Welfare and Octomom

[Maleficus]

No, you misunderstood my argument.

You can't be pro-life and support FORCED abortions.

Fair enough. Personally, the idea of the government forcing people to do just about anything does not sit well with me.

[skrump]

Exactly what is your problem? Sterelize and then say "starve to death"

This is the shit I do not get. Clearly a woman with issues WHO NEEDS HELP, who never got help because her issues were ignored by family and her doctor. The hostility towards her by just total strangers, I do not understand.

How does she need help, A mental illness did not cause her to want these kids, she is an attention whore who is using her children as cashcows and it was her intent to do so from day 1.

[Vyxn]

I feel that there needs to be very tight restrictions on what welfare money could be spent own. it should only be allowed to be spent on things that directly benefit the kid like rent, utilities, clothing for the kid, school supplies and so on
to may times welfare money is spent on things that only benefit the parent

I don't mind helping a poor kid out because he or she was brought into this world of no fault of their own but i will be dammed if what i give goes towards the parent benefit and only their benefit because there irresponsible decision and actions

[Hiricine]

Fair enough. Personally, the idea of the government forcing people to do just about anything does not sit well with me.

As someone who normally feels the same way, I feel that forcing people to do things that are leeching productivity from society is more of say, a government contract. When the government buys a new weapon system, it doesn't just give the weapons developer money- they have to do something for it and often enter some binding agreements with the feds. Why not treat welfare as a contract, and force people who enter into it to abide by some rules.

[skrump]

The argument changed from fostering/adoption to the doctor which is why I am talking about the doctor?

My main thing here is that people are too critical and don't actually give a shit about people, people have no compassion and if a person needs help, it's their own damn fault, to the point total strangers are okay with hating someone based off that. It's ridiculous.

Her not seeking help, what if she doesn't think she has a problem? Her being disowned and none of her doctors stopping and aiding her with her clear mental stability issues HELPS NOTHING. Cured? That's an odd word to use. I also didn't say she should be arrested where are you getting that from?

2 people mentioned it. I mentioned a story I know, there is another one. So pretty much 2 good ones 2 bad ones. I do not believe usurping 14 kids and sticking them in all different homes is beneficial and at the age they are, the likelihood of them being adopted isn't as high as it would have been if they were babies.

I didn't say she doesn't take some responsibility, she does, but there is only but so much blame you put on an unstable person, you have to start questioning what about all the people around her?

Easy if she doesn't believe she has a problem her support system should be withdrawn until she pulls her head out of her ass and starts making some responsible choices.

[Grimbold21]

Completely random question but related to the welfare issue: in the US, can illegal immigrants obtain any sort of benefit/aid from such services?

[llDemonll]

she made the decision to have more kids when she couldn't afford the ones she already had. welfare should cut her off.

[Purlina]

As someone who normally feels the same way, I feel that forcing people to do things that are leeching productivity from society is more of say, a government contract. When the government buys a new weapon system, it doesn't just give the weapons developer money- they have to do something for it and often enter some binding agreements with the feds. Why not treat welfare as a contract, and force people who enter into it to abide by some rules.

You can legally cut off someones welfare, but you can not legally force a person to get an abortion.

[Hiricine]

You can legally cut off someones welfare, but you can not legally force a person to get an abortion.

Well if we're talking about legality, almost anything under the sun is fair game. Forced abortions would be as simple as having people sign on the dotted line "In accepting welfare I grant the state the right to forcibly abort any child I have". We'd just need a legislature awesomely insane enough to make it legal.

[skrump]

Completely random question but related to the welfare issue: in the US, can illegal immigrants obtain any sort of benefit/aid from such services?

Yep they do it all the time, come over here and shit out their babies and then proceed to enjoy the ride because since the baby was born here it is indeed considered a citizen.

Even non citizen children are cared for to a certain extent and often times allow the mother to escape deportation due to the public outrage of one being unsympathetic to a child regardless of it's nationality.

I myself am not one of those people I believe I child should only be born as a citizen if one of their parents is already a citizen, otherwise drop them back off on their side of whatever boarder their mother crossed to get here.

