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  1. #1

    Rogue feedback! Why they are so unpopular?!

    Hello Everyone! I was wondering where exactly I should post feedback for rogue to blizzards dev team? I was reading the blue posts recently and there's a lot of comments about how rogues have such a low number of players playing them at level cap. I was wondering how you know when to participate in these little questioning events to provide feedback.

    The feedback I want to give is that, I personally believe that rogues are not played popularly is because practically of their damage or dps comes from auto attacks. Granted I'm terrible at pve on my rogue but the top 3 damaging spells on recount are my poison, my poison, and auto attacks. (in asass of course). For other specs I'm sure that there are some other moves instead of poison but isn't melee attacks first then usually? Maybe its just me but I feel like that's just not fun to play. If they moved the damage to the finishers, so that the damaging finishers actually did something and took away from the auto attacks then I feel like it would be much more fun / interesting to play?

    Also this may just be me being bias because I like to pvp and having abilities to more damage then auto attacks would be beneficial since lower uptime wouldn't hurt as much?

    Tell me what do you think?

  2. #2
    I think 1 overlooked problem is that, partially because of the autoattack damage, they not only play quite boring but they look quite boring visually.

    I think when you're choosing classes to play, you look at other classes around you and think "Yeah, they look really cool! I wanna play that class!"

    DKs, Pallas, Mages, Shamans, if you see them out fighting it looks like they're out really doing something and when they hit it does damage. If you ever see a Rogue in a fight, they're either running around being kited, hiding or just stood behing the enemy quietly attacking them. The enemys life is going down but it's nothing that looks like they're doing big hits or anything. As an alternatie, look at DK, you see them DeathGrip people to them like they were nothing, throw diseases around, chain them in ice, summon a load of zombies to attack them and then bash them in the face with a giant axe, before making their corspe explode in a shower of blood.

    There's nothing about Rogues that looks awesome that would make people want to play them if they saw them out in the world.
    Last edited by rogueMatthias; 2013-01-09 at 04:31 PM.

  3. #3
    Free Food!?!?! Tziva's Avatar
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    While I think there are a handful of particular things about the rogue class that ought to be changed, I think those problems are more frustrating to the established rogue community then a detractor for new-to-the-class players. Random Joes aren't abandoning their rogue alt as dull because Tricks of the Trade is stupid design, or the are tired of having to go Combat for cleave fights in raid. Random Joes aren't even getting that far.

    I think the real reason people don't play rogues is they just aren't flashy and exciting. Most people think they're boring. I love my rogue and have been happily playing her since classic, but there is merit to this argument. Almost all our attacks are variations of of the same stab/slash activity and while some of them have distinct animations, we don't have a lot of the really cool graphics that some of the other melee classes have. Watch a DK fight someone, then watch a rogue. Even watching it is dull. We also don't have any abilities where reading the tooltip is "wow, that sounds cool." Some of our utility is fun and useful, but most of our primary moves sound and look pretty lackluster. These things are super trivial but I think in reality they are big unconscious influencers for how attracted a player is initially to a class. If you look and feel boring, no one is going to stick with you long enough to fall in love with all those things the rest of us really love about rogues.

    I mean, you can make arguments that we're rogues, we're supposed to be subtle. Flashy graphics and fantastical abilities are too over-the-top for us. You can point out that because we've always been high damage, we've never needed a huge overhaul like Ret Paladins, and that we're older then the new, flashy DK class that needed that flare to attract people to trying it out. Perhaps valid arguments, but I still think it's an issue that needs looked at.
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  4. #4
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
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    In addition to looking dull, it plays poorly as well.

    Repetitive, extreme wait times, small distinctions between specs, very few fun or unique abilities left.
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    Free Food!?!?! Tziva's Avatar
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    To me, while the monk is the disciplined martial artist, rogues are the dirty street fighter with the concealed weapons. I've love to see more fun abilities like eye gouge and fishhook and groin punch, complete with corresponding animations. Who wouldn't read those tooltips and say AWESOME I NEED TO TRY THIS CLASS.

