View Poll Results: High Elves: Do you want them?

Voters
938. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes.

    283 30.17%
  • No. We don't need any more races.

    102 10.87%
  • No. I'd rather have new races.

    385 41.04%
  • I don't care.

    168 17.91%
Page 22 of 30 FirstFirst ...
12
20
21
22
23
24
... LastLast
  1. #421
    Pit Lord Skorpionss's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Bucharest, Romania
    Posts
    2,293
    Personally I would want them... but aren't they kind of extinct almost there's like ~25k blood elves around(according to wowwiki)... I don't see how they could become a playable faction with those numbers really...

  2. #422
    Old God Nindoriel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    10,792
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhaktor View Post
    I appreciate what you're trying to say and like I mentioned, I understand its something a few people feel very strongly about - which is why I'm trying to be nice as I don't want to get anyone's back up

    I did also however try to get across my view that they are the same thing - I don't view Twilight's Hammer Orcs as different to Horde Orcs, they just believe different things. That's the kind of difference I personally see between High and Blood elves. Just to put it out there, I am horde but my favorite race is Draenei male. I would love to be able to play them Horde side but its just not something I think would be a good idea. (You probably think i'm lying about the Draenei thing, but I just love power-tops!)

    Anyway, my sympathies go out to your ilk but I just think it would be a pointless/bad move.
    They're not the same thing. In a roleplay sense it makes a difference if you're playing High Elf or Blood Elf. And even if it was the same, some people still want to play them on Alliance side. To say "they're the same" really doesn't do anything.

  3. #423
    what people keep forgeting is that high elves dont have just blue eyes. high elves have green eyes, blue eyes, purple eyes, silver eyes, gold eyes, red eyes, almost any color.

    the difference is blood elves have FIRE for eyes. blood elves dont have green eyes THEY HAVE GREEN FEL FIRE FOR EYES O-O

    but still besides that the physical differences are moot to near non existent (high elves are slightly taller and have paler skin and hair colors thats about it)

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-10 at 07:13 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Skorpionss View Post
    Personally I would want them... but aren't they kind of extinct almost there's like ~25k blood elves around(according to wowwiki)... I don't see how they could become a playable faction with those numbers really...
    theres more high elves than gnomes or trolls
    "I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
    "so what do we do?" "well jack, you stand there and say 'gee rocket raccoon I'm so glad you brought that Unfeasibly large cannon with you..' and i go like this BRAKKA BRAKKA BRAKKA" - Rocket Raccoon

    FC: 3437-3046-3552

  4. #424
    Warchief TheDangerZone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Burt Reynolds' stache
    Posts
    2,198
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    While Ogre would also make sense for the Horde to gain.... I don't think Worgen...... they pretty much hate anything to do with the UD or Forsaken..

    Akama is still a major part of the lore, especially in BT. Giving that whole reputation to the Horde would be silly...
    I still think that some Worgen faction could be desperate and desilutionated enough to strike a deal; Godfrey did so (at least for a while). But this is just a matter of opinion.

    About the Ashtongue Deathsworn and Akama; gameplay and lore segregation is an option. Horde characters still have their Kirin Tor rep regardless of the recent events; that's why the new faction is called "Kirin Tor Offensive"

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-11 at 12:25 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    what people keep forgeting is that high elves dont have just blue eyes. high elves have green eyes, blue eyes, purple eyes, silver eyes, gold eyes, red eyes, almost any color.

    the difference is blood elves have FIRE for eyes. blood elves dont have green eyes THEY HAVE GREEN FEL FIRE FOR EYES O-O

    but still besides that the physical differences are moot to near non existent (high elves are slightly taller and have paler skin and hair colors thats about it)
    Yeah, but the high elven blue eyes is just a shortcut to diferentiate them from belves, representing arcane magic. Maybe if helves did become playable, their skins could have less glowy eyes and just show normal eye colors, but as explained, is just a visual shortcut and I can live with it.

    Also, where does this idea that helves are taller, paler and fairier than blood elves come? sauce?

    theres more high elves than gnomes or trolls
    Maybe even bilgewater goblins; they are just the bunch that survived a shipwreck! Population should not even be considered a factor at this point really.

