Welfare and Octomom

[Earthstar]

The child custody should take those children away.

I am saying this without judging her or looking down upon her... without malice to the doctor or the mother or ANYONE. I am not even THINKING about the welfare system.

There is no way she can take care of and afford all those kids. If she can't afford to take care of them, the children will grow up in subpar conditions, and that's not fair to ANY of them.

Part of my thinks she should at least keep two, but I think making her choose would be even worse, so all the children should be take by child custody.

And yes, it's a saddening thought, but it honestly is much better than the alternative...

[Themius]

I say take the kids away and then sterilize the bitch. Afterwards she can go back to porn to make a living or starve to death.

Exactly what is your problem? Sterelize and then say "starve to death"

This is the shit I do not get. Clearly a woman with issues WHO NEEDS HELP, who never got help because her issues were ignored by family and her doctor. The hostility towards her by just total strangers, I do not understand.

[Rhyseh]

I just want to know when she is going to have the 15th.... Obviously she's trying to have her very own Rugby team...

[Wiyld]

Also themius, as you have already quoted her wikii page im sure you read this part then.

Before knowledge of the octuplets became public, Suleman had been living with her six older children and mother in a small three-bedroom house in Whittier, California. Property records show the Suleman house in mortgage default, scheduled to be sold at auction in May 2009.[63] Suleman's parents filed for bankruptcy in 2008, citing nearly $1 million in liabilities.[64] In March 2010 it was reported that Suleman's own La Habra house was facing foreclosure.[65]

Suleman's father, Edward Doud Suleman,[66] identified himself as a former Iraqi military man and said he would be returning to his native Iraq as a translator and driver in order to financially support his daughter and her fourteen children.[67] Suleman's mother, Angela Victoria Suleman, a retired high school teacher, has helped to look after the first six children. She has indicated that she is overwhelmed looking after them, and has been critical of her daughter in her earlier public statements. Amongst similar interviews, she revealed that her daughter never expected to give birth to the large number of children, nor did she expect to be unemployed and use public assistance.


She was living with 6 kids AT HER MOMS HOUSE that she was in the process of losing. So she decided to have more kids, it doesn't even matter how many, even one more was a fucking sin. Then she drains her family dry, to the point that her dad had to MOVE BACK TO IRAQ to support them. Wait a min,, wasn't something happening in Iraq around that time? Oh right there was a fucking WAR. Her dad had to go into a warzone to drive cab to support her ass, all because she 'really wanted a lot of kids'. Now... what can you offer to defend or in any way justify ANYTHING this chick has done.

[Themius]

Yeah you say shes mentally unstable but then in the same breath put the blame on the doctor. REALITY CHECK being mentally unstable does NOT absolve you of responsibility for your actions.

SEPARATE the actions of octomom and the actions of the doctor. Both have their own judgments to face for their own choices and actions, one does not excuse or justify the other.

The thing is... the doctor is suppose to pick up on the instability, explain to their patients, and decline to do anything because it would be UNETHICAL. That isn't what happened in this case. Not only did he put more than he should have at her request, he put EVEN MORE AND LIED ABOUT IT TO HER. His motives clearly weren't for his patient, if they were he probably wouldn't have done it.

---------- Post added 2013-01-08 at 11:16 PM ----------

Also themius, as you have already quoted her wikii page im sure you read this part then.

Before knowledge of the octuplets became public, Suleman had been living with her six older children and mother in a small three-bedroom house in Whittier, California. Property records show the Suleman house in mortgage default, scheduled to be sold at auction in May 2009.[63] Suleman's parents filed for bankruptcy in 2008, citing nearly $1 million in liabilities.[64] In March 2010 it was reported that Suleman's own La Habra house was facing foreclosure.[65]

Suleman's father, Edward Doud Suleman,[66] identified himself as a former Iraqi military man and said he would be returning to his native Iraq as a translator and driver in order to financially support his daughter and her fourteen children.[67] Suleman's mother, Angela Victoria Suleman, a retired high school teacher, has helped to look after the first six children. She has indicated that she is overwhelmed looking after them, and has been critical of her daughter in her earlier public statements. Amongst similar interviews, she revealed that her daughter never expected to give birth to the large number of children, nor did she expect to be unemployed and use public assistance.


She was living with 6 kids AT HER MOMS HOUSE that she was in the process of losing. So she decided to have more kids, it doesn't even matter how many, even one more was a fucking sin. Then she drains her family dry, to the point that her dad had to MOVE BACK TO IRAQ to support them. Wait a min,, wasn't something happening in Iraq around that time? Oh right there was a fucking WAR. Her dad had to go into a warzone to drive cab to support her ass, all because she 'really wanted a lot of kids'. Now... what can you offer to defend or in any way justify ANYTHING this chick has done.

