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  1. #41
    Dreadlord Manabomb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathgoose View Post
    I thought the 5.0 requirement of 460/470 for LFR was already too high. 460 iLvL is basically decked out in mostly heroic blues from 5-mans, which is what the 4.0 NORMAL mode raids were tuned for people to get in and start downing bosses and getting 489/496 gear.

    Then you have LFR, something that is often categorized as a cesspool of window-licking mouth-breathers since the target demographic are the casuals and baddies, with the random 'real' raider mingling with the unwashed masses because they want to help cap their VP or speed up completing their 2p/4p bonuses. Basically raiding on EZMODE!

    So then why does the entry level LFR have essentially the same requirement to get into as the entry level normal modes? Why isn't the required iLvL 450, which would imply that you are at least wearing a full set of the crafted 450 blues (or better) and the 450 weapon from Arena of Annihilation (or better)?

    But okay, so say I did my farming, I got my 460, then my 470, and I've farmed the shit out of HoF/ToES on LFR and I have 100% of my slots decked out with 483's.

    That makes my iLvL a 483, which still isn't good enough to meet the 486 requirement for the new LFR.

    Yes, I know, VP upgrades will get you there, but that also assumes you have 483 in every slot. RNG is RNG and how many of us go week after week with nothing but 28g 50s to show for their boss kills?)

    Or, spend VP on the VP gear, which is also true, but as people like to toss out so frequently, "VP Gear is not required. You should raid for raid gear" so you can't assume that either.

    So does it strike anyone else as odd how high the iLvL for LFR, aka casual ezmode free loot for queueing, seems to be, especially for 5.2?
    While I applaud this point, I'd like to point out while rng is rng and there will always be someone that never gets a drop and someone who always gets what they want, 486 ilvl is 486 ilvl. You can easily attain this with minor luck and valor points spending and/or item upgrades on the way there. Sure there are people that wish to not "utilize the valor points because it's not required" but realize again that the target demographic for lfr includes people that don't believe in this philosophy.
    Thus you're talking about a very small minority of people that are too casual to get into a normal mode raiding guild, but refuse to improve their character beyond loot drops. And to be fair, these minorities either need to buck up and get some better gear or change their philosophy or fall behind a couple weeks when 5.2 hits. It's their choice, so we shouldn't be rewarding them for gimping themselves, even if lfr is ultra easy hyper lolmode raiding.
    Reduce- Iconic class abilities, complexity and meaningful rotations, usefulness of any one class in a raid group
    Reuse- A continent from 3 expansions ago, a story arch from 3 games ago, characters that would otherwise be dead
    Recycle- A beaten to death plot-line, the nostalgia goggles for TBC, bossfight mechanics that make patchwerk seem complex
    The three R's of Warlords of Draenor and that doesn't even mention flying, #savekarabor, blizzard store, tier to tier ilvl skips.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Luciferiuz View Post
    Are you implying that ever tier of LFR is the same difficulty despite them having different ilvl requirements? Do I seriously have to spell myself out like I would to a small child?

    Heroics dont take work to get 460 ilvl. Thats like 2 days and is natural progression, you dont need enchants or anything, its definitely not the same as gearing for normal mode - just because people did normal in 463 (different to 460) doesn't mean its possible by the average player. Generally MSV is closer to 465+.

    So spend a couple days in heroics, or less if you have some justice points, get 460 and do LFR. It's not hard.

    That being said, there are some dps/healing brackets you need to hit on bosses like Gara'jal in LFR that 450 ilvl players could potentially compromise. The system works.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-09 at 09:54 AM ----------



    Just because you can't be 486 the day 5.2 is out doesn't mean you won't be 486 eventually.

    There is a difference between "I'll never be able to do the new LFR!" and "I won't be able to the do the new LFR on the day it releases because I have chosen not to do any normal mode raids, dailies or buy crafted epics and instead just farm the normal LFR once a week".