  5. #425
    Quote Originally Posted by Amonra View Post
    I still think that some Worgen faction could be desperate and desilutionated enough to strike a deal; Godfrey did so (at least for a while). But this is just a matter of opinion.

    About the Ashtongue Deathsworn and Akama; gameplay and lore segregation is an option. Horde characters still have their Kirin Tor rep regardless of the recent events; that's why the new faction is called "Kirin Tor Offensive"[COLOR="red"]
    I feel like you are wishing a little too hard about the human/worgens wanting to change factions lol.. I have never seen anything in the lore or game that could ever support this. This would be like me saying trolls might change factions, because they are unhappy with Garrosh... Or some UD might change factions, because they are annoyed at Sylvanas bitchyness, and just want back with their live counterparts...

    If Akama were a Horde, it would mess up a huge part of BT. Again, I haven't seen much in the way of lore or gameplay saying he might join the Horde.. Unlike High Elves, which are literally already in the Alliance.
    When you call yourself an Indian or a Muslim or a Christian or a European, or anything else, you are being violent. Do you see why it is violent? Because you are separating yourself from the rest of mankind. When you separate yourself by belief, by nationality, by tradition, it breeds violence. So a man who is seeking to understand violence does not belong to any country, to any religion, to any political party or partial system; he is concerned with the total understanding of mankind.

  6. #426
    Warchief Voyager's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Soviet Union
    Posts
    2,224
    Garrosh could introduce the Eredar into the Horde, though Vol'jin and the others would probably veto it.

  7. #427
    Quote Originally Posted by Amonra View Post
    I still think that some Worgen faction could be desperate and desilutionated enough to strike a deal; Godfrey did so (at least for a while). But this is just a matter of opinion.

    About the Ashtongue Deathsworn and Akama; gameplay and lore segregation is an option. Horde characters still have their Kirin Tor rep regardless of the recent events; that's why the new faction is called "Kirin Tor Offensive"

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-11 at 12:25 AM ----------



    Yeah, but the high elven blue eyes is just a shortcut to diferentiate them from belves, representing arcane magic. Maybe if helves did become playable, their skins could have less glowy eyes and just show normal eye colors, but as explained, is just a visual shortcut and I can live with it.

    Also, where does this idea that helves are taller, paler and fairier than blood elves come? sauce?



    Maybe even bilgewater goblins; they are just the bunch that survived a shipwreck! Population should not even be considered a factor at this point really.
    the rpg books said fel taint slightly stunted their growth and darkened their skin and hair (thats why fel blood elves have deep red skin)

    i think blizzard also confirmed it in a lore q&a a while back when asked why some blood elves dont have blue eyes even if they didnt suck out fel magic

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-10 at 07:57 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
    Garrosh could introduce the Eredar into the Horde, though Vol'jin and the others would probably veto it.
    the eredar are the most evil corrupt race in the universe....
    "I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
    "so what do we do?" "well jack, you stand there and say 'gee rocket raccoon I'm so glad you brought that Unfeasibly large cannon with you..' and i go like this BRAKKA BRAKKA BRAKKA" - Rocket Raccoon

    FC: 3437-3046-3552

  8. #428
    Warchief TheDangerZone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Burt Reynolds' stache
    Posts
    2,198
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    I feel like you are wishing a little too hard about the human/worgens wanting to change factions lol.. I have never seen anything in the lore or game that could ever support this. This would be like me saying trolls might change factions, because they are unhappy with Garrosh... Or some UD might change factions, because they are annoyed at Sylvanas bitchyness, and just want back with their live counterparts...

    If Akama were a Horde, it would mess up a huge part of BT. Again, I haven't seen much in the way of lore or gameplay saying he might join the Horde.. Unlike High Elves, which are literally already in the Alliance.
    Hey, i'm just saying its not entirely outside the realm of possibility, and I think it's pretty obvious that this whole thread is about speculation and tinhatting. We already had a traditionally alliance race coss over the the horde once: the high elves as blood elves. So it happened once, it can happen again.