[Grimbold21]

Yep they do it all the time, come over here and shit out their babies and then proceed to enjoy the ride because since the baby was born here it is indeed considered a citizen.

Even non citizen children are cared for to a certain extent and often times allow the mother to escape deportation due to the public outrage of one being unsympathetic to a child regardless of it's nationality.

I myself am not one of those people I believe I child should only be born as a citizen if one of their parents is already a citizen, otherwise drop them back off on their side of whatever boarder their mother crossed to get here.

And outside of that scenario?

Because i've heard of cases where illegal immigrants who , for whatever reason, became unemployed and were unable to pay their bills, made use of such services or institutions.
Im talking giving them money for rent, gas/electric bill, food etc

[Purlina]

Well if we're talking about legality, almost anything under the sun is fair game. Forced abortions would be as simple as having people sign on the dotted line "In accepting welfare I grant the state the right to forcibly abort any child I have". We'd just need a legislature awesomely insane enough to make it legal.

That's not a forced abortion, that would be a voluntary one since you agree to have one...


If you latter disagree they can not tie you down and perform an abortion, all they could do is stop the welfare payments.

[skrump]

[/COLOR]

Well if we're talking about legality, almost anything under the sun is fair game. Forced abortions would be as simple as having people sign on the dotted line "In accepting welfare I grant the state the right to forcibly abort any child I have". We'd just need a legislature awesomely insane enough to make it legal.

Though I think it is an excellent idea I think the religious zealots would somehow convince the legislature that it would be religious persecution even though it isn't because they are given the option to abandon government aid and stay true to their religion or abandon their religion to keep receiving government aid.

Then again if you are religious and a single mother their is a high probability that you have already abandoned the teaching of your religion on at least one occasion so what harm will doing it once more cause.

[Hiricine]

And outside of that scenario?

Because i've heard of cases where illegal immigrants who , for whatever reason, became unemployed and were unable to pay their bills, made use of such services or institutions.
Im talking giving them money for rent, gas/electric bill, food etc

Well if you want a very clear-cut example, as an Emergency Room employee, a non-english speaking couple goes to the ER with no documentation at all, with no intention of paying and receives services mandated to be given to them by the government. The hospital increases everyone else's bill to recoup the loss, and society ends up paying through medicare.

[Tinykong]

Why is this major news, because Octomom is involved? A mutual friend of my wife and I is on food stamps, WIC and welfare, and lives in a 2,500 sq foot house with her husband and 6 kids. What did they do when benefits recently got reduced? Had another kid to keep the dollars coming in. Nothing new here, people have been gaming the system as long as the system has been around.

[Purlina]

Well if you want a very clear-cut example, as an Emergency Room employee, a non-english speaking couple goes to the ER with no documentation at all, with no intention of paying and receives services mandated to be given to them by the government. The hospital increases everyone else's bill to recoup the loss, and society ends up paying through medicare.

Well yeah, legally the ER can't turn anyone away. (Depending on the state)

[Tinykong]

Well if you want a very clear-cut example, as an Emergency Room employee, a non-english speaking couple goes to the ER with no documentation at all, with no intention of paying and receives services mandated to be given to them by the government. The hospital increases everyone else's bill to recoup the loss, and society ends up paying through medicare.

Why should health care organizations be protected from business losses?

[Rukentuts]

Why should health care organizations be protected from business losses?

If Obamacare got thrown out by SCOTUS that would be my exact argument. Would probably work better than the mandate anyway.

[GennGreymane]

just going to throw a wrench in here about welfare in general

[Seranthor]

Me? Pro-life?

Seriously?

PS: I find the mere suggestion I'm a Republican utterly hilarious, considering this is a topic where even Wells labeled Octomom as "waste".

left or right, liberal or conservative; it seems that many of us that rankly disagree with each other seem to have a consensus about Octomom.

---------- Post added 2013-01-09 at 06:50 PM ----------

14 kids was the norm back before contraception was available for most people

yes, and back when that happened folks were responsible enough to raise their own kids without leeching off of society. Perhaps you should invest some of your time in finding out what her parents have had to say about the mental state and motivations of their daughter.