    Or maybe I'm just fucked up

    Don't get me wrong, our weapon abilities are important and should be our primary attack, but it would be nice to have some other unique abilities as part of our rotation that aren't just another variation of a slash with our weapon. Something that made you excited when you got the ability, something that would make you want to leave town to run around and find some mobs to test it on.
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  6. #6
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    Just a thought I've been playing around with, but do people like to play a class that has a high skill cap? At the moment rogues in PvE have a small skill cap (Sub not included as not played enough... yet) and thus any old 'Joe' can do the same DPS with minimal effort, whereas other classes it comes down to how good at the game you are?

    PvP side of it, well rogues just plain out suck in PvP atm.

  7. #7
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    I don't really agree that rogues are any easier or harder to play than other classes, all classes have a "best " rotation, add in your set of macros and any class played by anyone can do similar dps, every class can be played better based on player skill , I personally love my rogue and could care less if it is flashy to play, sub isn't played atm because the haste needed to make sub viable atm is ridiculous.

  8. #8
    Free Food!?!?! Tziva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mutix View Post
    Just a thought I've been playing around with, but do people like to play a class that has a high skill cap? At the moment rogues in PvE have a small skill cap (Sub not included as not played enough... yet) and thus any old 'Joe' can do the same DPS with minimal effort, whereas other classes it comes down to how good at the game you are?
    I really don't think this is the issue. Some people like low, some people like high. Most classes are pretty similar anyway (even the harder ones are not that much harder than the easy ones; they are all fairly simple to play decently), so I don't really think this is a big factor. And really it's only relevant end-game, and I get the impression that a lot of people aren't even enjoying rogues enough to get that far.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by swiftmaul View Post
    the top 3 damaging spells on recount are my poison, my poison, and auto attacks. (in asass of course). For other specs I'm sure that there are some other moves instead of poison but isn't melee attacks first then usually? If they moved the damage to the finishers, so that the damaging finishers actually did something and took away from the auto attacks then I feel like it would be much more fun / interesting to play?
    Mut has a problem with this, but I don't feel like it's a real problem because I know that I'm getting more poison damage than just my normal melee attacks because I'm Mut and I'm fitting 80% or more of my CP generators into Envenom buffs.

    Combat and Subtlety, you're right about. For such GCD-focused specs, poison ticks/procs shouldn't be such a big source of damage. However, you're kind of stuck with big white damage for Combat because changing the 1H 2.6-speed weapons would also require balance changes for Enhancement Shamans and Windwalker/Brewmaster Monks (not sure about Monk weapons).
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  10. #10
    Probably because for 2 out of 3 specs the main sources of dmg are passives (ie auto attack / poisons) which makes it all seem less interesting.

  11. #11
    Brewmaster OneSent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogueMatthias View Post
    I think 1 overlooked problem is that, partially because of the autoattack damage, they not only play quite boring but they look quite boring visually.
    I agree that this is a large part of why rogues are so unpopular right now. It's not that they haven't changed enough, it's just that all the other classes have changed so much.

    Just about every other class right now is a super saiyan, button-mashing, proc-happy experience comparable to a game of Whack-A-Mole, with buttons lighting up all over the place and glowing UI elements flashing in your face with fancy over-the-top spell effects that nearly cause you to go blind.

    Meanwhile, rogues are still the same class at the core, with the same look and feel they have always had. Is that the fault of rogues or of the developers who maybe overdid it a little with the other classes? They have admitted that they believe rogues to be the best designed class in the game, so we know where they stand in that regard.

    Some people have no problem with rogues being a bit on the "boring" side. For some of us, that's why we stick around. But for others, it is not enough to keep them interested. The class doesn't have the same appeal it did back in the day when the game was littered with them. The concept of the "stealthy ganker" class kind of died out awhile ago.

