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  1. #1

    Subtley (Rogue) PvE 5.2 discussion

    First off... happy holidays everyone!

    I am aware of an existing thread discussing Sub in PvE come 5.2, but it turned into a "Sub is behind in dps (5.1), no one plays it, etc." I would like this thread to be about a friendly discussion about the upcoming changes and what other improvements you would like to see before the patch launches.

    I am ecstatic for this coming patch and hoping to return to Subtley full time for PvE (without feeling like I am completely gimping my raid's overall dps by choosing an inferior spec, because of its harder rotation, positional requirement and lack of niche).

    So, whats coming up for Sub improvements come 5.2?

    5.1 Change:
    -Vanish reduced to 2 mins (was 3).
    (old, but still a plus for Sub... a higher increase in terms of dps for Sub than the other two specs.)

    5.2 Changes:
    -Preparation is now a baseline ability
    (Very huge for PvP, but allows for another quick re-vanish for a bursty spot in a boss fight in PvE.)
    -New Level 90 Talent: Marked for Death - Marks a target and instantly generates 5 combo points. When that target dies, Marked for Death's cooldown is reset. This talent has a 1 minute cooldown.
    (Still trying to wrap my head around this one. Will be good for any fight with lots of adds, but with how HaT works, I can't see many Sub rogues choosing this over Anticipation).
    -New Level 60 Talent: Cloak and Dagger - Ambush, Garrote, and Cheap Shot now have a 30 yard range, and will cause the Rogue to teleport behind the target.
    (Best for Sub than any of the other specs, because of Dance. But I am not sure how well it would perform in PvE, since most bosses are stationary. Even with an add fight, I suspect Shadowstep would still be better. You won't always be able to get into stealth/dance to perform those abilities).
    -Blade Flurry now deals 75% less damage.
    (clearly not a Sub talent, but this means a rogue doesn't feel "required" to play Combat for fights like Windlord, Garalon, etc.)
    -Sanguinary Vein now increases the damage the target takes by 20% (was 16%).
    (a simple buff for a Sub Rogue! yay!)

    I am by no means a huge theorycrafter (and haven't played sub for some time, unfortunately) ... so let me know what you guys feel with these coming changes (if they go through) in terms of Sub in PvE. Perhaps I am miss reading a talent or may have missed something. Or just need to sit tight until people can test out the changes on the PTR.

    :-)

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-25 at 01:33 AM ----------

    now that I re-read Marked for Death... is it saying you are guaranteed 5 combo points the moment you activate the ability? So even on non-add fights, everyone minute you can get 5 free combo points? And any fight with adds allows for more usage of Marked for Death?

    Sounds even better!

  2. #2
    i think that sub is already better than combat with no cleave fights and on par with assa, at least till the execute phase for assa

  3. #3
    There's always been a bit of an art to HAT to not waste the combo points. Anticipation obviously gets rid of this. Unlike the other two specs, you actually can't destroy a combo point by accident except during dance- it's always "your fault". If you are running combat without Anticipation and are at 4 CPs, your average damage solution is to press sinister to get to five- but there's a 20% chance that you destroyed a combo point. You couldn't do anything about it though. Mutilate, same thing- since you can make 3 combo points with a mutilate, you can destroy a combo point by mutilating at three, and you would blow them up like crazy at 4 (but you run 4+ envenom).

    But sub? The only move sub has that makes two CPs is ambush. Outside of that, during your normal rotation, awareness of your upcoming HAT proc can prevent destruction of combo points completely.

    I believe that, properly played, pve sub will do the most damage with Marked for Death out of that tier- free combo points every minute is a nice eviscerate, hopefully during find weakness.

  4. #4
    true. Not wasting combo points became reasonably easy to manage in cata (with HaT in mind). As you get better at the rotation, knowing when HaT will proc again becomes second nature. I was thinking Anticipation would allow to pool combo points for two straight eviscerates during find weakness, but popping Marked for Death would allow this as well. However, as stated - they are "freebie" points, which are even better.

    Can't wait!

  5. #5
    From just the announced changes I suspect subt is going to be top dps spec in the next tier . . . which means it'll get nerfed, but I intend to enjoy it while it lasts

  6. #6
    It doesn't really mean it will get nerfed. Since Blizzard has decided Sub should be in pve, there have been 8 tiers (4 LK 3 Cata 1 MoP), and a properly played and tweaked sub has been #1 single target for 4 of them. They didn't even really nerf pve sub going into MoP- the devs have their internal sims which tell them that we are all dummies for not playing it (and I think it's clear by now that the only pve rogues on their team are world class quality, or at least the only ones they listen too). My concern for sub being "slain" in pve was the removal of two things- the need to keep recup up, and the auto-refresh on five point rupture. These two things, combined with slice and dice, would create many "crisis points" for a novice sub rogue, where a bunch of things needed to happen with combo points yet to be created, and it could EASILY sneak up on you. With the spec being a bit easier to play, I was worried that it wouldn't be allowed to perform.