    Maybe if you look close enough you can spot it.
    I am not concerned with being 486 when it goes live. I think 486 is too high and I predict it will not be that high when it goes live. Maybe you have had better luck with the present LFR runs and have got lucky with Sha Tier drops, but donot assume everyone can easily " eventually" get to 486. It's a very bad idea to raise it to 486 and I donot have to look hard to see that.:P

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Manabomb View Post
    While I applaud this point, I'd like to point out while rng is rng and there will always be someone that never gets a drop and someone who always gets what they want, 486 ilvl is 486 ilvl. You can easily attain this with minor luck and valor points spending and/or item upgrades on the way there. Sure there are people that wish to not "utilize the valor points because it's not required" but realize again that the target demographic for lfr includes people that don't believe in this philosophy.
    Thus you're talking about a very small minority of people that are too casual to get into a normal mode raiding guild, but refuse to improve their character beyond loot drops. And to be fair, these minorities either need to buck up and get some better gear or change their philosophy or fall behind a couple weeks when 5.2 hits. It's their choice, so we shouldn't be rewarding them for gimping themselves, even if lfr is ultra easy hyper lolmode raiding.
    So much this.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-09 at 10:00 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostpanther View Post
    I am not concerned with being 486 when it goes live. I think 486 is too high and I predict it will not be that high when it goes live. Maybe you have had better luck with the present LFR runs and have got lucky with Sha Tier drops, but donot assume everyone can easily " eventually" get to 486. It's a very bad idea to raise it to 486 and I donot have to look hard to see that.:P
    They can easily get to 486. Fact. Whether they can easily do that completely ignoring any avenue of loot apart from LFR is to be seen.

    Not even taking into account the fact that Ghostcrawler has confirmed the 5.0 LFRs will have increased drop rates in 5.2

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathgoose View Post
    Are you implying that LFR is so hard that you need to spend as much time gearing for it as you do for normal mode? Because that 460 iLvL you farmed up over a weekend? That's good enough to get into the 5.0 entry level raid, MSV.

    Which was my point from a few threads back.

    So which is it? Is LFR some kind of srs bzn that we need to farm incessently to do, or is it casual ezmode for window lickers. Because it can't be both.
    LFR is intended for people who don't have time to do normal/heroic raids. Its not a part of normal raid progression, its exists as an alternative. So yeah, the gear progression should be very similar to normal raids.

  5. #45
    I wonder what the honor gear ilvl will be next season.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by nazrakin View Post
    LFR is intended for people who don't have time to do normal/heroic raids. Its not a part of normal raid progression, its exists as an alternative. So yeah, the gear progression should be very similar to normal raids.
    If LFR had similar loot to Normal, it'd just hurt the Normal raiders...
    Nyoro~n? (´・ω・`)
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  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Luciferiuz View Post
    So much this.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-09 at 10:00 AM ----------



    They can easily get to 486. Fact. Whether they can easily do that completely ignoring any avenue of loot apart from LFR is to be seen.

    Not even taking into account the fact that Ghostcrawler has confirmed the 5.0 LFRs will have increased drop rates in 5.2
    Lets see, this has been pointed out before...if you want to only do LFR runs and are not too keen on grinding out dailies ( which Blizz has posted before, you donot have to do dailies to progress in LFR raids ) the progression has been...you do 5 man heroics to get to 460..then the Vaults to get to 470. This can be done without doing any dailies at all. Now you raise it to 486, and the Sha only drops 2 496 tier pcs and we are assuming you are going be very lucky to get those,( which out of 4 level 90s I have used to do him when I can every week, I have only got one 496 tier pc on one char ) even then, without doing any dailies..you cannot " easily " get to 486 level. 480 ..yes. Now I would agree if you are willing to spend eveyday grinding out all the factions to get the gear they offer, then it can be done.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    I wonder what the honor gear ilvl will be next season.
    I'd imagine that are just going to move conquest gear to honour like they have done in previous seasons, so 483 for armour and 470 for weapons. If this is the case I guess it will be a return to TBC days where people PVP in order to get gear to raid with and I'm not sure that it a such a great idea.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostpanther View Post
    Lets see, this has been pointed out before...if you want to only do LFR runs and are not too keen on grinding out dailies ( which Blizz has posted before, you donot have to do dailies to progress in LFR raids ) the progression has been...you do 5 man heroics to get to 460..then the Vaults to get to 470. This can be done without doing any dailies at all. Now you raise it to 486, and the Sha only drops 2 496 tier pcs and we are assuming you are going be very lucky to get those,( which out of 4 level 90s I have used to do him when I can every week, I have only got one 496 tier pc on one char ) even then, without doing any dailies..you cannot " easily " get to 486 level. 480 ..yes. Now I would agree if you are willing to spend eveyday grinding out all the factions to get the gear they offer, then it can be done.
    483s from HoF/ToES + 496 from Sha + the odd 486 valor item from reps that you can get to honoured without dailies like Klaxxi + a crafted item or two? just maybe? what are you spending your time on anyway + valor upgrades = 486+