    But, instead of trying to bring rogues up to par, perhaps they should bring the other classes down a notch? It's doubtful, but it's another way of looking at it.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    Random Joes aren't abandoning their rogue alt as dull because Tricks of the Trade is stupid design, or the are tired of having to go Combat for cleave fights in raid
    Well...

    I wouldn't call myself a random Joe who only logs in, does some dailies and logs out. But the whole Blade Flurry fiasco is exactly why I quit. I'm okay with a certain spec being better on a certain fight, every class has to deal with that. Especially as a pure DPS class you need to be flexible and change to fit what works best on a fight. I just got tired as hell by how much Blade Flurry inflated your damage. It really was this ''iWIN-button'' that would automatically make you top the charts. Being forced into Combat because it pulls 80k+ DPS more on fights like Stone Guards and Geralon because of additional damage mechanics was ridiculous. As a heroic raider who cares about me and my guild's output this gap is too hard to ignore. This isn't the only reason of course, but it's one of the main reasons. By far the biggest reason is melee disadvantage this tier. Dragon Soul was very melee friendly, tier 14 simply punishes you for being a melee class. This is my biggest reason.
    Last edited by Bovan; 2013-01-09 at 06:09 PM.

  13. #13
    rogue unpopularity comes from 2 sources: gameplay and aesthetics.

    gameplay is bland, with too much passive damage and outdated mechanics. many mechanics that used to define rogues were copied and enhanced by other classes, while rogues themselves didn't change much throughout the years.

    aesthetic-wise, rogues are unappealing. bland skills, bland effects, bland gear. look at t13: paladins get to dress up in gold, while rogues wear a badly stitched batman costume. rogues have this discreet style, and most people would rather play something more flashy.

    my suggestions:

    • make gameplay more proactive;
    • give rogues some new mechanics, or enhance the ones they have (rogue stealth needs a buff);
    • give them some more flashy skills. what they need is something that looks fast and precise, like Durand's flash of steel in the Scarlet Monastery;
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  14. #14
    I can see why people think Rogue gameplay is bland or boring but I think that is too much based on individual opinions. I for one never found the gameplay that boring, the only thing I thought was boring as absolute hell was the new Revealing Strike. This is most likely the 50th time I mentioned it on these forums but the MoP version of Revealing Strike is just a button you press every 18 seconds (more or less). In Cataclysm this was a button you press as soon as you got 4 combo points, requiring you to pay attention to the combo points you have as well as Sinister Strike glyph proccing and giving a sudden extra combo point.

    Abilities like Rupture and Slice and Dice may not appeal to many people. I for one found it very exciting having to manage several timers. Instead of looking at ''passive attack speed'' I was looking at it as ''I have 7 seconds to refresh this, how many combo points can I generate before it falls off and am I able to fit another finisher in before that?''. This is the main reason why my first ever main character is still up to this day my favorite, a Feral Druid. If they didn't butcher Ferals at the end of Wrath I would still be playing it up to this day. Managing timers, buffs and debuffs is something I find exciting.

    Aesthetically I couldn't agree more. If I watch a Rogue stab a dummy I wouldn't be able to tell the difference between him actually using all his abilities or being afk and making a cup of coffee. I'd say this is a very valid concern, and I'm sure this is one of the reasons why Rogues aren't being played much.

    My point is, gameplay being boring is very much an opinion based thing. While it doesn't appeal to some people it does appeal to others. Much like it might not appeal to you to shoot arrows with a bow while watching your pet maul a boss to death. To others watching their pet wolf Fluffykins rend and tear a mob apart is the coolest thing ever.
    Last edited by Bovan; 2013-01-09 at 06:23 PM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    I can see why people think Rogue gameplay is bland or boring but I think that is too much based on individual opinions. I for one never found the gameplay that boring, the only thing I thought was boring as absolute hell was the new Revealing Strike. This is most likely the 50th time I mentioned it on these forums but the MoP version of Revealing Strike is just a button you press every 18 seconds (more or less). In Cataclysm this was a button you press as soon as you got 4 combo points, requiring you to pay attention to the combo points you have as well as Sinister Strike glyph proccing and giving a sudden extra combo point.

