Customer Service Number is no longer toll free

[Deleted]

With all due respect I follow these forums closely I don't post much in SWTOR since I don't play anymore and I'm not going to interject my bias or opinion into the mix but I recall you saying this is your first MMO and you're not keen on fantasy MMO's which is fine but you need to have a pool of other developers/games to make a call on the level of content being good and service provided by getting out there. Don't put your blinders on, check out the level of content of some other games too you'd be surprised how much better other games can actually be if you don't tunnel vision on one game.

I think the issue here is people are in love with Star Wars and hanging on that feeling and hopping. If it wasn't the SW IP I think it would be already to late. I guess at the end of the day you're enjoying the game and that's what counts the most but other then the game play that you enjoy the rest is pretty much a train wreck down to CS, QA and over all upkeep of the game from where I'm sitting.

I really wanted the game to be a hit I actually pre-ordered the day pre-orders were available but I've played enough MMO's to see the writing on the wall and enjoyed my leveling experience and quietly moved on. Just saying.

EDIT: Best if I just agree to disagree on this

---------- Post added 2013-01-11 at 10:54 PM ----------

He played SWG, but that's it I believe. Which is also not a good indication of experience to distinguish between. I tend to take everything he says as an extremely personal bias and not reflective of actual MMO reality, simply because he seems to like this one genre so much.

Additionally, he's someone that has like hundreds of characters across multiple accounts for one game, so he really extends his own content. I don't understand how, but that's another reason why his view is so limited...which is fine since he's enjoying himself...but I agree not really able to see the flaws as well for those reasons.

(No offense intended Jamos, what you like is what you like and there's nothing wrong with that)

EDIT: Best if I just agree to disagree on this

[Argroth]

6yrs of SWG but I see what you mean.

I don't have the experience to say what has the best quality of content or output speed. I wasn't doing that though. I was simply stating that after having played over 2,000 hours of TOR I am in a good enough place to give my opinion on the content as a whole. My personal standards aren't determined solely by how many MMO's I've played. I have been gaming since 1987. I know what I like and I know what I consider to be good quality. Even with all the MMO experience in the world though my opinion would still be subjective.

I appreciate the offer of help but I don't think I have blinders on simply because I enjoy TOR. Not liking fantasy settings also means I don't have much choice really. EvE is the only real alternative and the space combat system there isn't appealing (for me at least).

I stand by my opinion. The level of content is a high one. The CS may be terrible, the Community Management does irk me and I don't trust the developers like I once did. The game itself though is a joy.

---------- Post added 2013-01-11 at 10:54 PM ----------



May I ask what flaws aren't I able to see? I'm trying not to take offence but after a moderator suggests that I have blinders on now I'm spoken about like a child who means well but just doesn't get it

I reject the implication that my opinion means less than others simply because i've spent 6 years playing only one MMO and am now thoroughly enjoying my 2nd MMO. If people give subjective negative views (game sucks due to A, B and C) then why when I point out my view (the game is enjoyable due to D, E and F) suddenly the amount of MMO games played comes into play?

The point is that Bioware/EA are offering LESS which benifits no-one but you stand by them making things harder for people. That is why you are wearing blinders.

Nothing good comes of this yet you defend them. Are they paying you to defend them? because otherwise I see no reason to excuse this unneeded cut on the playerbase.

[Edge-]

The point is that Bioware/EA are offering LESS which benifits no-one but you stand by them making things harder for people. That is why you are wearing blinders.

Nothing good comes of this yet you defend them. Are they paying you to defend them? because otherwise I see no reason to excuse this unneeded cut on the playerbase.

He's not defending them. He's simply stating that he finds enjoyment in the game and views it to be of a high quality. What's wrong with that? I know he doesn't agree with everything about the game, but that doesn't mean that he has to hate it. There's no reason that people shouldn't be able to find enjoyment in something simply because others don't like it or because the powers behind it are not all that great.

[Deleted]

The point is that Bioware/EA are offering LESS which benifits no-one but you stand by them making things harder for people. That is why you are wearing blinders.