    But I mean, a lot of specs got easier.


    So just because sub is on top doesn't mean they will nerf it necessarily.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post

    So just because sub is on top doesn't mean they will nerf it necessarily.
    You're absolutely right, I was just letting my bitter veteran player show

  8. #8
    What makes you guys believe the spec will out perform the other two specs, especially mut when it comes to single target? That would be awesome, but do the patch notes really push the spec that far ahead?

  9. #9
    Subtlety is already supposed to (in theory, with 510 weapons and upgraded gear) pull on-par with Assassination.

    If they made Eviscerate refresh Rupture again, the spec would pull ahead.
    Carp - Illidan-US
    I wish I wish I was a fish.
    Rogue - Warlock

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Carp The Fish View Post
    Subtlety is already supposed to (in theory, with 510 weapons and upgraded gear) pull on-par with Assassination.

    If they made Eviscerate refresh Rupture again, the spec would pull ahead.
    eh i don't feel like puting up rupture is that big of a deal. save 10 combo rupture then evis
    Last edited by Enhshamanlol; 2012-12-25 at 09:53 PM.

  11. #11
    Let's just look at the three specs at face value:

    Combat keeps track of Slice and Dice, Rupture, Bandit's Guile, and Restless Blades (when cooldowns are coming back up). All of Combat's cooldowns are "Set it and forget it." (for AR/SB) or "Don't stand in shit during Killing Spree".

    Assassination keeps track of Rupture, Envenom uptime, Dispatch procs, and hitting cooldowns when you'll be able to sit on the boss. All of Assassination's cooldowns are "Set it when you can hit him, then forget it" and "Don't overlap Envenom as much as possible".

    Subtlety keeps track of Slice and Dice, Rupture, Hemo bleed, Preparation, Find Weakness uptime, staying behind the boss, and "setting up" for Shadow Dance correctly. If you don't set up for Shadow Dance correctly (meaning you won't waste CPs on SND or Rupture during Find Weakness uptime), then your damage during Find Weakness is bad because you weren't able to hit Eviscerate. Shadow Dance is easily the most involving of a Rogue's cooldowns.

    Just at face value, Subtlety has the highest risk of failure; if you don't set up Shadow Dance correctly, your DPS drops 10k MINIMUM, and Rupture doesn't actually hit harder (Sang Vein would imply it does, but it really doesn't) as Subtlety than it does in the other two specs. In addition, if you're executing perfectly, Backstab doesn't actually hit any harder than the other CP-generating abilities (no big Crit bonus makes it weak).

    It's nice that we'll get more damage from Sang. Vein, BUT that doesn't fix any of the real problems with Sub's DPS.
    Here's some of the things Blizzard could do to make Subtlety viable again in PvE (not saying they're all good or that they all need to happen, but one or two of them would be nice...):

    1. Give either Ambush or Backstab (I'd prefer Backstab) SOME kind of added crit like they had it in Cata.
    2. Buff Rupture. Either to the ticking damage (this would be the nicest one, to me) or to have it refresh from Eviscerate so that you can keep a high-damage Rupture up at all times.
    3. Have Mastery affect more than our finishers. My first candidate for that would be the Hemo-Bleed, either in the number of ticks that is fit into a single Hemo duration or to the ticking damage directly.

    Honestly, I'd love to see Subtlety become a bleed-focused spec. We've got a direct-damage spec, we've got a poison spec, now we need Sub to become either a "Rogues do it from behind!" spec or a bleed spec.
    Carp - Illidan-US
    I wish I wish I was a fish.
    Rogue - Warlock

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by RemJay24 View Post
    What makes you guys believe the spec will out perform the other two specs, especially mut when it comes to single target? That would be awesome, but do the patch notes really push the spec that far ahead?
    I think *don't quote* but it's due to the EP values being higher for sub than mut. It's kind of saying crit/exp/haste helps sub more than assass and obviously the more you climb the tiers the more secondary stats you get. I think the change to SV will push it in the right direction immediately so as of 5.2 you can jump straight in.

    To answer some of your initial questions as well the vanish and prep changes do benefit sub more than anything and this will push it in the right direction, and as the 2nd poster noted the MFD talent is extremely good for sub over anything. On a single target assass will munch through wasted CPs w/o anticipation. Combat will be okay but sub will easily be manageable.

