there's always a risk that someone is gonna HATE the revamp, but from what we've seen on warlocks up until now, they'll be a minority.
but the point is: rogue popularity is a damn big design problem. they don't do significantly less dps than other classes, and the "thief-assassin-gangster-spy-streetfighter-ninja" theming is a popular one, so why are they unpopular? that's what the devs have to ask themselves and work on.
I am pretty sure a well done revamp would lift rogue popularity without harming oldschool rogue players (except for the 5% most conservative ones).
actually rogues may get revamped on Expansion 5. I say this because of this tweet from GC himself:
from what I've seen (with no statistical basis, just my own perception), the warlock revamp was successful. the warlock forums is usually the second most busy class forum on MMOchampion (the monk one is usually the first), and seeing other warlocks on LFR is pretty normal now, while it was very rare on 4.3.Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
the risk you said exists, of course. it always exists, on every change. but if nothing changes, than nothing will change. the design problems that cripple rogue popularity will remain.
I have a rogue. I want to play my rogue, but I can't bring myself to do it. that's very sad
Warlorcs of Draenorc made me quit. You can't have my stuff.
I hate playing Rogue in PVE because it is boring. The rotation is horrible, uninteresting, and streamlined beyond reason. I can play Death Knight in PVE, so I know it simply isn't the fact I don't like PVE. My Rogue is my main and the character I take the most seriously, so I always did PVE on him first.
As others have said, the lack of abilities that actually do anything other than a glorified weapon attack with no special animation is fairly disheartening as well. Doing most of your damage from auto attacks or poisons is a very dumb design IMO.
There's one more thing affecting rogue gameplay that surprisingly nobody mentioned yet: AOE!
There is too much AOE in the game currently, messing up rogues in many different ways.
When I last played my rogue in TBC, I could get destealthed by AOE only if somebody was aware of me and actively using it. Now AOE skills are part of the normal rotation for most classes.
PVP: you get destealthed "accidentally" too much as a rogue nowadays, and by accidentally I mean by some random AOE not targeted at finding you
- howling blast! this one's the best, it's all over the place in BGs. You pass by somebody fighting a DK and get destealthed immediately
- glaive toss - making your way to a beckpeddling hunter and bam - he destealthed you by chance while attacking someone 40y away from you
- priest AOE - it is so huge, you'd better waste your cloak when approaching a fighting spot with a priest around
- lock AOE - the talent that increases aoe radius ruins arenas. They never go OOM and they can spam rain of fire or hellfire until they hit you. Again, use cloak while in stealth or no opener for you
- rogues don't fit AOE per design, it's a single target high damage class, rogues didn't even have AOE prior to wotlk. And what happened then - WotLK arrives, AOE fest! mobs are dead even before you managed to use a finisher and the group is off to the next. You still don't have AOE till lvl 80 - the leveling experience was terrible
- now rogues have AOE - but it is boring and with a lot of downtime. It's also clunky - you start spamming fan of knives and your mob dies at 3 combo points, what then? either use a weak crimson tempest or start FoK anew
In short, rogues don't quite fit the way the game has evolved - homogenization took rogue's best tools and gave them to other classes, while rogues didn't quite fit what they were given in order to adapt to the new environment
their resource system gimps them in many ways, having to stop dps to order to pool energy for adds when they come out (orbs on elegon). at least with monk the "finishers" only cost 2 "combo points" that can be generated from 1 GCD, which means more time using gcds and more time regenerating energy between attacks, which gives much more smooth flow to the rotation.
needing to waste combo points to stun in pve. pretty much the only class that loses dps to stun.
we have garbage aoe and the only good aoe we do have is being nerfed.
no raid cd/buffs other than tricks which doesnt really do shit for threat and is only used for the 15% 6 sec dmg bonus it gives to the target, at a dps loss to us.
the only thing we have really going for us in pve is being able to cheese some mechanics with cleave (which is being nerfed) and using cloak / feint to be able to soak damage when it helps the rest of the raid.
everything and their mother breaks stealth in pvp, including pre-poting in pve so we need to waste a macro to prepot / stealth before a pull and cant start behind to tricks / ambush right away.
