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  1. #1

    WOW subscriptions model

    Did you know that WoW's weekly revenue from subscriptions ...is more than the complete yearly revenue of its closest competitor ?

    Even more: one day of WoW subscriptions = the total expected retail profit of GW2 in 2013 ... (250k copies retail x 15 dollars profit).

    Reasoning: nothing beats a subscription model. For those dreaming of a free to play WoW.

  2. #2
    Did you know WoW gets subsription-style payment from under half of it's customers? Still prolly more than any other game makes though

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    Did you know that WoW's weekly revenue from subscriptions ...is more than the complete yearly revenue of its closest competitor ?
    Given that WoW has ~4/5 million subscriptions in the West and the contribution of China is miniscule, that would mean that the "closest competitor", whoever that may be, has ~80/100k or less. That's obvious nonsense; Rift and SWTOR are certainly above that mark, even Everquest and UO might still be.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by thevoicefromwithin View Post
    Given that WoW has ~4/5 million subscriptions in the West and the contribution of China is miniscule, that would mean that the "closest competitor", whoever that may be, has ~80/100k or less. That's obvious nonsense; Rift and SWTOR are certainly above that mark, even Everquest and UO might still be.
    SWTOR is free to play and Rift has 18 servers worlwide. That's a 82% loss in servers compared to its launching first months.

    The only one coming close is a non fantasy mmo EvE with 40 times less revenue in the last 2 years.

    The rest went free to play and rolling very low on revenue compared to a subscription based system ( be that through western payments or cell phone like payments (china)).

    This simply proves that going free to play is not even an option, f2p is more like a last survival mode for extended mmorpg play and to be avoided at all costs...

    Something this industry doesn't realise yet.
    Last edited by BenBos; 2013-01-03 at 09:55 AM.

  5. #5
    A subscription based model doesnt make the game successful. WoW is successful because its adapted and its became what we have set the bar for new coming games. Its a comfy and friendly safe zone on how a fluid and well designed MMO should feel.

    Guild Wars is a great step in another direction, and your also comparing a game that has a major company where the game itself has many years developing and adapting under its belt.

    If you compare first year WoW to first year Guild Wars your gonna see different results.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Ddps View Post
    A subscription based model doesnt make the game successful. WoW is successful because its adapted and its became what we have set the bar for new coming games. Its a comfy and friendly safe zone on how a fluid and well designed MMO should feel.

    Guild Wars is a great step in another direction, and your also comparing a game that has a major company where the game itself has many years developing and adapting under its belt.

    If you compare first year WoW to first year Guild Wars your gonna see different results.
    I don't see how a system which brings in less money in one year than a weekly revenue of a multi million subscription based game can even compete in the long run.

    It is a dead end. Not for the players of course, they only see the (very) short success cycle and hop from one new launch to another in a matter of ... weeks. But for this industry of course.

    F2P is not the solution. Better MMO's is.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    I don't see how a system which brings in less money in one year than a weekly revenue of a multi million subscription based game can even compete in the long run.

    It is a dead end. Not for the players of course, they only see the (very) short success cycle and hop from one new launch to another in a matter of ... weeks. But for this industry of course.

    F2P is not the solution. Better MMO's is.
    I'm going to take the approach that you, yourself, have never made a single game in your life. Im also going to assume you know nothing of Blizzard nor ArenaNet history.

    Blizzard made millions off of the Warcraft/Diablo/Starcraft series well before World of Warcraft. When WoW was created, they did not need a subscription based system to stay in business. It was made, more than likely, to make more money and well frankly that was the only model truly working.

    You can argue more money pushes product, and it is true, to an extent. Your argument is invalid for a different reason. You are saying without a subscription based model, no MMO can be successful. Look at both Rift and SWTOR. SWTOR was a subscription based MMO that is now a F2P, and Rift is declining fast. However Guild Wars holds over both of them, easily and is more F2P than either of them (with SWTORs market).

    Another point Guild Wars is still pushing out constant content, just as good of quality as of Blizzards. Money helps, but a lot isnt needed to make a worthy game.

    I am also going to point out, you probably have never played Guild Wars 2, it is a fine MMO, that will last for a long time. I would not be surprised to see a change in the payment plan industry over the next 10 years at all.

    Lord of the Rings Online, Warhammer online, Aion online, Tera online, Rift, Star Wars the Old Republic= All these started out as subscription based MMO's.

    Guild Wars 2= Free to Play, more active players than all of them

    If you want to compare an MMO 8 year title to a 1 year old game, your statistics are flawed.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Ddps View Post
    I'm going to take the approach that you, yourself, have never made a single game in your life. Im also going to assume you know nothing of Blizzard nor ArenaNet history.