    Above all, I just find the idea pf a pact with the "devil" and the desire to return "home" interesting plot ideas.

    And Akama joining horde (for whatever reason imaginable) doesn't retroactively affects BT. Why would it? it's the past.

    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    the rpg books said fel taint slightly stunted their growth and darkened their skin and hair (thats why fel blood elves have deep red skin)

    i think blizzard also confirmed it in a lore q&a a while back when asked why some blood elves dont have blue eyes even if they didnt suck out fel magic[COLOR="red"]
    Indeed, in a Q&A blizzard explained it:

    "The situation regarding blood elf eyes is, in fact, extremely similar to that of the green skin of orcs: just being around heavy use of fel magic turned the eyes of the blood elves green. You could be the most pious of priests or most outdoorsy of Farstriders, chances are, if you were a high elf in Quel'Thalas or Outland following the Third War, you were around fel energies, and your eyes would turn green. Like the orcs' skin color, such an effect would take a very long time to wear off. Fel magic works a bit like radiation in this sense; it permeates the area and seeps into anything in the vicinity. Anything near a source of fel magic shows signs of slight corruption, it just so happens that high elves and orcs manifest it in a very visual way."

    In a behind the scenes video they reveal that Silvermoon city, and pretty much all thalasian architecture was held together by magic (pretty much the reason why everything floats) with the lost of the Sunwell, the buildings fell apart. Now the reconstructed areas are powered by demonic energy (starts from 4:35). As it is, Quel'thalas was dripping with fel energies; thus all blood elves got a case of the fel eyes. Basically its radiation.

    About the physical changes, since the RPG's are not considered canon; that's not a valid source. We just don't know the time tables for physical alterations under fel exposure. I guess their skin could look redder from the fel exposure as well, but that would mean high elves where always very pale? I guess.
    Last edited by TheDangerZone; 2013-01-11 at 01:41 AM.

  9. #429
    Quote Originally Posted by Amonra View Post
    Hey, i'm just saying its not entirely outside the realm of possibility, and I think it's pretty obvious that this whole thread is about speculation and tinhatting. We already had a traditionally alliance race coss over the the horde once: the high elves as blood elves. So it happened once, it can happen again.

    Above all, I just find the idea pf a pact with the "devil" and the desire to return "home" interesting plot ideas.

    And Akama joining horde (for whatever reason imaginable) doesn't retroactively affects BT. Why would it? it's the past.



    Indeed, in a Q&A blizzard explained it:

    "The situation regarding blood elf eyes is, in fact, extremely similar to that of the green skin of orcs: just being around heavy use of fel magic turned the eyes of the blood elves green. You could be the most pious of priests or most outdoorsy of Farstriders, chances are, if you were a high elf in Quel'Thalas or Outland following the Third War, you were around fel energies, and your eyes would turn green. Like the orcs' skin color, such an effect would take a very long time to wear off. Fel magic works a bit like radiation in this sense; it permeates the area and seeps into anything in the vicinity. Anything near a source of fel magic shows signs of slight corruption, it just so happens that high elves and orcs manifest it in a very visual way."

    In a behind the scenes video they reveal that Silvermoon city, and pretty much all thalasian architecture was held together by magic (pretty much the reason why everything floats) with the lost of the Sunwell, the buildings fell apart. Now the reconstructed areas are powered by demonic energy (starts from 4:35). As it is, Quel'thalas was dripping with fel energies; thus all blood elves got a case of the fel eyes. Basically its radiation.

    Since the RPG's are not considered canon; that's not a valid source. We just don't know the time tables for physical alterations under fel exposure.
    I guess You are correct on many points here. if it were up to me, it would be Ogres/High Elves.
    When you call yourself an Indian or a Muslim or a Christian or a European, or anything else, you are being violent. Do you see why it is violent? Because you are separating yourself from the rest of mankind. When you separate yourself by belief, by nationality, by tradition, it breeds violence. So a man who is seeking to understand violence does not belong to any country, to any religion, to any political party or partial system; he is concerned with the total understanding of mankind.