They continue to insult the rogue community every expansion.
Last edited by Corayo; 2013-01-10 at 08:08 AM.
The visuals and general game play can be lackluster.
For example, I hate how Sinister Strike looks and how it sounds. They should update it to a diagonal upwards->downards slash that's purple with some shades of black thrown in, but much more noticeable than before. The sound needs to be changed to something more badass.
Eviscerate... well, you're eviscerating someone. The spell should be A LOT more bloody than it is. Blood should be flying all over the place and possibly make it so it covers the rogue as well for a very brief time, just as an added little visual. A new unique animation for it like they gave Templar's Verdict and Slam would be welcome as well. Maybe the rogue thrusts his weapons forward in a two-handed stabbing motion, akin to Mutilate but hands much closer together (With red slashes indicating the speed at which the weapons were thrust forth, or something), then rips them outward in a splash of gore.
The defining mechanic, stealth, only happens once per fight.
The argument of "why rogues are the least played class" has so many variables that talkin about everything would result in a brainstorm of epic proportion.
Given this, i think most posters here have hit the nail in the head - rogues need a very deep revamp.
I would like to go deep into mechaninc-eviscerating, but it's somethink the "average joe" (thnaks Tziva) wouldn't understand and acutally doesn't care much about. The game has evolved, classes have evolved, but rogues has basically stayed the same for all the time. More abilities and new spells won't deliver if under all those buttons you are just "keeping SnD and Rupture up".
The visual component has for sure a lot to do into this, it's what makes people say "hell i want to try this, looks awesome". But the problem is much deeper - it's not like there aren't anymore new rogues, but old players are getting away from the class and even alts aren't played to level cap.
Anyone can say that the rotations are boring, or the PvP is diffcult and not rewarding for rogues, but people find the class boring even leveling. Why? Basically because the main abilities you get at level 10 (taking this because of specs and flavor) is what you're going to use until 90 and beyond through all the endgame. Nothing more. Other classes take cooldowns and cool abilities, we just countinue to keep up SnD and don't use Rupture since mobs die too quick.
Rogues are plain boring. My rogue has always been my main, and i like the gameplay of the class aswell the concept. But all i see is other classes evolving and also a new class which has the same gear, more flavour, and multiple roles - a thing that draws attention away from rogues.
I'd play rogue even if i was the last one remaining. But seeing both old and new players getting away means something. And seeing how good the work on warlock has been, i'm just waiting for 6.0
In addition to the myriad of other reasons, it's also because: We don't do anything someone else can't do, and often they can do it better. Why relegate yourself to a melee DPS only class when you can do equal single target, cleave, and AOE as another yet also bring better buffs and tank?
They used to be popular because they were feared in PvP due to stunlock, and were kings of Melee DPS in PvE. They took both of those things away, and gave zero utility in compensation.
Last edited by Chult; 2013-01-10 at 09:06 AM.
We don't have a lot of abilities we use.
We only use SS and Evis / Env and every few minutes we pop some CD's and be sure to keep RvS, SnD and Rupture up.
Where's the fun in that? There's no flavour, no variety into our rotation...
It should seem obvious that a class that is by design locked into a single role of melee dps should at the least then have the ability to change this playstyle between specs. GC even agreed with this sentiment in a recent tweet.
The fact is, we don't change playstyle much at all between specs. The core concept of a rogue is a class that builds combo points upon a target and then unleashes them in a powerful attack. This core concept is, if a little dated, a solid one.
The trouble is, no spec has much if any deviation to this rule. In fact, most specs are pretty much just the core concept, barely any fleshing out of it - use combo point builder, use finisher, repeat. It gets worse when you realise the fleshing out you do get, is pretty much the same in all specs - maintain S&D and rupture. And whilst we have assassination, a build that is dependent on poision and DoT effects, you never feel as though it is, it's simply something that happens without you willing it by pressing choose specialisation.
Looking at the warlock, their core concept is a class that uses damage over time effects, minions and some slow casts. Now, their fleshing out is far improved and varied.
You have a spec dependent on DoTs, which are all maintained and improved by the player - the player is directly involved in how the damage is applied, they have real on demand choices to make.