    Blizzard made millions off of the Warcraft/Diablo/Starcraft series well before World of Warcraft. When WoW was created, they did not need a subscription based system to stay in business. It was made, more than likely, to make more money and well frankly that was the only model truly working.

    You can argue more money pushes product, and it is true, to an extent. Your argument is invalid for a different reason. You are saying without a subscription based model, no MMO can be successful. Look at both Rift and SWTOR. SWTOR was a subscription based MMO that is now a F2P, and Rift is declining fast. However Guild Wars holds over both of them, easily and is more F2P than either of them (with SWTORs market).

    Another point Guild Wars is still pushing out constant content, just as good of quality as of Blizzards. Money helps, but a lot isnt needed to make a worthy game.

    I am also going to point out, you probably have never played Guild Wars 2, it is a fine MMO, that will last for a long time. I would not be surprised to see a change in the payment plan industry over the next 10 years at all.

    Lord of the Rings Online, Warhammer online, Aion online, Tera online, Rift, Star Wars the Old Republic= All these started out as subscription based MMO's.

    Guild Wars 2= Free to Play, more active players than all of them

    If you want to compare an MMO 8 year title to a 1 year old game, your statistics are flawed.
    warhammer online still is sub based. and has maybe 100k subs worldwide. but there net profit is huge. because there not making any new content. because its a pvp based game.

  9. #9
    I can tell you for a fact that Warhammer Online does NOT have a huge profit margin :P

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    The only one coming close is a non fantasy mmo EvE with 40 times less revenue in the last 2 years.
    Are you taking that with subscriptions only, or are you adding in the PLEX buyers as well?
    Quote Originally Posted by Crabby
    I'm Commander Crabby, and this is my favorite forum on the website.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    For those dreaming of a free to play WoW.
    I believe free WoW already exists.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by loki504 View Post
    warhammer online still is sub based. and has maybe 100k subs worldwide. but there net profit is huge. because there not making any new content. because its a pvp based game.
    there is noway in hell Warhammer has 100k subs.
    Gamers are too obsessed with the death of games. Imagine if all that energy was channeled into the LIFE of games.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    SWTOR is free to play and Rift has 18 servers worlwide. That's a 82% loss in servers compared to its launching first months.

    The only one coming close is a non fantasy mmo EvE with 40 times less revenue in the last 2 years.

    The rest went free to play and rolling very low on revenue compared to a subscription based system ( be that through western payments or cell phone like payments (china)).

    This simply proves that going free to play is not even an option, f2p is more like a last survival mode for extended mmorpg play and to be avoided at all costs...

    Something this industry doesn't realise yet.
    Not sure - how come games like Farmville, LoL or LotRO survive and exist if F2P doesn't work? It might be the ONLY valid model for said games, because nobody would bit and pay 5 Euros a month for a game like Farmville if it was subbased, but they are happy to spend the occasional vanity dollar. Or these games are indeed Pay to win (Farmville I mean, not LotRO or SWoTOR)
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Not sure - how come games like Farmville, LoL or LotRO survive and exist if F2P doesn't work? It might be the ONLY valid model for said games, because nobody would bit and pay 5 Euros a month for a game like Farmville if it was subbased, but they are happy to spend the occasional vanity dollar. Or these games are indeed Pay to win (Farmville I mean, not LotRO or SWoTOR)
    The answer to your question can be seen in the stock trading of their mother company ( case of Farmville) : zynga games

    Just look at Zynga games. The last record was a 800% loss in its stock value over 12 months and its introduction on the stock market..

    This about MONEY ... NOT... being made by these "free to pay" games.

    In fact Zynga was the first company with many of these "multi million free games" that went to Wall street and it was a disaster since they had to comply to ...audited ....open book keeping ...

    I am pretty sure a LOT (not all) of these so called free money making companies are nothing short of money laundry machines and it speaks volumes that the most successful of these free to play companies fell flat on its belly within one year of introduction...

    In other words: 90 million players and no income just confirms my thoughts on the subject.

    These companies work with ...%% growth instead of dollar signs. In other words : thin air.

    Of course Zynga is a fantastic example of how player numbers are no longer linked to hard dollars revenue. But be my guest and do control the PR statements about LOTRO and Co: ALL you will find on the web is %% and more %%. You will not find a single dollar sign in these pep talks.
    Last edited by BenBos; 2013-01-03 at 11:32 AM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post

    I am pretty sure a LOT (not all) of these so called free money making companies are nothing short of money laundry machines and it speaks volumes that the most successful of these free to play companies fell flat on its belly within one year of introduction...