There is no point in talking to people who don't give a shit about psychology or the help it can do. Was she wrong...yes, is she mentally stable, no, does she need help? God yes. Instead she is being publically persecuted.

[Wiyld]

There is no point in talking to people who don't give a shit about psychology or the help it can do. Was she wrong...yes, is she mentally stable, no, does she need help? God yes. Instead she is being publically persecuted.

She is also clearly not seeking help.

So are you going to say now that she ought to be forcibly treated? Should she be arrested and put in an asylum until she can be cured? You've already ruled against taking any of the kids away from her so you clearly must not think shes all THAT disturbed, either that or you don't actually care anything about the welfare of the kids.

You attacked taking the kids away by claiming that the whole foster/adoption system is so terrible. Then actual people who came through that system told you it wasn't true. So now your just hung up on the doctor.

Look YOU started the thread off by asking why people are pissed at her, then you yourself got mad at those people when they answered the question and tried to move responsibility to anyone else you can. First it was all 'the doctor let her down' then i showed you shes been messed up forever and now your all 'everyone let her down'. What do you want? You want to make the entire world responsible for everyone else? Where do you draw the line? Why are we not allowed to be pissed at this woman for the things she has and continues to do?

And yes, I called you a troll, because you don't seem to have a reason or a real message for this thread at all, other then a chance to argue a terrible position.

[Themius]

She is also clearly not seeking help.

So are you going to say now that she ought to be forcibly treated? Should she be arrested and put in an asylum until she can be cured? You've already ruled against taking any of the kids away from her so you clearly must not think shes all THAT disturbed, either that or you don't actually care anything about the welfare of the kids.

You attacked taking the kids away by claiming that the whole foster/adoption system is so terrible. Then actual people who came through that system told you it wasn't true. So now your just hung up on the doctor.

Look YOU started the thread off by asking why people are pissed at her, then you yourself got mad at those people when they answered the question and tried to move responsibility to anyone else you can. First it was all 'the doctor let her down' then i showed you shes been messed up forever and now your all 'everyone let her down'. What do you want? You want to make the entire world responsible for everyone else? Where do you draw the line? Why are we not allowed to be pissed at this woman for the things she has and continues to do?

And yes, I called you a troll, because you don't seem to have a reason or a real message for this thread at all, other then a chance to argue a terrible position.

The argument changed from fostering/adoption to the doctor which is why I am talking about the doctor?

My main thing here is that people are too critical and don't actually give a shit about people, people have no compassion and if a person needs help, it's their own damn fault, to the point total strangers are okay with hating someone based off that. It's ridiculous.

Her not seeking help, what if she doesn't think she has a problem? Her being disowned and none of her doctors stopping and aiding her with her clear mental stability issues HELPS NOTHING. Cured? That's an odd word to use. I also didn't say she should be arrested where are you getting that from?

2 people mentioned it. I mentioned a story I know, there is another one. So pretty much 2 good ones 2 bad ones. I do not believe usurping 14 kids and sticking them in all different homes is beneficial and at the age they are, the likelihood of them being adopted isn't as high as it would have been if they were babies.

I didn't say she doesn't take some responsibility, she does, but there is only but so much blame you put on an unstable person, you have to start questioning what about all the people around her?

[Nekrus]

Themius I don't think you understand the fact that not all doctors are the same. I work in a mental health clinic and many mentally Ill are very good at masking their feelings to get what they want, in fact that is a major factor in borderline personality disorder. The doctor in question was a fertility doctor. Not even remotely the same. They are not trained to recognize all the warning signs that psychiatrist see, same as a psych provider would never write prescriptions or do any medical procedures for someone with a heart condition, neurological disorder, or urological problem.

Point is they specialize for a reason and her being mentally unstable does not take the responsibility out of her hands any more than an alcoholic taking a drink of alcohol. In the end the choice is still your own and responsibility falls upon each individual person.

[Themius]

Themis I don't think you understand the fact that not all doctors are the same. I work in a mental health clinic and many mentally I'll are very good at masking their feelings to get what they want, in fact that is a major factor in borderline personality disorder. The doctor in question was a fertility doctor. Not even remotely the same. They are not trained to recognize all the warning signs that psychiatrist see, same as a psych provider would never write prescriptions or do any medical procedures for someone with a heart condition, neurological disorder, or urological problem.

Point is they specialize for a reason and her being mentally unstable does not take the responsibility out of her hands any more than an alcoholic taking a drink of alcohol. In the end the choice is still your own and responsibility falls upon each individual person.

