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  1. #1

    Bottle vs Windswept pages +1

    I just got LFR Bottle of Infinite Stars.

    I was wondering why so many hunters value this trinket so greatly over a static agility trinket.

    With the way SrS works according to most-that being updating dynamically with cobra shot-Static agility should be worth more than a proc as the AP bonus won't be carried through. Haven't done regular raids yet, too lazy to find a group.
    Last edited by Suffocatingsight; 2013-01-10 at 08:39 AM.

  2. #2
    It has a low internal CD and a long duration, giving it fantastic up-time. The normal version equals out to around 995 agility.

  3. #3
    I plan on switching to it, even with my lack of understanding. I played rogue for 7 years and spriest for 2, both of their dots were updated when applied and if refreshed via mf it kept the higher damage rolling.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-09 at 03:48 PM ----------

    The normal version equals out to around 995 agility.
    I'm aware of this, but my real problem with understanding this is that static agility gives static ap, which in turn increases my srs damage indefinitely. a proc does not increase it. now i can see the proc being useful for other damaging abilities, but the static agility will be almost as much-or more-useful than that. As far as i've seen, the hunter community is the worst theory crafters.
    Last edited by Suffocatingsight; 2013-01-09 at 08:50 PM.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Suffocatingsight View Post
    I plan on switching to it, even with my lack of understanding. I played rogue for 7 years and spriest for 2, both of their dots were updated when applied and if refreshed via mf it kept the higher damage rolling.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-09 at 03:48 PM ----------


    I'm aware of this, but my real problem with understanding this is that static agility gives static ap, which in turn increases my srs damage indefinitely. a proc does not increase it. now i can see the proc being useful for other damaging abilities, but the static agility will be almost as much-or more-useful than that. As far as i've seen, the hunter community is the worst theory crafters.
    What makes you think a proc wouldn't increase your SrS damage?

    Plus, not everything hinders on what makes your SrS do the most damage... depending on spec it's probably 10-20% of total damage on a typical single target fight. There's a lot more than serpent sting to increase the damage of.

  5. #5
    Oh i agree, But the average agi of bottle is what he stated 995, windswept is not far from that, but with a proc far better, not to mention it always coincides with relic.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-09 at 04:14 PM ----------

    A proc will not increase srs damage like it would other classes is what i was getting at.
    SrS is about 20% of my damage, and with the static agi it's consistently higher damage rather than for 20 seconds every minute. now if it were to carry the damage through like SW:P, i think it would be better.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Suffocatingsight View Post
    Oh i agree, But the average agi of bottle is what he stated 995, windswept is not far from that, but with a proc far better, not to mention it always coincides with relic.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-09 at 04:14 PM ----------

    A proc will not increase srs damage like it would other classes is what i was getting at.
    SrS is about 20% of my damage, and with the static agi it's consistently higher damage rather than for 20 seconds every minute. now if it were to carry the damage through like SW:P, i think it would be better.
    It procs a lot. I had a 44% uptime on my protectors kill yesterday. I have the heroic version, upgraded twice, which means an estimated static agility of 1731 (3935 AGI proc) plus the static secondary stats.

    The more important thing, is static really better? Damage comes in bursts. Black Arrow on target, Lock and Load for SV and then the obvious Bestial Wrath bursts for BM. If you can time the trinkets with these bursts (should be pretty easy with watching the ICD) which is easier said for BM of course isn't that more beneficial?

    The average agility of bottle should also be closer to 1260. It has a 45 second ICD with a 15% proc on any damage (not crit like DMC) and a 20 second uptime.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Suffocatingsight View Post
    Oh i agree, But the average agi of bottle is what he stated 995, windswept is not far from that, but with a proc far better, not to mention it always coincides with relic.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-09 at 04:14 PM ----------

    A proc will not increase srs damage like it would other classes is what i was getting at.
    SrS is about 20% of my damage, and with the static agi it's consistently higher damage rather than for 20 seconds every minute. now if it were to carry the damage through like SW:P, i think it would be better.
    A haste proc? Really not that great.

    Well, lets look at where they got that number 995, for the RF Bottle (15% proc chance on white hits / 20sec duration / 45sec ICD) - that means he is giving it roughly a 12.5 second "proc time" (sounds about right since it only procs off auto attacks):

    20 second duration / 57.5 (45 + 12.5 seconds) time between procs = 0.3478 * 2866 agi = 996 average agi., in addition to 956 passive mastery (which most would argue is better than haste).