    I'm not saying its easy, nor should it be since you are ignoring a lot of content, but it's definitely doable. Especially after the 5.0 drop rate gets buffed.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-09 at 10:20 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterHamster View Post
    If LFR had similar loot to Normal, it'd just hurt the Normal raiders...
    Thats not what he said. He was saying the progression to getting into LFR should be the same as the progression to get into normal raids.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostpanther View Post
    Lets see, this has been pointed out before...if you want to only do LFR runs and are not too keen on grinding out dailies ( which Blizz has posted before, you donot have to do dailies to progress in LFR raids ) the progression has been...you do 5 man heroics to get to 460..then the Vaults to get to 470. This can be done without doing any dailies at all. Now you raise it to 486, and the Sha only drops 2 496 tier pcs and we are assuming you are going be very lucky to get those,( which out of 4 level 90s I have used to do him when I can every week, I have only got one 496 tier pc on one char ) even then, without doing any dailies..you cannot " easily " get to 486 level. 480 ..yes. Now I would agree if you are willing to spend eveyday grinding out all the factions to get the gear they offer, then it can be done.
    Pretty much all I was trying to say. 486 seems like a high number for LFR.

    And somehow, that became "460 is hard to get".

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathgoose View Post
    Pretty much all I was trying to say. 486 seems like a high number for LFR.

    And somehow, that became "460 is hard to get".
    Probably diverted when you began saying that 450 was a better ilvl for LFR. That kind of threw any faith in your argument out the window.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    I'd imagine that are just going to move conquest gear to honour like they have done in previous seasons, so 483 for armour and 470 for weapons. If this is the case I guess it will be a return to TBC days where people PVP in order to get gear to raid with and I'm not sure that it a such a great idea.
    It was only bad before because you had half of the itemization wasted of Resilience.

    PvP Res/Power is effectively free now, and you get 2 secondary stats on every piece of PvP gear. The iLvL is a wee lower to compensate for it, yes, but if you compared a PvP 483 with a PvE 483, they would have the exact same 2 values in primary stats, and basically the same 2 values in secondary stats. The PvP gear would just have the Res/Power which means nothing in PvE.

  13. #53
    Anyone who honestly thinks that the 486 ilvl requirement will make it to live is probably not understanding why it is currently at 486.

    Think of it like this: This it the PTR and Blizzard wants the content to be tested. If every random player was allowed to queue for it, they'd have to sift through a ton of poor feedback because, as many of you have seen, there is a high volume of bad players that use LFR. Limiting it to 486 on the PTR means that most of the feedback they get will be from normal/heroic mode raiders. These are the kind of players that understand how fight mechanics work and can actually provide useful feedback.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Luciferiuz View Post
    Probably diverted when you began saying that 450 was a better ilvl for LFR. That kind of threw any faith in your argument out the window.
    Fine, 458 (JP gear) for MSV, and 463 (full heroic gearing) for HoF/ToES.

    However, mind you, you were the one that was resorting to insults on more than one instance because I tossed out a hypothetical number that you disagreed with.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by kuku2 View Post
    Anyone who honestly thinks that the 486 ilvl requirement will make it to live is probably not understanding why it is currently at 486.

    Think of it like this: This it the PTR and Blizzard wants the content to be tested. If every random player was allowed to queue for it, they'd have to sift through a ton of poor feedback because, as many of you have seen, there is a high volume of bad players that use LFR. Limiting it to 486 on the PTR means that most of the feedback they get will be from normal/heroic mode raiders. These are the kind of players that understand how fight mechanics work and can actually provide useful feedback.
    This discussion isn't so much that it will remain at 486, but that if it did remain at 486 whether that would be viable for players to get to.