  10. #430
    Warchief Voyager's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Soviet Union
    Posts
    2,224
    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    the eredar are the most evil corrupt race in the universe....
    Naa, I think the Nathrezim hold that title, and the Pit Lords are probably rank 2.

  11. #431
    Quote Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
    Good idea. The Amani join the Horde, 40% of the Blood Elves get pissed about their archenemy being in the Horde now and choose to rejoin their High Elf brethren.
    Now see, this is actually some reasonable and well-founded thinking here. I mean sure I know there's already High Elves in the Alliance, but there's so incredibly few of them; this little backstory would easily answer any questions of "Well why are there suddenly enough that they're playable" and it'd be easy for players that wanted to just say their High Elf was one of the ones that stuck around the first time.
    Of course, just leaving the Horde wouldn't get rid of their green eyes, so it may not be quite the best response, but if eye color ended up being an option instead of them all being blue, then it'd be fine. I can tell some people would still be pissed cuz they wouldn't really be "High Elves," just Blood Elves leaving the Horde, but like I said, it would open it up for those that care about it (mostly RPers to begin with) to squeeze their "true" High Elves in.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-10 at 09:37 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Thaladhrun View Post
    Dark iron dwarves, as an example. Perhaps some worgen might defect to Horde. Maybe the Broken will join it. Who knows, there are options out there.
    Also the Dark Irons are officially a part of the Alliance now, what with the Council of the Three Hammers (or was that the old one and the current one has a new name?) being a thing. They're the whole reason Dwarves can be Mages and Warlocks now, lorewise. I get that they tend to be more on the devious or evil side, but them quickly joining up with the Alliance, only for some or all to defect just a few years later, seems kinda of nonsensical. Especially since they've actually got the strongest claim for the Ironforge throne right now with Moira's son.

  12. #432
    I just can't understand this whole "They are stealing one of our races, we should steal one back!' Attitudes. I didn't get it pre BC when the same attitude was shown about Blood Elves going to the Horde side. Blizzard had released the new Horde faction waaaaaaay before the Alliances Draenei.

    -They get our Elves, we better get one of their races!
    "SHUT UP, WE AREN'T GETTING ALLIANCE UNDEAD"

    Seriously? You don't own Blood Elves, and besides, High Elves AREN'T Blood Elves! So cut the "WE WANT HORDE DWARVES" crap out! It makes NO sense, and is ridiculous. In this hypothetical, we aren't "stealing" anything, so quit plotting about what race to "steal."
    When you call yourself an Indian or a Muslim or a Christian or a European, or anything else, you are being violent. Do you see why it is violent? Because you are separating yourself from the rest of mankind. When you separate yourself by belief, by nationality, by tradition, it breeds violence. So a man who is seeking to understand violence does not belong to any country, to any religion, to any political party or partial system; he is concerned with the total understanding of mankind.

  13. #433
    You may not get it, but that would be the majority player reaction. Most players aren't that into the lore or roleplay, so to the average viewer, they'd see Alliance getting High Elves and frankly be pissed off they were getting a "copy" of a race while the Horde would be getting an entirely new one. "Give Horde X version of Y race" would be an incredibly common response, one made out of jealousy and basically wanting Horde to get something "recycled," too. The fact that so many people are replying along those lines here proves that.
    Even though it may be incorrect thinking, Blizzard knows just how common it is and they can't really combat it without making High Elves something they're not, i.e. drastically changing them physically, altering their lore, etc. as that would only piss off the people who wanted them in the first place. It's sort of a no-win situation for them, adding them as an entire new race, instead of a sub-race. I would assume we won't see them added ever, not unless we ever get sub-races, for that exact reasoning.