    Abilities like Rupture and Slice and Dice may not appeal to many people. I for one found it very exciting having to manage several timers. Instead of looking at ''passive attack speed'' I was looking at it as ''I have 7 seconds to refresh this, how many combo points can I generate before it falls off and am I able to fit another finisher in before that?''. This is the main reason why my first ever main character is still up to this day my favorite, a Feral Druid. If they didn't butcher Ferals at the end of Wrath I would still be playing it up to this day. Managing timers, buffs and debuffs is something I find exciting.

    Aesthetically I couldn't agree more. If I watch a Rogue stab a dummy I wouldn't be able to tell the difference between him actually using all his abilities or being afk and making a cup of coffee. I'd say this is a very valid concern, and I'm sure this is one of the reasons why Rogues aren't being played much.

    My point is, gameplay being boring is very much an opinion based thing. While it doesn't appeal to some people it does appeal to others. Much like it might not appeal to you to shoot arrows with a bow while watching your pet maul a boss to death. To others watching their pet wolf Fluffykins rend and tear a mob apart is the coolest thing ever.
    you see, I agree with you but I disagree with you at the same time. you have a point when you say that it's opinion based, but at the same time, you will have to agree with me that this is a very small niche.

    simplifying the whole deal, we have 3 specs that are way more about watching timers than doing anything else. too much passive damage. some people find it interesting, but I'd say there are lots of people who get turned off by this "the character does most of the damage by itself as long as I watch the timers".

    let me tell you a story. my main is and has always been a warlock. before MoP, all the three warlock specs were about putting DoTs, shooting nukes and having your pet hitting the enemy. and we were happy that way... all the 3 of us.

    than blizzard decided to touch us. and we liked it.

    demo is still about all those things, but now they introduced the stance dancing, that made it much more dynamic. it feels like we are a two-phased boss, except that we are players!

    affliction kept the old soul shard system and enhanced it a little. they did away with the nukes and instead introduced channeling to it, because quite a few people liked it when drain life was better than shadowbolt as a filler.

    destruction now only has to keep one DoT, and it's there mostly to make your nukes better. it's all about the nukes and managing your mana and embers.

    and now, outside specs, we can choose whether we want to use pets like we used to, or if we want to have one more pet CD for more burst, or if we want to get rid of the pet entirely!

    look at how much variety MoP brought to warlocks! they had 3 specs that played the same, and now they are totally different and special.

    rogues are in dire need of that. they need each spec to feel different from the other.

    they can have one spec with lots of timers and passive damage, to please people who loved the old rogue, and changing another one to have lots of active damage and less timers, pleasing an entirely different crowd. and than make the third spec have something completely different!

    basing myself on "real life logic", I'd propose this:

    • assassination gets to keep the timers to watch. you are bidding your time and waiting for the best time to strike;
    • combat gets the active damage. you are a fighter, you'll hit the enemy hard and as much as you can;
    • subtlety will get the crazier gameplay, because fighting with subtlety sounds like some sort of alternative thing. I'd suggest reworking shadow dance and making it a stance dance spec, but that's just because I love what blizz did to demo
    Last edited by checking facts; 2013-01-09 at 06:48 PM.
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  16. #16
    Free Food!?!?! Tziva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    Well...

    I wouldn't call myself a random Joe who only logs in, does some dailies and logs out. But the whole Blade Flurry fiasco is exactly why I quit. I'm okay with a certain spec being better on a certain fight, every class has to deal with that. Especially as a pure DPS class you need to be flexible and change to fit what works best on a fight. I just got tired as hell by how much Blade Flurry inflated your damage. It really was this ''iWIN-button'' that would automatically make you top the charts. Being forced into Combat because it pulls 80k+ DPS more on fights like Stone Guards and Geralon because of additional damage mechanics was ridiculous. As a heroic raider who cares about me and my guild's output this gap is too hard to ignore. This isn't the only reason of course, but it's one of the main reasons. By far the biggest reason is melee disadvantage this tier. Dragon Soul was very melee friendly, tier 14 simply punishes you for being a melee class. This is my biggest reason.
    Oh, I don't disagree with any of this; you're absolutely right.