    Windswept pages (15% proc chance on white hits / 20sec duration / 65sec ICD), using that same 12.5 "proc time" as it has the same proc chance and method:

    20 second duration / 77.5 (65 + 12.5) time between procs = 0.258 * 3386 haste = 873 average haste, in addition to 847 passive agility.

    Final: LFR Bottle - 996 avg agi, 956 passive mastery
    Pages - 847 passive agi, 873 average haste

    Of course averaging haste isn't really the best way to look at it, but it gets a bit too complicated to get deeper than that. Bottle seems the clear winner to me.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-09 at 04:34 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by refire View Post
    The average agility of bottle should also be closer to 1260. It has a 45 second ICD with a 15% proc on any damage (not crit like DMC) and a 20 second uptime.
    And only procs off white attacks with a 15% proc rate. Proccing immediately after the ICD drops would be quite rare.

    http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/2...pt-ii/#post296

  8. #8
    Forgetting that the upgraded windswept is 913 and a higher proc. I can see how the bottle is better, but barely. Maybe i just have an underground hatred for agi procs. I'll do some personal tests to see which i like more and which gives better numbers for me, always comes out better than other peoples theory crafting anyways.

    Thanks for the info, some of which i did not know!

  9. #9
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    I'm sure your knowledge outweighs the knowledge of the rest of the entire hunter community. H-Bottle is BiS. Period. Bottle at any level outdoes any trinket at similar level and below. The exception being the DMF Relic, which is, guess what, another agility proc trinket.

  10. #10
    I'm sure your knowledge outweighs the knowledge of the rest of the entire hunter community. H-Bottle is BiS. Period. Bottle at any level outdoes any trinket at similar level and below. The exception being the DMF Relic, which is, guess what, another agility proc trinket.
    Funny because you're both wrong about the community being right and claiming that they believe it to be the best, because the majority of people say terror and relic are bis. you must be a pretty good hunter, eh?

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-09 at 07:45 PM ----------

    The majority of the worlds population is religious, are you? think about your logic rather than being told something is right, question everything you ignorant fuck.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-09 at 07:47 PM ----------

    Not to mention that i was debating static agi with a secondary proc over a secondary stat with agi proc and not relic which is the besst of both, you're a special kind of stupid, aren't you?

    Infracted. Way over the line. Flaming is not tolerated here
    Last edited by Darsithis; 2013-01-10 at 03:56 AM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Spiralphoenix View Post

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-09 at 04:34 PM ----------

    [/COLOR]

    And only procs off white attacks with a 15% proc rate. Proccing immediately after the ICD drops would be quite rare.

    http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/2...pt-ii/#post296
    I think you're misinterpreting what he's saying.

    Bottle of Infinite Stars – 15% chance on direct white/melee/ranged/harmful-spell landing, 45 sec ICD.

    IE. A 15% chance on a direct white hit, a direct melee hit, a direct ranged hit, or a direct harmful spell landing. Serpent sting, black arrow, explosive shot, and the MM bleed all shouldn't proc it, every other damaging move should. Ie. Arcane, glaive toss, etc. I am unsure about pets but it would be easy enough to test yourself if interested.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Dald View Post
    It has a low internal CD and a long duration, giving it fantastic up-time. The normal version equals out to around 995 agility.
    You are correct on everything but the average agility from Bottle of Infinite Stars. Normal mode bottles gives 1438 agility on average not upgraded.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suffocatingsight View Post
    I plan on switching to it, even with my lack of understanding. I played rogue for 7 years and spriest for 2, both of their dots were updated when applied and if refreshed via mf it kept the higher damage rolling.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-09 at 03:48 PM ----------


    I'm aware of this, but my real problem with understanding this is that static agility gives static ap, which in turn increases my srs damage indefinitely. a proc does not increase it. now i can see the proc being useful for other damaging abilities, but the static agility will be almost as much-or more-useful than that. As far as i've seen, the hunter community is the worst theory crafters.
    Serpent Sting used to be refreshed like this for MM back in... T8? T9? It hasn't behaved like that since wrath.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-09 at 05:10 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Suffocatingsight View Post
    Funny because you're both wrong about the community being right and claiming that they believe it to be the best, because the majority of people say terror and relic are bis. you must be a pretty good hunter, eh?

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-09 at 07:45 PM ----------

    The majority of the worlds population is religious, are you? think about your logic rather than being told something is right, question everything you ignorant fuck.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-09 at 07:47 PM ----------

    Not to mention that i was debating static agi with a secondary proc over a secondary stat with agi proc and not relic which is the besst of both, you're a special kind of stupid, aren't you?
    Who might that be?