Nothing good comes of this yet you defend them. Are they paying you to defend them? because otherwise I see no reason to excuse this unneeded cut on the playerbase.

I'm 100% sure you're confusing me with someone else or is that your copy/pasted reply to anyone you disagree with?

Have you even read a word I've written in this thread or did you just pick out a post randomly to reply to?

- On page 5 I agreed with Armourboy that this cutback isn't good.

- Then, stay with me now, the conversation started up about how the quality of content will be in the future.

- I posted that imo the current quality of content is high but that I'm not sure about what will happen after Makeb.

- A moderator took the original step of questioning my opinion based on how many MMO's I've played. In 10 years of forum activity I've yet to see that happen before. Has Azuri questioned anyone else on how many MMO's they've played to validate or not their opinion?

- Kitty chimed in with his opinion of me. I found this troubling as tbh I thought we shared many views in the past. We've butted heads on some points but I always thought the respect was there at least.

- Now we're up to your latest remark. So to clarify, no I don't defend Bioware on the cutting the 1-800. Bioware are not paying me alas and I believe you need to check which post you reply to in future as this one wasn't the right call

[Argroth]

He's not defending them. He's simply stating that he finds enjoyment in the game and views it to be of a high quality. What's wrong with that? I know he doesn't agree with everything about the game, but that doesn't mean that he has to hate it. There's no reason that people shouldn't be able to find enjoyment in something simply because others don't like it or because the powers behind it are not all that great.

The problem is he has accused me of seeing things in only one view and that I am biased. Yet he is the same pretty much in the opposite way. I mention pretty much only the bad while he says i brush off the good yet I say he seems to brush off the bad.

Before he said I ignored a big positive in the patch notes earlier this week and that I only spread my negativity. BUT it seems that positive was misinterpreted and Bioware stated it poorly. What first looked to be the ability to play all characters made turned out to be "we won't delete your extra characters" Was that ever a possibility? I was subbed before and had 10 characters, I came back as preferred and was still able to play all 10. Then the patch came and I can only "activate" 6. Dosn't seem like a positive to me, I just had another restriction slapped on.

So that's why he seems to have blinders on. He seems to dismiss or make light of the bad while sensationalizing any "good" even when they are truely as good as they first seem. To me that seems very defensive of the game to seem like other players problems are trivial.

His earlier post...

Fair enough but in that case I'd assume that for you there is no going back? If BW upset you so many times that this trivial CS landline issue has you mad then surely there's nothing BW can do to ease your pain? BW yesterday did something positive (LOL). Very positive infact and yet you didn't acknowledge it at all but instead raged against 3 or 4 other minor points. Doesn't that show that regardless of what BW do you will continue to add to your sig?

TL;DR The 'I only want to help the game improve' isn't believable anymore if you neglect to ever mention the improvements made and only harp on about the ever decreasing minor issues. My point is, I guess, why are you bothering with the game at this point? It seems to make you more jaded than anything else. You don't even see the few good improvements and just seem to wait for the next minor point to jump all over. Surely by giving positive feedback on those good things BW implement would really help improve the game...instead of saying you want to help but instead only ever posting when something doesn't sit right with you.

P.S. I'm talking to Argroth specifically atm. I'm asking as I just can't relate to the approach you have to 'helping the game improve'.

P.P.S. LOL, my TL;DR was longer than the initial paragraph.

[Deleted]

The problem is he has accused me of seeing things in only one view and that I am biased. Yet he is the same pretty much in the opposite way. I mention pretty much only the bad while he says i brush off the good yet I say he seems to brush off the bad.

Before he said I ignored a big positive in the patch notes earlier this week and that I only spread my negativity. BUT it seems that positive was misinterpreted and Bioware stated it poorly. What first looked to be the ability to play all characters made turned out to be "we won't delete your extra characters" Was that ever a possibility? I was subbed before and had 10 characters, I came back as preferred and was still able to play all 10. Then the patch came and i can only "activate" 6. Dosn't seem like a positive to me, I just had another restriction slapped on.

