Hit and Expertise: An Outdated System?

[Primaliron]

I hear you, and I'm not advocating that as a perfect solution. Balancing around haste/crit/mastery alone would be a little simplistic.

But equally, it seems odd that we currently have a system where you can have your gear perfect, upgrade your BiS chestpiece and suddenly find yourself .12% over hit cap with no possible way to reconcile that.

---------- Post added 2013-01-09 at 04:09 PM ----------



That does sound a lot more interesting. I definitely think there is potential in adding a modifier to the stat, at least for a certain percentage over cap.

That being said, then you would have to balance that in a way that didn't result in 15% hit and 2% over cap is the new cap because that additional effect is so desirable.

/sarcasm
You mean like in DS when my Draenei Frost DK was 2% over cap with no escape?

He was my secondary alt so it didn't bother me much, but I know there's others out there who have the problem. Changing the Draenei racial bonus would be great regardless of hit changes.

[dokilar]

the hit stat i think is definately outdated as its been around basically since the beginning. but wasnt expertise added in wotlk? i think there is some usefulness to it and it should actually probably just be merged with hit.

[Kanadei]

/sarcasm
You mean like in DS when my Draenei Frost DK was 2% over cap with no escape?

He was my secondary alt so it didn't bother me much, but I know there's others out there who have the problem. Changing the Draenei racial bonus would be great regardless of hit changes.

Yeah, strangely enough I don't find this as much a problem with the expertise from Troll racial as a hunter.

That being said, my hunter isn't very geared yet. Hit/Expertise caps on my Tankadin annoyed me a fair bit.

[Deleted]

Changing the Draenei racial bonus would be great regardless of hit changes.

Should be changed to +1 mastery point.

[Kanadei]

the hit stat i think is definately outdated as its been around basically since the beginning. but wasnt expertise added in wotlk? i think there is some usefulness to it and it should actually probably just be merged with hit.

Expertise was added to compensate for lack of weapon skills, it's not necessarily a "new stat" more of a streamlining of the old concept.

---------- Post added 2013-01-09 at 04:17 PM ----------

Should be changed to +1 mastery point.

+1 point?

As in, your racial provides 1 point of mastery rating :P ?

[Deleted]

This is more the kind of discussion I was looking to foster. Let's not get bogged down in "removed? NO!! What do you want easy mode or something?!"

Like def cap, hit and expertise will be phased out. Healers are already hit capped so it is merely a burden to get your hit cap and work around it. Its clunky that everything above the cap is wasted, and it creates klunky min-maxing where a spec like affliction is supposed to not get hit capped (I bet you Blizz did not sim that part). It isn't a big problem to have a little bit too much mastery, but it is a big problem to not have enough hit/expertise (depends on spec/class tho), or too much. The haste caps themselves is more than enough to worry about but at least there wasting the stat is a lot harder.

An alternative? We don't need more. The newest addition of VP gear upgrading items is a much more dynamic, theorycrafting kind of addition. Unfortunately its also grindy (but does make sense in the subscription-based model of WoW). On top of that, PvP players got PvP power and PvP resilience to work with nowadays. If anything, we need less variations of min-maxing. Gemming is a compelling one because it involves choice, but enchanting is mostly just sticking the right one on it. Those who say gemming is same: as a former spriest I can tell you that's not the case in relation to the haste cap, and PvP-wise I can imagine offensive and defensive style. Of all the current min-maxing things on gear the one I dislike most is reforging. Although the new mount is useful, my goodness is it expensive...

Balance stats make gearing and reforging a kind of Jenga — without them, it's just a matter of dumping the least valuable stat or avoiding certain pieces entirely. Boring.

Granted, the massive stat allotments at the current iLevel make overages more difficult to reconcile. And caster Hit levels could be argued as excessive.

A sliding scale for reforging will work in general, and casters could either receive a unique balance stat or be designed around 7.5% (or equivalent) only.

Good point your first remark. I must say Blizzard did a good job on differentiating the stats between at least casters and also made it for warlocks easier to play different specs (mastery being always best secondary stat). The affliction hit rating aspect is a small nuisance in this regard.