  14. #434
    Quote Originally Posted by Scunosi View Post
    You may not get it, but that would be the majority player reaction. Most players aren't that into the lore or roleplay, so to the average viewer, they'd see Alliance getting High Elves and frankly be pissed off they were getting a "copy" of a race while the Horde would be getting an entirely new one. "Give Horde X version of Y race" would be an incredibly common response, one made out of jealousy and basically wanting Horde to get something "recycled," too. The fact that so many people are replying along those lines here proves that.
    Even though it may be incorrect thinking, Blizzard knows just how common it is and they can't really combat it without making High Elves something they're not, i.e. drastically changing them physically, altering their lore, etc. as that would only piss off the people who wanted them in the first place. It's sort of a no-win situation for them, adding them as an entire new race, instead of a sub-race. I would assume we won't see them added ever, not unless we ever get sub-races, for that exact reasoning.
    Sadly I agree. The new races will be something weird, crazy or foreign, and pretty much a huge stretch lore wise. Back then BElves were announced many months prior to the release of BC, I think even a whole year in fact. I remember a few months after the BC info was released, it was April Fools, and in typical Blizzard fashion they pranked us. They released the Alliance new race as "Wisps" and this further enraged the Alliance members that were already rabble-rousing because the Horde was "stealing our Elves" ....

    For me, I hope Blizz can see past whining and make it happen. I would prefer a "recycle" over something out of left field...
    When you call yourself an Indian or a Muslim or a Christian or a European, or anything else, you are being violent. Do you see why it is violent? Because you are separating yourself from the rest of mankind. When you separate yourself by belief, by nationality, by tradition, it breeds violence. So a man who is seeking to understand violence does not belong to any country, to any religion, to any political party or partial system; he is concerned with the total understanding of mankind.

  15. #435
    Stood in the Fire reffan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Katowice, Upper Silesia
    Posts
    371
    I still think that adding high elves as playable race is stupid, yet, I have an idea which I think would make this possible and rational lore-wise.

    Hero races: High Elf for Alliance, Mag'har Orc for Horde.

    So both factions will get uncorrupted versions of existing races, which are few in number. Also, from gameplay side, they will be just and only reskins.

    As Mag'har Orc, you can start in instanced version of Nagrand at level 68. Story should be related to Garrosh Hellscream and his journey from Nagrand to Northrend. Whole storyline shall end at level 70, so after completing it you would instantly go to Northrend, to aid your Warchief Garrosh.
    Classes: Warrior, Shaman, Rogue, Hunter.

    As High Elf you will start in Allerian Stronghold, and this quest line will introduce Alleria Windrunner into a game. According to lore, you will be high elf which participated in Second War and is returning to Azeroth. You will be messenger, and your task is carry a letter from Alleria to her sister, Vareesa Windrunner, leader of the Silver Convenant.
    Classes: Warrior, Hunter, Priest, Mage


    There should be very looooong and expensive questline leading to unlocking these races, so they will be very rare (as population for borth is not too big), unique.

    What do you think about this?

  16. #436
    After some consideration, I think I've changed my mind on this one. The Pandaren being allowed to choose sides still kind of irks me, but if one race can split into two factions based on purely ideological and ethical differences (on an individual level no less), I don't see why the 'true' High Elves aren't considered sufficiently different enough from their fel-tainted counterparts to warrant a much more clearer distinction, especially since they already are on opposing sides.

    The two big issues, population size, and their similar likeness, are more easily routed then they first appear.

    Their dwindling and pitiful population count is problematic lore wise, but I'm not sure if that's necessarily relevant as far as being a playable race is concerned. For instance, there aren't tens of thousands of orc npcs in the entire game, yet the lore census lists roughly that many of them living in Orgrimmar alone. For High Elves, the player's character would simply be one of the remaining few, and regardless of their actual lore numbers, them having a stronger presence in game would not contradict it.

    The two elves look nearly identical - for now. If added as a playable race, I imagine Blizzard would create brand new models for them, which would no doubt have a "healthier" look. High Elves fight their magical addiction - Blood Elves evidently choose to give in. It's unclear if they intend to include Draenei and Blood Elves in the new character model update in the future, though probably not since they're not quite as bad looking as the vanilla's are. Thus, the new High Elves would look much different than you would expect, even if they would still be similar. The 'blond hair, blue eyes' motif that goes through one's mind when you think of them is not at all what they're limited to.

    The architecture of the high elves is gorgeous, but not unique - at least not entirely. However, despite it's obvious similarities with that of the Sin'dorei, the different color schemes, and tweaks to the structural accents would render this point against them almost moot. Plus, this kind of thing tends to evolve, so their structures could end up looking entirely different anyway. A newly rekindled bond with the Alliance could also inspire a new look to their buildings, and armaments, as could the re-invigoration of the Sunwell.