So that's why he seems to have blinders on. He seems to dismiss or make light of the bad while sensationalizing any "good" even when they are truely as good as they first seem. To me that seems very defensive of the game to seem like other players problems are trivial.

His earlier post...

Not sure what your point is. When I wrote that (9th January) every person on these boards thought the announcement to be correct. Bioware corrected the announcement later that day and I wrote about it saying what a pity it was that they did one good turn only to bugger it up later. Everything I wrote was directed at you specifically and a lot of it became irrelevant once Bioware made that change to their announcement.

I was proved wrong the second Bioware altered the wording to their announcement. Still not seeing your point.

If you list everything you think is wrong with the game I can find you past quotes for most of them where I agree with you. You keep going on as if I think the game is perfect. I don't and never did. I enjoy playing it and I think there many ways it can be improved. I've stated it over and over. If you want to find selective quotes where I disagreed then knock yourself out.

[Armourboy]

I'm 100% sure you're confusing me with someone else or is that your copy/pasted reply to anyone you disagree with?

Have you even read a word I've written in this thread or did you just pick out a post randomly to reply to?

- On page 5 I agreed with Armourboy that this cutback isn't good.

- Then, stay with me now, the conversation started up about how the quality of content will be in the future.

- I posted that imo the current quality of content is high but that I'm not sure about what will happen after Makeb.

- A moderator took the original step of questioning my opinion based on how many MMO's I've played. In 10 years of forum activity I've yet to see that happen before. Has Azuri questioned anyone else on how many MMO's they've played to validate or not their opinion?

- Kitty chimed in with his opinion of me. I found this troubling as tbh I thought we shared many views in the past. We've butted heads on some points but I always thought the respect was there at least.

- Now we're up to your latest remark. So to clarify, no I don't defend Bioware on the cutting the 1-800. Bioware are not paying me alas and I believe you need to check which post you reply to in future as this one wasn't the right call

I wouldn't take offense to Kitty's comment too much, from the outside it didn't come off as a put down in any way. I tend to agree with him that after only playing SWG and TOR you probably don't have a good grasp about whats good and bad about other games. However, that doesn't make your opinion any less valid, and if you are enjoying the game you are playing there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

I was like you at one point though and said I didn't care for the fantasy setting. Then when the NGE hit I figured what the hell I would give them a go. What I found out is that if you are an MMO lover like I am, the setting doesn't really matter after about 15 minutes. Sure its nice to be in a setting that isn't Orcs and Elves, but if the game and story are good I discovered that I could care less. If you haven't given fantasy MMO's a try I would suggest doing so, you might surprise yourself.

I will say though that if most of your experience is from SWG and TOR, you haven't really played a well run MMO yet. Thats not to speak of fun or content, because I would still be playing SWG if it was the Pre-CU version, but how a company actually treats and delivers things to its customers can make for a much better MMO experience.

At this point I would say that Trion ( Rift ) and Blizzard ( WoW) are two examples of how to run your MMO, with SOE and BioWare being examples of how NOT to run your MMO. No company is perfect and they will all mess up on things, the difference is how they handle those mistakes and how the company handles the players reaction. Trion is very good with content releases and communication, Blizzard while slow on content ( although I think at this point its due to the engine and the software) is really good at communicating with its players. SOE and BioWare's communication is just horrid and oddly enough, they get slammed by players world wide.

I look back now and think about SWG, and know I had 3 years of fun, but I realize now that was mainly because of the people in the game. The game itself was pretty dang bad and probably if it hadn't of been my first I would of never put up with it

[Deleted]

1) I wouldn't take offense to Kitty's comment too much, from the outside it didn't come off as a put down in any way. I tend to agree with him that after only playing SWG and TOR you probably don't have a good grasp about whats good and bad about other games. However, that doesn't make your opinion any less valid, and if you are enjoying the game you are playing there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

2) I was like you at one point though and said I didn't care for the fantasy setting. Then when the NGE hit I figured what the hell I would give them a go. What I found out is that if you are an MMO lover like I am, the setting doesn't really matter after about 15 minutes. Sure its nice to be in a setting that isn't Orcs and Elves, but if the game and story are good I discovered that I could care less. If you haven't given fantasy MMO's a try I would suggest doing so, you might surprise yourself.