As for achieving the balance. When they release a new way to min-max (like say reforging) people need to learn to work with it. Eventually there's tools to do the maths and it is just a matter of running the tool. Its only logical people seek a way to automate to do the maths for them (not all enjoy or are proficient in maths). But at that point it becomes a chore, a boring thing you gotta do, the novelty wore off, etc. How to solve? What Blizz has been doing every expansion is introducing a new way to min-max the character.

I got bad news though. Mastery allows you to do "things your class is good at better". It pretty much denotes Blizzard was out of ideas for a new stat. For Mastery is the type of stat you'd introduce last in a game. Blizzard won't introduce a new stat. They will phase out hit/expertise and that's it. Blizz will however introduce other new stuff like new abilities (always does well) and a 12th class before WoW goes in hibernation mode but that is a different beast.

[Deleted]

Expertise was added to compensate for lack of weapon skills, it's not necessarily a "new stat" more of a streamlining of the old concept.

---------- Post added 2013-01-09 at 04:17 PM ----------



+1 point?

As in, your racial provides 1 point of mastery rating :P ?

No, 1 point of mastery equals 600 mastery rating at 90.

[Primaliron]

It's all a boring outdated fun tax system. It's too binary, you either need it, or you don't. It's extremely rare that any spec doesn't want it capped, you go for the cap then you forget it.

It's just like the resist gear of old. You either needed it, or you had it, the switch flipped in 2 directions only.

No break points, no value beyond cap, ect. Hit and Expertise are boring stats.

It's not entirely binary. The closer you are to cap the exponentially less valuable it becomes. The problem is that downhill slope is so close to the cap as to make it effectively binary when stat allocation is so high. The other problem is that capping is so useful to keep up minor buff/debuff effects or to cause procs.

Swing timers could be decreased (making swings more often) for melee and cast times reduced to make RNG less of an issue. Of course then caster mobility will have to be addressed. In all cases damage can be increased if RNG isn't much of an issue. In those cases though Burst will need to be evaluated.

None of these obstacles are insurmountable, but they would require effort and even when implemented classes will play differently and players would have to be ready for that.

[Last Starfighter]

People need to stop using the word "outdated" for "things I don't like". Stats aren't fun. Playing your character is. But so is maximizing your character. And stats fall into that. It's the collective. What is boring is having less and less to worry about.

[Primaliron]

Should be changed to +1 mastery point.

This would be more than fine with me.... not sure why I like the squid-faced blueberry spacegoats but I do. Probably because they are so clearly a rip off of the Minbari from B5.

[Deleted]

People need to stop using the word "outdated" for "things I don't like". Stats aren't fun. Playing your character is. But so is maximizing your character. And stats fall into that. It's the collective. What is boring is having less and less to worry about.

There's absolutely no fun in having to run to the Ethereal everytime one gets a new item that changes one's hit/spirit rating, it's tedious as hell.

[Egitel]

Well, judging from a Tweet from GC awhile back, Hit and Expertise may be going away eventually anyway. I can't remember what he was replying to but he said something like "There was a time where I would argue that hit and expertise made for interesting stats, but I'm becoming less convinced of that."

[Last Starfighter]

There's absolutely no fun in having to run to the Ethereal everytime one gets a new item that changes one's hit/spirit rating, it's tedious as hell.

If you're worried about tedium, reforgelite takes any tedium out of it. One click and it's done. And what about caps and threshold? You still have to run to the reforger.

[Najja]

What they need to see is that managing your stats is not fun, it won't ever be fun. It'd be far more interesting if there was a talent system that really let you choose what attacks, procs and other effects you got to use.

[Last Starfighter]

What they need to see is that managing your stats is not fun, it won't ever be fun. It'd be far more interesting if there was a talent system that really let you choose what attacks, procs and other effects you got to use.

Stats are fun. When you get a piece of gear, should it have no stats? And anyone that says that they don't get excited when they see a trinket that has a 3.5k main stat proc on it is full of shit. People like seeing increased stats on their gear. Stats on gear will always change. Talents will change once every few years. And that isn't fun.

[Deleted]

Stats are fun. When you get a piece of gear, should it have no stats? And anyone that says that they don't get excited when they see a trinket that has a 3.5k main stat proc on it is full of shit. People like seeing increased stats on their gear. Stats on gear will always change. Talents will change once every few years. And that isn't fun.