  14. #14
    http://www.maxdps.com/hunter/survival.php
    http://www.icy-veins.com/survival-hu...t-best-in-slot

    Here are two quick ones i've found that i know people use. I can find more.
    EDIT:

    http://www.wowbestinslot.com/hunter/beastmastery/index
    I think that you are right in saying Bottle is BiS for beastmastery in most cases. I'm not playing bm, the single target difference is too little for me to switch, and i have seen sims saying SV is higher.
    Last edited by Suffocatingsight; 2013-01-10 at 03:08 AM.

  15. #15
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    LoL at citing MaxDPS for anything. Plus, Icyveins is A) only saying it is BiS for SV (???, lolwut) and B) is saying that because it is using the false assumption that haste is better for SV than mastery, which isn't true since at least the SrS buff, and was probably never as exacerbated as people thought it to be. Going for the haste/mastery neck over the crit/mastery neck for BiS SV? WTF. Going for tier shoulders (expertise/haste), by far our worst piece? H-Feng cloak BiS (haste/expertise) over H-Garalon cloak (crit/mastery)? These pieces are a joke.


    Terror is not BiS, though H-Terror is pretty close to Relic and can be interchanged with relic for 2nd trinket.

    H-Bottle is outright *the best trinket in this tier.*

    Edit: Also, I'm not one to flash my bonafides on the forum, but I'm a 9/16H hunter, and we have several 10/16H+ hunters on these forums. Truefire (Blood Legion's hunter) even talked about the trinkets he uses, thosse being H-Bottle and H-Terror (he prefers the more stable proccing of Terror even though it has a much longer ICD and poorer proc than Relic). You should probably not come into a forum with little-to-no-posting history and pretend you know what's best for the class because you looked it up on a website which is a) a general purpose DPS website, and B) not modelling hunters correctly.
    Last edited by eschatological; 2013-01-10 at 03:15 AM.

  16. #16
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    Jesus christ maxdps?

    icy veins?

    wowbestinslot? are you fucking trolling?

    all of those mean jack shit to anyone who knows the first thing about playing this class.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    LoL at citing MaxDPS for anything. Plus, Icyveins is A) only saying it is BiS for SV (???, lolwut) and B) is saying that because it is using the false assumption that haste is better for SV than mastery, which isn't true since at least the SrS buff, and was probably never as exacerbated as people thought it to be. Going for the haste/mastery neck over the crit/mastery neck for BiS SV? WTF. Going for tier shoulders (expertise/haste), by far our worst piece? H-Feng cloak BiS (haste/expertise) over H-Garalon cloak (crit/mastery)? These pieces are a joke.


    Terror is not BiS, though H-Terror is pretty close to Relic and can be interchanged with relic for 2nd trinket.

    H-Bottle is outright *the best trinket in this tier.*

    Edit: Also, I'm not one to flash my bonafides on the forum, but I'm a 9/16H hunter, and we have several 10/16H+ hunters on these forums. Truefire (Blood Legion's hunter) even talked about the trinkets he uses, thosse being H-Bottle and H-Terror (he prefers the more stable proccing of Terror even though it has a much longer ICD and poorer proc than Relic). You should probably not come into a forum with little-to-no-posting history and pretend you know what's best for the class because you looked it up on a website which is a) a general purpose DPS website, and B) not modelling hunters correctly.
    Quote Originally Posted by bewsh View Post
    Jesus christ maxdps?

    icy veins?

    wowbestinslot? are you fucking trolling?

    all of those mean jack shit to anyone who knows the first thing about playing this class.
    These guys know.

    13/16H hunter here and I will be using H Bottle and H TiTM. The relic is a ~100 dps gain over H TiTM on paper, but in practice you might not get so lucky. H TiTM also gets more out of being upgraded compared to the relic, it isn't linear.

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  18. #18
    I never claimed i know what's best for the class hence i asked. hilarious that you assume because you are doing some heroics you're better. I came here with the false assumption that dots were the same for all classes and was wrong, i've changed my strategy accordingly and was wondering if it was right. i cited those not because i follow them-because i don't- but to prove there are people out there that believe this. Many in the hunter community of theory crafters claim they are right but don't explain why.

  19. #19
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    Your very first post indicates that you know that SrS updates dynamically (at the very least pseudo-dynamically through CoS refreshes) - and that this somehow means the "proc" of a trinket won't carry over to SrS when refreshed by CoS. Don't exactly know why you thought that, but it's literally a contradiction of your knowledge of dynamic updating.

    With the way SrS works according to most-that being updating dynamically with cobra shot-Static agility should be worth more than a proc as the AP bonus won't be carried through. Here is my Armory, http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...g/Moneo/simple. Haven't done regular raids yet, too lazy to find a group.
    Someone in the next post said that Bottle was the better trinket, granted without explanation or addressing the supposed proc issue you raised. You then, in your 2nd post and the third in this thread, said 1) that the hunter community was generally one of the worst theorycrafting communities (which I've found to be generally untrue), and 2) reiterate that the proc doesn't translate to the SrS with absolutely no proof.

    4th post: Someone questions why you would think SrS isn't updated by a proc.....probably because it is.

    5th post: You say it doesn't, citing some (unlinked, unverified, and contradictory) anecdotal evidence of your own SrS.

    Then multiple people reiterate a few things: Bottle is BiS in whatever tier of comparison, that the proc updates.

    You then make the assertion that the proc of agility with static secondary stat can't be better (even though it has been mathed out to be) than the static agility with a secondary proc, while also implying that Relic must somehow be "the best" because it is static agi with procced agi, even though you've already outlined a disbelief in the power of agi-proccing items.

    Then you use badly researched, unreliable sites to supposedly back your claim that a static agi/secondary proc trinket must be better than the opposite found in Bottle. Which it isn't.

    And finally, you backpedal, claim DoTs don't dynamically update in other classes (which I'm not even sure is true as of MoP) and this led to your belief for SrS, and then say you cited those sites not to back up your claim that H-Terror was better than H-Bottle (which you did, even though it isn't), but as an indication of their popularity of the belief that DoTs somehow don't dynamically update - whereas those sites are incorrect for a totally different reason. You also claim no one in the hunter community explains their theorycrafting, yet if I search the last 5 pages on these forums I see numerous trinket threads where people say the same thing over again - H-Bottle is BiS, largely due to its large agi proc on a very low ICD, giving it fantastic uptime, and downplaying TiTM because of its large ICD (105 seconds) and poor proc. Some people even will go into the disparity of "on crit" procs on Relic annd how that makes it a less reliable proccing trinket. Hell, people mathed it out for you in POSTS NUMBER 6-7.

    It's rather insulting for you to come here and say our theorycrafting is suspect, while producing wrong information and conjecture with nothing to back it up, and then claim the intellectual superiority of your own theorycrafting as opposed to, say, femaledwarf, a hunter sim which a lot of care has been put into. If I sound a bit miffed, it's because we have people like you who come here once for a day to ask these same questions, and then argue when they *feel* things must be different, even when they've been shown not to be.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Suffocatingsight View Post
    I never claimed i know what's best for the class hence i asked. hilarious that you assume because you are doing some heroics you're better. I came here with the false assumption that dots were the same for all classes and was wrong, i've changed my strategy accordingly and was wondering if it was right. i cited those not because i follow them-because i don't- but to prove there are people out there that believe this. Many in the hunter community of theory crafters claim they are right but don't explain why.
    Orly?

    Here you are quoting eschatological saying he's wrong and inherently saying you're right.
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    H-Bottle is BiS. Period. Bottle at any level outdoes any trinket at similar level and below.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suffocatingsight View Post
    Funny because you're both wrong about the community being right and claiming that they believe it to be the best, because the majority of people say terror and relic are bis. you must be a pretty good hunter, eh

    Here you are saying you agree that it's BiS for BM but not for SV. Again saying someone else is wrong and you are right.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suffocatingsight View Post
    I think that you are right in saying Bottle is BiS for beastmastery in most cases. I'm not playing bm, the single target difference is too little for me to switch, and i have seen sims saying SV is higher.

    It sure seems like you claim to know what is best for the class but have nothing to base your proclamations on. Then you link sites that are completely unreliable listing the wrong items for the BiS lists to enhance your argument about the bottle not being BiS. Not even trinkets, just simple items that with any common sense you can see that they aren't BiS.


    If you aren't trying to claim you know what's best for the class why argue about it saying that they are wrong when you said for yourself that you don't know what is the best. Make your posts less ambiguous is the advice I can give you.

    No one also said that since we killed H modes we're better than you. I think you are just thinking we're attacking you when we aren't. We're not going to base theorycrafting and trinket selection on hunters that can't even get it. The best hunters in the world are using H Bottle + H TiTM. If you are playing on the Asian servers 25 man raids get 2/4 upgrades already on the item in raid drops making it even better for them to grab this combo.

    TL;DR Word your posts better (less ambiguity if you are genuinely not trying to do what you did) and try not to be condescending in them.
    BiS : H bottle + H TiTM
    Most definitely use the LFR bottle over the upgraded Windswept pages.

    I apologize if I come off as a dick, I'm just trying to clear up some confusion in this thread.

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