    Really it comes down to are you too lazy to push for extra dps/saftety barrier: anticipation
    Minmax? MFD

    I would definitely dust off sub when you are clearing t14 easily. Or just go hit the dummies get to grips and see what other good questions you can come up with.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by theherecy View Post
    Or just go hit the dummies get to grips and see what other good questions you can come up with.
    This part made my cry a little. (not tears of joy)
    Subtlety can only really be tested when you're getting HAT procs every time it's available, which means raids/LFR/PvE content. Otherwise, you'll come to the same "This generates combo points?!" conclusion I had when I was first messing with it in T13.
    Carp - Illidan-US
    I wish I wish I was a fish.
    Rogue - Warlock

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Carp The Fish View Post
    This part made my cry a little. (not tears of joy)
    Subtlety can only really be tested when you're getting HAT procs every time it's available, which means raids/LFR/PvE content. Otherwise, you'll come to the same "This generates combo points?!" conclusion I had when I was first messing with it in T13.
    you're not looking for the meaning of life when hitting the dummies just things you're bad at etc. in any case I was telling him to go look for any other questions

    When testing assassination it's a little tricky to, oh I don't know, execute maybe? Doesn't mean the pros just give up and wait for raiding to test it. I don't understand why the attitude was necessary; clearly you completely misinterpreted my answer.

  15. #15
    In my opinion, they should remove position requirements from Backstab and Ambush. I am tired of 'You must be behind the target' coming up, especially in PvP when the target is spinning and running around like crazy. It is an outdated mechanic that only 2 specs still have (feral and sub) and it needs to be removed swiftly. And if they want the position requirements to stay they could at least put a glyph in that removes it.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitorii View Post
    In my opinion, they should remove position requirements from Backstab and Ambush. I am tired of 'You must be behind the target' coming up, especially in PvP when the target is spinning and running around like crazy. It is an outdated mechanic that only 2 specs still have (feral and sub) and it needs to be removed swiftly. And if they want the position requirements to stay they could at least put a glyph in that removes it.
    No / No.
    If you don't want position requirement go play muti/combat, i enjoy playing a "ROGUE" spec (as in staying behind target and attacking at the weak points) instead of fury warrior in leather.

  17. #17
    Perhaps there is a mod that helps with "OMG, YOU ARE NOT DIRECTLY BEHIND THE TARGET!" - Maybe a noise that comes up like the noise you hear when approaching high threat from the tank.

    I remember this happening to me when I was sub when MoP released (first 2-3 weeks of release), where I wouldn't register right away why my energy wasn't going down. Usually its not a problem, as melee are always striving to be behind the target in the first place... but every so often... I get that "DOH!" feeling when I realize I am not in the correct position. Luckily there is hemo for those rare occasions where you cannot get behind the target right away.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    No / No.
    If you don't want position requirement go play muti/combat, i enjoy playing a "ROGUE" spec (as in staying behind target and attacking at the weak points) instead of fury warrior in leather.
    I don't like it because it puts our class at a disadvantage. For example, on Sha of Fear, if there are no adds up and you have to attack the boss you have to stand behind him and constantly watch the timers for Breath of Fear unlike other classes where they can just dps him. I know that it isn't hard to watch the timers and move for Breath but it is annoying and unneeded.

    And when it comes to pvp, nothing is more annoying than 'You must be behind your target.' I play in Australia, meaning we have slight lag (200-300ms) and even though it is only a bit of lag, getting behind your target in pvp is extremely hard when they aren't stunned.

    And like i said, they can leave the position requirements in so you can hit 'their weak points' but they should at least make a glyph to remove it.

  19. #19
    I've said it before in other threads, even if the tooltip doesn't explicitly say: All specs have a requirement to be behind anyway, as long as you don't get bosses like qiang the mercilles nothing changes.

    All though I can sympathise if you have any lag; that can be frustrating.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by theherecy View Post
    you're not looking for the meaning of life when hitting the dummies just things you're bad at etc. in any case I was telling him to go look for any other questions

    When testing assassination it's a little tricky to, oh I don't know, execute maybe? Doesn't mean the pros just give up and wait for raiding to test it. I don't understand why the attitude was necessary; clearly you completely misinterpreted my answer.
    No, I didn't. There's target dummies at the Argent Tournament grounds if you're wanting to test an Execute phase.
    Plain and simple, if you're trying to test Subtlety's fully-functioning rotation, you have to have people there giving your HAT procs from their crits. Otherwise, you are going to find the rotation to be impossible or too difficult to maintain.

    Edit: If they made a glyph to remove positional requirement from Subtlety, would it be called "Glyph of Forward Thinking" or what? And what would the trade-off be? "Your Backstab and Ambush lose the chance to crit, but gain 10% damage and no longer require you to be behind your target"?
    Last edited by Carp The Fish; 2012-12-26 at 05:00 PM.
    Carp - Illidan-US
    I wish I wish I was a fish.
    Rogue - Warlock

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