    So with all that being said, I don't think it would be as samey as I first assumed, although I can't deny having two factions of the same race would be weird - just as it is weird in the case of the Pandaren, who don't even have any physical discrepancies to differentiate them. The only question remaining then is: If the High Elves were added to the Alliance, then what would the Horde get? There's only one race I can think of...

  17. #437
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    I just can't understand this whole "They are stealing one of our races, we should steal one back!' Attitudes. I didn't get it pre BC when the same attitude was shown about Blood Elves going to the Horde side. Blizzard had released the new Horde faction waaaaaaay before the Alliances Draenei.

    -They get our Elves, we better get one of their races!
    "SHUT UP, WE AREN'T GETTING ALLIANCE UNDEAD"

    Seriously? You don't own Blood Elves, and besides, High Elves AREN'T Blood Elves! So cut the "WE WANT HORDE DWARVES" crap out! It makes NO sense, and is ridiculous. In this hypothetical, we aren't "stealing" anything, so quit plotting about what race to "steal."
    whoa somebody has a helf stuck up theyr ..... where has anyone sayed anything even remotely like horde owns belfs or that anyone stealing anything from anywhere.... like i sayed before ur just such a huge high elf fan boy that u would argue against anyone who would make a case against them being playable race.

  18. #438
    lol horde would probably get a shaft stick, and get leper gnomes.

    but the only way i see fair is horde gets an altered alliance race, if the alliance gets an altered horde race.

    On a side note, it would be really awesome if for one expansion blizzard let the players vote for what race they wanted.

  19. #439
    Quote Originally Posted by vamonos View Post
    whoa somebody has a helf stuck up theyr ..... where has anyone sayed anything even remotely like horde owns belfs or that anyone stealing anything from anywhere.... like i sayed before ur just such a huge high elf fan boy that u would argue against anyone who would make a case against them being playable race.
    Please get out of this thread. You have done nothing but throw insults and haven;t added anything constructive at all.

    The funny thing is, someone has said that LITERALLY IN THIS THREAD. So stop lying and crying. I actually only have 1 Elf of either race on my roster of toons. HElves have just been in this game since WC2. I would like to see them added because random-out-of-left-field-new-race.

    You also haven't made a case against anything. Not to mention "argue" is what you do in a thread, specifically asking for differing opinions. Not to mention, many people have made great points in FAVOR of High Elves, and you literally do the same thing you are whining about. Instead of making any type of counter point, you just repeat "u r a fanboi" over and over, as if having High Elves in the game would physically hurt you. So you stay on Horde side, worry about Horde things and hush, child.
    When you call yourself an Indian or a Muslim or a Christian or a European, or anything else, you are being violent. Do you see why it is violent? Because you are separating yourself from the rest of mankind. When you separate yourself by belief, by nationality, by tradition, it breeds violence. So a man who is seeking to understand violence does not belong to any country, to any religion, to any political party or partial system; he is concerned with the total understanding of mankind.

  20. #440
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    Please get out of this thread. You have done nothing but throw insults and haven;t added anything constructive at all.

    The funny thing is, someone has said that LITERALLY IN THIS THREAD. So stop lying and crying. I actually only have 1 Elf of either race on my roster of toons. HElves have just been in this game since WC2. I would like to see them added because random-out-of-left-field-new-race.

    You also haven't made a case against anything. Not to mention "argue" is what you do in a thread, specifically asking for differing opinions. Not to mention, many people have made great points in FAVOR of High Elves, and you literally do the same thing you are whining about. Instead of making any type of counter point, you just repeat "u r a fanboi" over and over, as if having High Elves in the game would physically hurt you. So you stay on Horde side, worry about Horde things and hush, child.
    talk and more talk made me lol so hard. ur the one crying here ur the one not posting constructive points just repeating same things over and over. why dont u start proving those points and talking less ....
    Last edited by vamonos; 2013-01-11 at 02:00 PM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •