the meat of the issue; getting that basic rotation down is nearly 100% of the problem. Missing SnD will tank his DPS, not using AR/SB shortly into the fight is a lot of missed damage, and not having RvS up is a big loss as well.

    Other things of note: Garrote doesn't need to be used for damage in PvE. Cooldowns come off CD faster in combat because of Restless Blades; killing spree should come off cooldown 9-10 times in a 9.5 minute fight, rather than 4.

    Any rogue guide should be the first place to look; Elegon mechanics are secondary.

  10. #10
    Awesome, thanks!

    I hadn't heard of ShadowC -- indeed he uses AskMrRobot for optimization, I'll let him know that ShadowCraft exists, though I don't know if it will make all that much of a difference, since we're not super-strict about dps, we're more casual than anything, but every bit helps!

    I've just had a long discussion with him and talked through all this, thankfully he is not opposed to outside assistance. He understood all the changes I told him he should make and such, he didn't really understand the importance of Revealing Strike before, and was having a hard time keeping Slice-n-dice up due to all the movement on the fight.

    I'm going to see if we can just let him park on Elegon for Phase 1/ Celestial Protectors, since we seem to burn them down pretty fast anyway, that should up his DPS quite a bit along with the suggestions here. He hadn't realized that Feint and then Cloak would let him not reset his stacks, so that's a ton of running around he can avoid and sit on the boss.

    Thanks everyone for helping out with this! Any additional tips are quite welcome, but I think so far this will help immensely.

  11. #11
    Bloodsail Admiral Aven Ballantyne's Avatar
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    Yeah the low uptime on SnD killed him. Assassination is probably the better spec for elegon. He also didn't use his cds much.

  12. #12
    o dammmmmmmm when i always do that rotation non stop, and even read about it it makes me depressed.......... oldddddddd rotation dammit.... like all rogues say, it will take another expansion until they revamp us .........

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