A proc isn't even reforgable, and a main stat or even proc is hardly comparable to hit rating. Everytime I see hit, spirit or crit or even both on an item I'm not excited at all.

[Viscoe]

I have mained a hunter since BC and the addition of expertise to my character with MoP has made me really, really hate it and just wish it rolled into hit. Make everyone get a 15% hit cap if it's what it takes, but juggling two stats that do the exact same thing is not boring, challenging, or fun. It's fucking annoying.

I mean, I can see the value in what they're trying to do ("I really would like this piece of gear, but I lose too much hit, so let me think about how I can get it/lament about why I will not be able to have it") but when the stat that is making you choose what gear you want is divided into two separate stats, it's too much to juggle on the fly.

I can also say that when a piece drops that is hit/expertise, my stomach sinks to my toes. It almost feels like I'm not upgrading at all because I am not getting any "fun" stats and I can almost feel the padlock on that piece because the stats it provides are too valuable to give up. It's just so annoying.

[Last Starfighter]

A proc isn't even reforgable, and a main stat or even proc is hardly comparable to hit rating. Everytime I see hit, spirit or crit or even both on an item I'm not excited at all.

I'm using it as an example of a stat and people get excited over seeing stat increases. "Managing stats" is hardly a thing anymore considering wow reforge site and reforgelite.

So should there just be Int, spirit, strength, agility, and stamina on gear? And you may not get excited about seeing crit or hit, but I'm sure you're excited to see your main stat increase a new piece of gear.

And what Blizzard needs to do is the stat crunch next expac. All stats are getting out of hand.

[Deleted]

If you're worried about tedium, reforgelite takes any tedium out of it. One click and it's done. And what about caps and threshold? You still have to run to the reforger.

Perhaps, but it is a huge gold sink. On top of that, reforgelite has a bug in the hit cap which put me when I went to shadow 3% under the hit cap (12%) for some reason. As shadow it told me to reforge nearly everything to crit.

Stats are fun.

Isn't that subjective? Suggestive? Biased?

When you get a piece of gear, should it have no stats?

That's the complete opposite. I say: less is more. Make the stats we have at least relevant, and don't have a stat which is completely useless at cap (haste caps work different, they have plateaus; some classes have spikes there). It is also very odd a DPS and a tank need to get hit cap, but a healer is auto hit capped.

And anyone that says that they don't get excited when they see a trinket that has a 3.5k main stat proc on it is full of shit. People like seeing increased stats on their gear. Stats on gear will always change.

Oh yeah? I remember being more excited about the trinket dropping with the awesome 10k shadow bolts, or the one weapon with the awesome frontal cone heals... As a healer there isn't much I procs I actually enjoy anyway, but at the very least I wouldn't want some kind of int-based proc like Will of the Emperor trinket.

Talents will change once every few years. And that isn't fun.

There's more to a new patch than talents. New abilities, for example. New stat weight, new talents, new abilities; each of them has limited longevity. For some, the new stat is boring after 1 month, for others the new talent is boring after 1 month, and for yet others the new ability is boring after 1 month, while for others they'll have 2 years of fun tinkering with all these new mechanisms.

[Najja]

Stats are fun. When you get a piece of gear, should it have no stats? And anyone that says that they don't get excited when they see a trinket that has a 3.5k main stat proc on it is full of shit. People like seeing increased stats on their gear. Stats on gear will always change. Talents will change once every few years. And that isn't fun.

Wow take what I said and go 180 degrees the other way why don't you? First of all a proc is always more exciting then just having a static stat increase, its the idea of suddenly getting a boost that makes it more fun. Secondly saying that gear should have no stats is just stupid, no one said that, lets stick to things that actually make sense. Personally I'd rather have an item that procs for X effect then an item for the same slot that is just +Y Dex. Touching on seeing a drop I would have to say that many people are far more excited by the fact that A an item they wanted droped and B that its an upgrade then the fact that its 25 more of their main stat. Also, screw main stat boost trinkets. I honestly hate them, give me a shit ton of haste or crit any day. Much more fun to start attacking faster or see more big numbers fly up on the screen.