That may be the case, but what I'm saying is that this woman clearly shouldn't have had the 6 she requested as it's above norm, she sure as hell didn't need 12 + her doctor lying to her about the number. The doctor didn't care that much, it seems, and he did this with multiple patients. An alcoholic is responsible for their drinks; however, the people around them should try to help, not disown them, at least if they care about them.

[Wiyld]

I found this interesting.

"While the evidence did not establish (Kamrava) as a maverick or deviant physician, oblivious to standards of care in IVF practices, it certainly demonstrated that he did not exercise sound judgment in the transfer of 12 embryos to patient N.S. (Suleman)," the board wrote.

That is from the medical board who revoked his license. So, despite your raving about him being this terrible deviant, the fact is that the guy was disposed to make poor choices. So yeah, he made a bad choice, but it isn't as if he found this chick and dragged her back to the clinic.

This whole thing was a perfect storm, you had a super motivated manipulator asking for, and paying for, things she probably ought not have been asking for and a doctor who was clearly predisposed to take chances.

One could turn your entire argument on its head and say that the doctor should have been confronted about his actions by the people around him, IFV clinics employ more then 1 person. Any of the other employees could have reported him if they thought it was important. But no, no one did that, so when octomom showed up he had no chance in hell, this woman manipulates her way to what she wants. She used him to get what other doctors would have said no too. In the end he lost his job and any chance of practicing in his life's career. Think about it, he worked his ass off to get there and this one person blew it for him.

See what I did there?

Or does it not count because she didn't have the white coat on?

[skybar]

I think what happen happened and at least she is TRYING to support her kids unlike some dead beat drug addict mothers. People make mistakes, we are all human. The fact that some of you are saying she should get her children taken away from her is very discomforting. I rather give my money to a lady who is trying to feed her family then one who just wants another hit. I do have to agree with the people saying she might not be all there in her head but regardless at least she is trying to work with the hand she was dealt.

*edit: The mistake being having a 7th child after the 6th.

[Christan]

Kids which came from the unethical practice of a doctor.

even aside from the doctor, she had six.

she went to him wanting more.

even if she'd only had one new child, 6 is already to many for someone on welfare, deciding to have a 7th with an ethical doctor should of thrown her out of welfare.
just because her unethical doctor put a load of eggs in her doesn't mean squat, she had already decided to have more when having recently been on welfare with just six.

it is indeed mind boggling that people resort to pointing the finger at the doctor, who while unethical, the initial ethical crime came from the mother.


if you and some friend decide to rob a bank (you being the mother, friend being the doctor.)
and your friend knives the security guard dead(this being the part where the doctor is unethical and transplants more eggs) (i say knives because some countries don't have guns)
you are to blame for the murder(8 extra kids) as well as the bank robbery(the decision to have extra kids), not just your friend for the murder(8 extra kids)

she is in the blame for having the eight extra children, as well as the initial decision to have more.

just the way i see it

I think what happen happened and at least she is TRYING to support her kids unlike some dead beat drug addict mothers. People make mistakes, we are all human. The fact that some of you are saying she should get her children taken away from her is very discomforting. I rather give my money to a lady who is trying to feed her family then one who just wants another hit. I do have to agree with the people saying she might not be all there in her head but regardless at least she is trying to work with the hand she was dealt.

she is trying, but her unethical practices should not be paid for by ethical taxpayers. if she'd left it at 6, then sure fine.

people do make mistakes, if it was a legal issue she would be thrown in jail even if utterly ignorant of the law, her welfare should be taken away as such

she should be able to keep her children if she can take care of them, though i think a legally enforced sterilization is in order.(i know it sounds bad but she is a criminal in my eyes, inmates don't get to decide how they spend their jail time, in some cases legally enforced chemical castration is already used)

and she dealt her own hand when she decided to have even 1 more child when already having been on welfare with 6, even if her welfare had stopped for a while that is still a LOT of kids to take care of, for a single person to many to begin with, unless they are rich and can afford caretakers(how can you work enough to feed 6 children yourself and pay the higher water/electrical bills, and have enough time to raise your children properly)

tldr: she dealt her own hand even deciding to have more and should be sterilized.

[Wiyld]

That may be the case, but what I'm saying is that this woman clearly shouldn't have had the 6 she requested as it's above norm, she sure as hell didn't need 12 + her doctor lying to her about the number. The doctor didn't care that much, it seems, and he did this with multiple patients. An alcoholic is responsible for their drinks; however, the people around them should try to help, not disown them, at least if they care about them.