    Stupid, I know.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-09 at 10:31 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathgoose View Post
    Fine, 458 (JP gear) for MSV, and 463 (full heroic gearing) for HoF/ToES.

    However, mind you, you were the one that was resorting to insults on more than one instance because I tossed out a hypothetical number that you disagreed with.
    Those numbers are unnecessary and kind of ridiculous, especially with the new item upgrade system. I seriously don't understand what you find difficult about getting to 460/470 respectively - is it that you want to be able to do all of the LFRs instantly when you hit 90?

    I never resorted to insults. I utilized them in addition to valid points to emphasise how ridiculous I found your opinions and arguments. As I continue to do.
    Last edited by Luciferiuz; 2013-01-08 at 11:45 PM.

  16. #56
    I liked the dungeon hubs and the strories they told. Magister's terrace, ICC and Hour of Twilight had cool strories that will now be done in the shitty Daily questlines.

  17. #57
    Well 486 is no issue for any of my toons that I care about I do agree that 486 seems high.

    There has been a blue post saying hey guys chill out a bit remember it is PTR.

    I was expecting 480 for first 2 bits and 490 for 2nd two bits.

    Think this would be ok with most people (remember you are never going to please everyone).

    Also remember there will be.

    New PvP gear (great for PvE in MoP!).

    New Crafted gear.

    New Valor gear.

    Maybe they might lower of remove rep requirements from existing Valor gear, I don't think we whould throw all our toys out of our prams until we see the full picture tbh, but hey I guess this is MMO-C after all

    Also remember you don't 100% need to run LFR the week it is released, you do know its ok to be a week or so behind right?

    I applaud some sense of progression again, but I do also agree 486 seems high for first bit anyways.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    I liked the dungeon hubs and the strories they told. Magister's terrace, ICC and Hour of Twilight had cool strories that will now be done in the shitty Daily questlines.
    Common nominator with those examples is that they shipped with the last tier of an expansion.

  19. #59
    Dreadlord Manabomb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostpanther View Post
    Lets see, this has been pointed out before...if you want to only do LFR runs and are not too keen on grinding out dailies ( which Blizz has posted before, you donot have to do dailies to progress in LFR raids ) the progression has been...you do 5 man heroics to get to 460..then the Vaults to get to 470. This can be done without doing any dailies at all. Now you raise it to 486, and the Sha only drops 2 496 tier pcs and we are assuming you are going be very lucky to get those,( which out of 4 level 90s I have used to do him when I can every week, I have only got one 496 tier pc on one char ) even then, without doing any dailies..you cannot " easily " get to 486 level. 480 ..yes. Now I would agree if you are willing to spend eveyday grinding out all the factions to get the gear they offer, then it can be done.
    Why are you ignoring any and all additional ways to progress yous and relying on lfr/heroic dungeons to carry you?

    You can pvp, you can do dailies for items at exalted with golden lotus and the klaaxi (free ring and neck anyone?)
    There's sha and galleon (Although the latter is so evasive it's more rewarding to actually get a kill on him than actually get loot)
    There are absolutely scores of ways you can progress your character other than heroics and lfr compared to the earlier days of wow and you're asking to not only make one of the easiest concepts in the game easier, but you are also annexing all these multiple progression paths?

    You sir, don't have an argument here. What you have is whining that it's unfair that you don't wish to progress in the fields you really enjoy at an optimum rate, especially considering it's bloody lfr.
    Reduce- Iconic class abilities, complexity and meaningful rotations, usefulness of any one class in a raid group
    Reuse- A continent from 3 expansions ago, a story arch from 3 games ago, characters that would otherwise be dead
    Recycle- A beaten to death plot-line, the nostalgia goggles for TBC, bossfight mechanics that make patchwerk seem complex
    The three R's of Warlords of Draenor and that doesn't even mention flying, #savekarabor, blizzard store, tier to tier ilvl skips.

  20. #60
    Titan Kangodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    I liked the dungeon hubs and the strories they told. Magister's terrace, ICC and Hour of Twilight had cool strories that will now be done in the shitty Daily questlines.
    How the F can you make this thread about dailies?
    it's about lfr and the loot in old raids..

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