    I just don't think this is a significant reason why there are not a lot of rogue players. Just based on my anecdotal experiences of what I've heard from players here, on the official forums and in-game, I think most players don't even get to that point before they decide they dislike playing a rogue. The problem for the average person is something much more foundational that makes them tedious or uninspiring.

    As a rogue, I obviously I think our quality of life is important and issues like that have to be addressed, but I have to concede that I don't think things like fixing rogue cleave is going to suddenly make a bunch of players who previously found rogues unappealing start playing them.
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  17. #17
    Rogues are bland. They're no better at DPS than anyone else now, and they're no better at PvP than anyone else now (the main two reasons to play one in the past). Combined with the fact that the class really hasn't changed since classic while everyone else continues to get really shiny new stuff every expansion and it's easy to get bored of the class that is now inherently average and basic.

    I started this tier as a rogue but am now healing because being "that guy who is going to do 3rd on DPS every fight" isn't very exciting if I don't even get a cool ability like metamorph to show off with during.
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  18. #18
    I agree with the opinion that rogue animations and skills are very dull and boring.

    Furthermore all three rogue specs play very samey.

  19. #19
    I don't want to stretch the whole topic out so I'm not going to quote your whole post checking facts. I did however read all of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    you see, I agree with you but I disagree with you at the same time. you have a point when you say that it's opinion based, but at the same time, you will have to agree with me that this is a very small niche.
    I am certainly agreeing with you there. While I personally really enjoyed this type of gameplay, I can very well understand that it doesn't appeal to many others. My concern is that if they change Rogues completely and get rid of this little niche that me and a handful of others enjoy, where will we go? Once all timer, buff and debuff related things are removed and instead all our abilities now do X amount of damage, how many people will continue their Rogue? Better question, why aren't the people who do like this gameplay playing say a Warrior already?

    Again I can see your point and I'm both agreeing and disagreeing as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    let me tell you a story. my main is and has always been a warlock. before MoP, all the three warlock specs were about putting DoTs, shooting nukes and having your pet hitting the enemy.
    Little off topic but I've always had a major soft spot for Warlocks as well. But casters and walking around in a dress just doesn't fit me. Not only does my butt look big in a dress, I can't deal well with casting things and not being able to move before the cast ended. Luckily I had a Feral in Wrath and Rogue in Cataclysm to fill my needs.

    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    they can have one spec with lots of timers and passive damage, to please people who loved the old rogue, and changing another one to have lots of active damage and less timers, pleasing an entirely different crowd. and than make the third spec have something completely different!
    I can see where you are going with this and yes this would cater to majority of the people. It definitely worked out for Warlocks but I'm afraid it would drive people away from their current main Rogues. People who play Rogues are the people who chose this niche. The niche Warlocks had is still very much present.

    But these are just my opinions. I am by no means a game designer and I have no experience designing games. But too much change will cause a lot of chaos.


    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    than blizzard decided to touch us. and we liked it.


    EDIT:
    Sorry Tziva I was typing this post as you posted yours. While I agree that the Blade Flurry change itself isn't going to suddenly make more players roll Rogues, it might make some of the older Rogues stick with their main. That however as you said does not fix or solve anything. I don't know what else to say at this point. It's clear Rogues aren't appealing to a large part of the community but I think ''fixing'' too much in one go will cause a much larger problem. It worked for Warlocks however, so I may very well be wrong.
    Last edited by Bovan; 2013-01-09 at 07:07 PM.

  20. #20
    Mechagnome Dragore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogueMatthias View Post
    There's nothing about Rogues that looks awesome that would make people want to play them if they saw them out in the world.
    One of the coolest things about rogues that would make people want to play them is the fact that you can't see them out in the world...

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