Ironic you keep saying that 'people around her should have helped her' while trumpeting the value of psychological treatments. In fact her mother was helping her immensely, until her mother had a breakdown and was told by HER MENTAL HEALTH DOCTOR to get the hell away from her daughter as the kid is messed up and draggin her mother down with her. How do you get off saying no one helped her? She was told by everyone close to her she was wrong, don't do this, your making a bad choice. Her fucking husband divorced her over the issue, I'd say that's a pretty big message if I've ever heard one. They tried to help her, she wouldn't have it. Again, are you saying she should have been forced into treatment? Lets be clear, we're talking about straight jackets and sedatives if she doesn't go along willingly.




Also, the other 2 patients the doctor was accused of mistreating were 1 fertility case where the woman had 4 kids with many complications due to her age, and 1 case where he missed seeing cancer on a scan of a patient. Since hes not a cancer doctor they didn't hold that against him much since like was posted above, it was outside his field.

---------- Post added 2013-01-08 at 11:56 PM ----------

Incidentally it appears she has 26 frozen eggs left now, not sure where they came from but whatever.

Stay tuned I guess

[Themius]

I found this interesting.

"While the evidence did not establish (Kamrava) as a maverick or deviant physician, oblivious to standards of care in IVF practices, it certainly demonstrated that he did not exercise sound judgment in the transfer of 12 embryos to patient N.S. (Suleman)," the board wrote.

That is from the medical board who revoked his license. So, despite your raving about him being this terrible deviant, the fact is that the guy was disposed to make poor choices. So yeah, he made a bad choice, but it isn't as if he found this chick and dragged her back to the clinic.

This whole thing was a perfect storm, you had a super motivated manipulator asking for, and paying for, things she probably ought not have been asking for and a doctor who was clearly predisposed to take chances.

One could turn your entire argument on its head and say that the doctor should have been confronted about his actions by the people around him, IFV clinics employ more then 1 person. Any of the other employees could have reported him if they thought it was important. But no, no one did that, so when octomom showed up he had no chance in hell, this woman manipulates her way to what she wants. She used him to get what other doctors would have said no too. In the end he lost his job and any chance of practicing in his life's career. Think about it, he worked his ass off to get there and this one person blew it for him.

See what I did there?

Or does it not count because she didn't have the white coat on?

So basically he lacked judgement and made a bad clal.

IFV clinics may have more than 1 person but how many people know EXACTLY how many embryos he puts into any one person?

---------- Post added 2013-01-09 at 12:09 AM ----------

Ironic you keep saying that 'people around her should have helped her' while trumpeting the value of psychological treatments. In fact her mother was helping her immensely, until her mother had a breakdown and was told by HER MENTAL HEALTH DOCTOR to get the hell away from her daughter as the kid is messed up and draggin her mother down with her. How do you get off saying no one helped her? She was told by everyone close to her she was wrong, don't do this, your making a bad choice. Her fucking husband divorced her over the issue, I'd say that's a pretty big message if I've ever heard one. They tried to help her, she wouldn't have it. Again, are you saying she should have been forced into treatment? Lets be clear, we're talking about straight jackets and sedatives if she doesn't go along willingly.




Also, the other 2 patients the doctor was accused of mistreating were 1 fertility case where the woman had 4 kids with many complications due to her age, and 1 case where he missed seeing cancer on a scan of a patient. Since hes not a cancer doctor they didn't hold that against him much since like was posted above, it was outside his field.

---------- Post added 2013-01-08 at 11:56 PM ----------

Incidentally it appears she has 26 frozen eggs left now, not sure where they came from but whatever.

Stay tuned I guess

A husband divorcing her doesn't exactly = help or a support system now does it? That is more likely to have to spiraling down.

[Wiyld]

A husband divorcing her doesn't exactly = help or a support system now does it? That is more likely to have to spiraling down.

Her mother has gone on record claiming that her daughter has always told her very clearly that she does not want to be married she just wants 12 or more kids.

So the fact that she was married at all, tells me that she was using the guy for his semen. They tried to have kids and officially their inability to do so was the reason for the divorce. Apparently the husband was against 'test tube babies' for some reason.

As I said, her mother was instructed by a mental health professional to get away from her daughter and separate herself from her situation. So I'm not sure where you get the authority to say that she ought to have done the opposite. The fact is that 'Octomom' is a rolling train wreck, she'll use anyone and everyone she can to get what she wants, taking them down with her.

So unless your willing to yes 'yes, I think she ought to have been, and still should be, dragged off forcibly to a mental health treatment facility until shes deemed 'mentally stable' to use your own term for her 'condition'.