3) I will say though that if most of your experience is from SWG and TOR, you haven't really played a well run MMO yet. Thats not to speak of fun or content, because I would still be playing SWG if it was the Pre-CU version, but how a company actually treats and delivers things to its customers can make for a much better MMO experience.

At this point I would say that Trion ( Rift ) and Blizzard ( WoW) are two examples of how to run your MMO, with SOE and BioWare being examples of how NOT to run your MMO. No company is perfect and they will all mess up on things, the difference is how they handle those mistakes and how the company handles the players reaction. Trion is very good with content releases and communication, Blizzard while slow on content ( although I think at this point its due to the engine and the software) is really good at communicating with its players. SOE and BioWare's communication is just horrid and oddly enough, they get slammed by players world wide.

4) I look back now and think about SWG, and know I had 3 years of fun, but I realize now that was mainly because of the people in the game. The game itself was pretty dang bad and probably if it hadn't of been my first I would of never put up with it

I'll try to be brief as I've taken up too much space today on these boards already.

1) The thing is I never compare TOR or SWG to other games. I've never said 'TOR has the best X' for example. I simply stated that the quality of content is high. How am I not qualified to say that? I can't mention other MMO's obviously and I never pretend to either.

2) If I get more time I will for sure. The problem is that for now I enjoy playing TOR (along with FarCry 3, ACIII, Hitman Abs, Civ V, Dishonored etc). MMO time is less than last year so I'll raid and do PvP when I can but I doubt I'll ever have time to startup another MMO until TOR dies or becomes unplayable for me. Am secretly hoping Titan is space themed.

3) You don't know me but I've posted here dozens of times and maybe hundreds of times on the official forums bemoaning BW's running of the game. From the red zone cockup, to pre-order dodgyness. From Euro Beta exclusion to Stephen Reid and his policy of misinformation. From server wastelands to info silence. From buggy patches to watered down HK quest content. Pages of posts on crappy space rail system and the simplistic and sad crafting system. Ooops those last 3 were content laments but you see my point. I have never thought BW ran this game well. Regardless of how many MMO's I've played, common sense kicks in on certain subjects.

4) I see your point. I can't agree as if in love with the crafting, space and Beast Mastery you would have had a lot to stay for. The game was buggy. Some things didn't work but it had 3-4 features that were beautiful and addictive. Space PvP ate up hours a week for example. Even playing it I didn't think it was perfect. I never believed it was the best MMO out there. It had however many reasons for me to keep playing it though despite the flaws. To me TOR pales in comparison but there ya go.

[Azuri]

@jamos

I didn't want to come across as a personal attack. Dude you like the game and at the end of the day that's all that matters. Just keep a critical guy on EAware, gamers deserve better then you're getting is the point I'm trying to get across.

[Kelimbror]

Kitty chimed in with his opinion of me. I found this troubling as tbh I thought we shared many views in the past. We've butted heads on some points but I always thought the respect was there at least

May I ask what flaws aren't I able to see? I'm trying not to take offence but after a moderator suggests that I have blinders on now I'm spoken about like a child who means well but just doesn't get it

I didn't talk to you like a child and if you think somehow my comments meant not having respect for you, then that is a lost in translation issue. I do have respect for you as someone who considers many opinions and information and doesn't complete rush to defend any activity. I will say that I think you give far too much credit where it isn't due, but that is your choice and not something I will further criticize.

However, you can't simply reject the notion that your opinion means less because you've only played one MMO and now play a different incarnation of the same IP's MMO. I would love to be able to tell you that your opinion should hold as much weight as anyone's, but there's no logical truth to that. It would be like someone eating a hamburger from McDonald's being asked to comment on all hamburgers. It might be the most delicious thing in the world to you, but that's not really objective. Even your opinion can't be fully formed b/c you've never had any other hamburgers.