You have a spec that builds a completely independent and exclusive resource, Demonic Fury, building this well turns you into a demon - something that will forever be badass and awesome. This spec answers the call of the person who wants to show off and be flashy, not only this, but playing well lets you be flashy and badass for longer - the holy grail of design.
Finally, a spec that works by offering big nukes to players playing well, play better and you get to press the button that makes pretty big numbers appear. Again, it has it's own independent and unique resource, Burning Embers and offers itself to the player who enjoys blowing things up. A unique play style for a unique player.
Now compared to our specs,
We have a spec that is called Combat, no one really knows why, but there it is. This spec is desiged to be fast paced, toe-to-toe action. It functions more or less as it's core concept, you maintain S&D, rupture and Revealing Strike, use your combo point builder and when possible, use your finisher. The play style is touted as fast paced, and whilst this may end up being true at the end of the expansion, it is not now. The design goal is achieved at points, especially during CDs. However, there is no interesting mechanic to break away from the core, you have no flavour, you simply get to hit buttons faster than normal at certain points.
We have assassination. This spec works by improving poison attacks, passively. It functions more or less as it's core concept, you maintain S&D (barely), rupture and try to maximise Envenom by using your combo point builder and when possible, use your finisher. The play style rewards playing slowly, literally stopping your attacks at frequent predictable moments improves dps - a very odd design, some would call it poor. The design goal is achieved in that we have a spec that does most of it's damage by poison, but player interaction in this design is removed and in fact rewarded for playing less.
We have a spec based around being elusive and stealty. This spec works by rewarding you for going stealthy. You maintain S&D, rupture and haemorrhage, use you combo point builder and when possible, use your finisher. The play style rewards you for pressing the vanish button and immediately coming out of stealth mildly. The design goal is missed, probably due to pvp balance issues. It no longer has spec specific abilities to set it apart, it is difficult to feel stealthy in the stealthy spec.
The major points in time where people are switching generally to another class is right before or after the start of a new expansion (and to a lesser extent between major patches)
And that is exactly the moment where a rogue is at its weakest spot of an expansion damage wise, with bad gear, bad weapons, and for the last few years, a seemingly lack of developer attention.
In PvP you don’t attract players either with the current state of it.
People that play a class because of visual effects won’t flock to the rogue either. While I agree that we are silent and suble killers and are supposed to look like it too, you cannot deny that there is a sweet spot between lighting up like a christmas tree, and not lighting up at all. We need to be assigned to that sweet spot and not look like a broken light bulb.
People that like big numbers? No they choose every class above the rogue, since the rogue just doesn’t rely on quality, but on quantity.
In general I also think that people don’t like ‘passive’. People like to see that their actions matter.
And yes, also in that department the rogue is lacking…
So what exactly would bring a new player to the rogue class? I have no idea.
In short: rogues look boring, rogues play boring, and rogue talents look boring to most people.
People can be whoever they choose to be on the internet - It is strange that so many people choose to be stupid.
every time I see someone mentioning the word "rouge" I get the urge to say "yes, we are overpowdered"...
Just look at all the cool nerfs we get, just more and more and more how can u not love it its pure love........ wss in a hc and a retri was tank a retri paladin yep, he did insaneeeeeeeeeeee dps op as hellllllllllllllll, same gear as mine raid finder, and yea feral druids stole all and better even cause of the non stop heal as they dps its best thing ever dont need to press a thing just dps, tier set bonus o yea thats a win for us, look at rest what it does and for us........ so since is going that great no wonder the class is in a down and continue fall no a dead class, you must really like youre char to stick with it
Am i the only one here who dislike rogue for their energy system ? I thought they had too much down time between energy/combo. Perhaps that because my rogue only at like lvl 45.
one change they should have done a long time ago was making finish move free, its ølike till hving the old backstab for assa where you needed to wait for 60 energy to gain 30 back finish moves works still the same way, wait 35 energy to use a finish move, get 25 energ back, giving us wait time.
Rogue Forum Moderator (formerly Mugajak)
Former Electric Sheep Recruitment Officer (They're Great!) - Kaeldraens