I should add that she HAS in fact been assessed by shrinks, she committed herself after the delivery for 'stress and fatigue'. Lol yeah, I'll bet. Anyways, they let her out again, so either they aren't legally allowed to hold her, or shes not mentally unstable, shes just a selfish manipulator.



So, to answer your very original post, THAT is why people don't like her.

She cons people into feeling sorry for her, uses her kids as a meal ticket and lives off of it all.

[Themius]

Her mother has gone on record claiming that her daughter has always told her very clearly that she does not want to be married she just wants 12 or more kids.

So the fact that she was married at all, tells me that she was using the guy for his semen. They tried to have kids and officially their inability to do so was the reason for the divorce. Apparently the husband was against 'test tube babies' for some reason.

As I said, her mother was instructed by a mental health professional to get away from her daughter and separate herself from her situation. So I'm not sure where you get the authority to say that she ought to have done the opposite. The fact is that 'Octomom' is a rolling train wreck, she'll use anyone and everyone she can to get what she wants, taking them down with her.

So unless your willing to yes 'yes, I think she ought to have been, and still should be, dragged off forcibly to a mental health treatment facility until shes deemed 'mentally stable' to use your own term for her 'condition'.


I should add that she HAS in fact been assessed by shrinks, she committed herself after the delivery for 'stress and fatigue'. Lol yeah, I'll bet. Anyways, they let her out again, so either they aren't legally allowed to hold her, or shes not mentally unstable, shes just a selfish manipulator.



So, to answer your very original post, THAT is why people don't like her.

She cons people into feeling sorry for her, uses her kids as a meal ticket and lives off of it all.

The mental health professional told the mother what to do that was best for the mother. It still leaves the issue of a person that didn't get the help she needed.

I feel like reality has 2 issues, the public and the people in the shows. The public feels they know absolutely everything about whoever is on the tele and past judgments on them, that are very harsh. The woman has issues, and wasn't mentally sound to deal with that issue. It's not something you'd get committed for, if she tried to kill herself or harm someone, then yes. Otherwise, you can be as emotionally unstable or mentally unstable as you want, as long as you're not plum crazy you're not going to get committed.

[Thunderball]

What is with people? She shouldn't be eligible for welfare. The idea of rewarding people for abusing their reproductive capibility is mind blowing. Personally? This woman should be steralized and the kids she can't provide for taken away and put into state care.

She cannot possibly raise 14 kids, it's impossible for one person to do and she doesn't have money to pay for additional care takers.

Replies like this one blow my mind instantly. Let's imagine for a second that you are taken to the state care when your mother wants to raise you and isnt allowed to do so. Now think again and read what you've just wrote here.

[Jaxsz]

So let's get this straight.

Her bills are in excess of 100k a year

You don't think she should get welfare,

which means you don't think her children need to eat, or need to go to the doctors, or need to go to the dentist.

A regular job isn't going to cut it to pay for her bills lol. Not at this point.

Her kids deserve food. She just doesn't deserve to take care of them, and they should be taken from her.

Without any form of consequences for this sort of ridiculous behavior, people will just keep it up.

[Priestiality]

So let's get this straight.

Her bills are in excess of 100k a year

You don't think she should get welfare,

which means you don't think her children need to eat, or need to go to the doctors, or need to go to the dentist.

A regular job isn't going to cut it to pay for her bills lol. Not at this point.

No, we think she should have stopped after like 1 or 2, instead she opted to seek fertility treatments that SHE DIDN'T EVEN NEED based on the fact she already pumped out 6 social parasites to bleed hard-working Americans dry. It's not that she can't get a job, she doesn't want to. She got used to the celebrity factor that came from popping out 8 kids at once, and when that stopped, as it always does, she didn't know how to re-assimilate herself into the real world.

EDIT: And as for the "regular job won't cut it", she could still get EBT and Medicare for the kids to supplement her income. Hell, my friend does just that. Makes minimum wage 35 hours a week (or less) because that's literally the only jobs available in our area. But, because he has 3 kids, he gets limited monthly assistance in the form of a set amount of money to be spent solely on feeding the children.

[Mormolyce]

It's because she had 8 kids when she already had 6 and she was a single mother. Pretty much anyone should discern that unless you're independently wealthy, it's not going to happen financially.

It's basically a case of somebody's blatantly reckless actions costing taxpayers a sizable bill.

You know, once you take immigrants out of the equation America's birth rate is actually below replacement levels. And the most fertile segment of the community is teen mothers. So in a way, you should be thanking the octomom. Without women like her you'd have an ageing population, with all the attendant economic consequences of that. And you'd probably all be speaking Spanish by now :P