Sure you can say it tastes good, but to comment on it's overall quality is something that takes a much larger sample size than a couple of experiences. So respectfully, it's not your fault that your opinion doesn't have as much weight behind it and no one here is dismissing your view or feelings because of that. At least, I'm not. Which is why I said 'what you like is what you like and there's nothing wrong with that'.

You just aren't a very credible source for whether this is quality content or not. And that's not insulting. It's a purely unemotional, factual piece of data. You've played 2 MMOs. Both of them were Star Wars.

So at best I can 100% believe that your opinion is the quality is high, but don't be offended when other people can't take that as an accurate reflection of the product.

---------- Post added 2013-01-11 at 06:59 PM ----------

gamers deserve better then you're getting is the point I'm trying to get across.

Yes.

[Deleted]

@jamos

I didn't want to come across as a personal attack. Dude you like the game and at the end of the day that's all that matters. Just keep a critical guy on EAware, gamers deserve better then you're getting is the point I'm trying to get across.

EDIT: Best if I just agree to disagree on this

---------- Post added 2013-01-12 at 01:15 AM ----------

I didn't talk to you like a child and if you think somehow my comments meant not having respect for you, then that is a lost in translation issue. I do have respect for you as someone who considers many opinions and information and doesn't complete rush to defend any activity. I will say that I think you give far too much credit where it isn't due, but that is your choice and not something I will further criticize.

However, you can't simply reject the notion that your opinion means less because you've only played one MMO and now play a different incarnation of the same IP's MMO. I would love to be able to tell you that your opinion should hold as much weight as anyone's, but there's no logical truth to that. It would be like someone eating a hamburger from McDonald's being asked to comment on all hamburgers. It might be the most delicious thing in the world to you, but that's not really objective. Even your opinion can't be fully formed b/c you've never had any other hamburgers.

Sure you can say it tastes good, but to comment on it's overall quality is something that takes a much larger sample size than a couple of experiences. So respectfully, it's not your fault that your opinion doesn't have as much weight behind it and no one here is dismissing your view or feelings because of that. At least, I'm not. Which is why I said 'what you like is what you like and there's nothing wrong with that'.

You just aren't a very credible source for whether this is quality content or not. And that's not insulting. It's a purely unemotional, factual piece of data. You've played 2 MMOs. Both of them were Star Wars.

So at best I can 100% believe that your opinion is the quality is high, but don't be offended when other people can't take that as an accurate reflection of the product.

EDIT: Best if I just agree to disagree on this

[Herrenos]

That's pretty crap.

BTW if you do have to call them and you don't have an unlimited cell plan, you can get free US calls with a google voice number, which is also free. voice.google.com.

[Kelimbror]

I guess my point is that I'd hope you continue to discuss with/against my opinions based on the merits of the subject...not prejudge what I say with 'ah he's only played 2 MMO's so what does he know'.

It sure didn't sound like your point at all. It sounded like an angry rant when people are telling you that we respect your opinions and how you present your ideas, but on an objective basis your experience isn't really a good way to measure the content put out.

Your specific comments that sparked everything were about the content being a high quality. You have nothing to actually compare it to. Maybe if you could explain how you are coming to that assessment, then your specific argument that the content in the game is high quality would be more accepted. As it stands, the counter argument is that compared to the current shape and history of the market, it drastically pales in comparison. It is less content, more watered down content, and buggier content than just about every game any of us have ever played.

You are also arguing your opinion with a bias. We're objectively arguing based on a large sample of data. It wouldn't matter how much I loved the game, the content hasn't been provided quick enough, complex enough, or bug free enough. That alone means it's not possible to be 'high quality'. And I love all the content the game has. Playing it was awesome. But the quality was poor.