    In other words: 90 million players and no income just confirms my thoughts on the subject.

    These companies work with ...%% growth instead of dollar signs. In other words : thin air.

    Of course Zynga is a fantastic example of how player numbers are no longer linked to hard dollars revenue. But be my guest and do control the PR statements about LOTRO and Co: ALL you will find on the web is %% and more %%. You will not find a single dollar sign in these pep talks.
    This is the moment i realized this guy has no idea what he is talking about, and is just blowing smoke.

  16. #16
    IMHO - the reason most other MMOs are F2P is that they realize that they don't have what it takes to play in the sub market with WoW. They are all just wow-clones, and they know thy can't directly compete with WoW. So, F2P allows them into the MMO market without having to directly compete with WoW.

  17. #17
    Asians pay much less then NA/EU/etc. More then half of the "active subscribers" come from Asia. Blizzard used to declare over 1 billion in yearly sub revenue, but now they hide their sales numbers and sub numbers. The game is not doing as good as the fanboys wish it was.

    Asia gets separate lockouts and better gear for 25 mans, because they want them to play and pay more... band aid solutions that will fuck up world first races.

  18. #18
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    I am pretty sure a LOT (not all) of these so called free money making companies are nothing short of money laundry machines and it speaks volumes that the most successful of these free to play companies fell flat on its belly within one year of introduction...

    In other words: 90 million players and no income just confirms my thoughts on the subject.
    Someone obviously dosent know what he is talking about. Of those 90 Million people, dont you think that some(alot) spend money on getting further in the games, thats how they make a living. By boosting ppl.

    Asians pay much less then NA/EU/etc. More then half of the "active subscribers" come from Asia. Blizzard used to declare over 1 billion in yearly sub revenue, but now they hide their sales numbers and sub numbers. The game is not doing as good as the fanboys wish it was.
    Blizzard have def taken a small beating in the past, but i think Mists of Pandaria shows that they have learned from their mistakes in the past. There was some problems with hosting ect during Wotlk(?) in china, which lead to a massive loss of players. But i think its save to say, that even without them blizzard is still making more money than any other game.
    I agree that blizzard could ''spend'' the money they earn differently, like getting another raid encounter developer ect for pushing out more content. But if you really look at the big Picture they are doing really good, and World of Warcraft is nothing but perfection atm.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    Did you know that WoW's weekly revenue from subscriptions ...is more than the complete yearly revenue of its closest competitor ?

    Even more: one day of WoW subscriptions = the total expected retail profit of GW2 in 2013 ... (250k copies retail x 15 dollars profit).

    Reasoning: nothing beats a subscription model. For those dreaming of a free to play WoW.
    Considering Blizzard does not release this information to the public how do you know this? Also how do have access to Arena Net's financial information?

    WOW launched in a very different time where the subscription model was the accepted one. As more and more quality free to play games are released the less acceptable the subscription model is becoming amongst players which seems to be playing out in WOWs inability to replace leavers with new subscribers.

    I'm not sure why you, as player, think that the monthly subscription model cannot be beaten when other publishers have proven that they can produce quality content without the need to charge their players each and every month. I could understand your support if Blizzard were pumping out content at a rate its competitors cannot match but this is not the case and in the past four years we have been left with absolutely no new content for almost two of them. In essence you are supporting Blizzard lining its pockets and nothing else.

  20. #20
    OP, yes, WoW makes a ton of money. That can't be denied. However, the game is 8 years old. Any MMO released will be compared to WoW and because of this sub based MMOs will typically fail because they won't be able to hold a candle to WoW as it is a new game compared to an old game and people won't give it enough time to get established(you are a perfect example of this, comparing Blizz's 8 year game to Arenanet's 1 year game). Because of this game designers need to come up with a way to push their game. Games like GW2 do this with no sub fee while releasing the same amount if not more content. Because of this gamers will see that sub based games are not the way to go. Sure, everyone will continue to play WoW and it'll be fine but I can almost guarantee that Blizzards next MMO will not have a sub fee because most gamers won't go for it anymore. I still play WoW because of the amount of time I've invested in the game but in a new release, why would I opt for a sub fee game if I can get a buy2play game instead that releases as much content? There's no reason and you'll find most gamers will agree with this.

    Bottom line, WoW works for now, but all new MMOs will move away from this model of sub fees or fail. You can already see it happening. Games need something better than WoW if they want to have a sub fee and nobody is producing it. GW2 went a different way and it's working out for them. They've proved to everyone, a 0 sub fee game work and work well and most people will no longer tolerate spending $15 a month but do so with WoW because of the time put into the game. Once that stops, well, good luck with it.

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