No one is attacking you, belittling you, or discrediting your opinions in conversation. I don't presume that my opinion on the quality of something I have little experience in is very accurate either.

[Armourboy]

I'll try to be brief as I've taken up too much space today on these boards already.

4) I see your point. I can't agree as if in love with the crafting, space and Beast Mastery you would have had a lot to stay for. The game was buggy. Some things didn't work but it had 3-4 features that were beautiful and addictive. Space PvP ate up hours a week for example. Even playing it I didn't think it was perfect. I never believed it was the best MMO out there. It had however many reasons for me to keep playing it though despite the flaws. To me TOR pales in comparison but there ya go.

No reason to be brief, thats what the boards are for

Don't get me wrong, I loved the original game, and there was some things they did very well in it ( although I hated Beastmaster), but overall it was a very poor game. The crafting system and overall economy is still the best I've seen in any MMO. I loved the fact that you weren't hamstrung into one single class, and that there were classes for people that weren't really into fighting. Space Combat was probably more along the quality that the ground game needed to be, it just never was.

Overall though when you look at it, it was a bad game. It was poorly run, poorly developed, buggy beyond belief, straddled with all kinds of database issues, had relatively poor communication and service, and what content it did have was poor. Then to add fuel to the fire, every few years they decided they needed to completely overhaul the combat system, and in doing so just kept making it worse.

[Deleted]

It sure didn't sound like your point at all. It sounded like an angry rant when people are telling you that we respect your opinions and how you present your ideas, but on an objective basis your experience isn't really a good way to measure the content put out.

Your specific comments that sparked everything were about the content being a high quality. You have nothing to actually compare it to. Maybe if you could explain how you are coming to that assessment, then your specific argument that the content in the game is high quality would be more accepted. As it stands, the counter argument is that compared to the current shape and history of the market, it drastically pales in comparison. It is less content, more watered down content, and buggier content than just about every game any of us have ever played.

You are also arguing your opinion with a bias. We're objectively arguing based on a large sample of data. It wouldn't matter how much I loved the game, the content hasn't been provided quick enough, complex enough, or bug free enough. That alone means it's not possible to be 'high quality'. And I love all the content the game has. Playing it was awesome. But the quality was poor.

No one is attacking you, belittling you, or discrediting your opinions in conversation. I don't presume that my opinion on the quality of something I have little experience in is very accurate either.

EDIT: Best if I just agree to disagree on this

---------- Post added 2013-01-12 at 07:35 AM ----------

No reason to be brief, thats what the boards are for

Don't get me wrong, I loved the original game, and there was some things they did very well in it ( although I hated Beastmaster), but overall it was a very poor game. The crafting system and overall economy is still the best I've seen in any MMO. I loved the fact that you weren't hamstrung into one single class, and that there were classes for people that weren't really into fighting. Space Combat was probably more along the quality that the ground game needed to be, it just never was.

Overall though when you look at it, it was a bad game. It was poorly run, poorly developed, buggy beyond belief, straddled with all kinds of database issues, had relatively poor communication and service, and what content it did have was poor. Then to add fuel to the fire, every few years they decided they needed to completely overhaul the combat system, and in doing so just kept making it worse.

Oh I respect your opinion, SOE sure it made it hard to love for some people. Almost everyone who played the game has some angry memory of something SOE did to ignite their ire. I have a bunch myself. Some things I certainly don't miss about that company, lol.

[Armourboy]

EDIT: Best if I just agree to disagree on this

---------- Post added 2013-01-12 at 07:35 AM ----------



Oh I respect your opinion, SOE sure it made it hard to love for some people. Almost everyone who played the game has some angry memory of something SOE did to ignite their ire. I have a bunch myself. Some things I certainly don't miss about that company, lol.

I've held the opinion since then that if you like SOE or ok with them, you have never played one of their games lol

[Psychlon]

I've held the opinion since then that if you like SOE or ok with them, you have never played one of their games lol

True. I wouldn't want to see the riot if Bioware had introduced advanced classes step by step... and by step by step I mean 1-2 months in between.