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  1. #1

    Do you think gear normalisation would work for PvP?

    I'm not a PvPer myself, at least not competitive. I sometimes do random BGs for something to do, but never got into arenas or rated BGs.

    I am just wondering if collecting gear, or character progression is a big factor for those that are into competitive PvP?

    I see a lot of complaints about gear disparity being incredibly difficult to overcome. RBGs giving easier points and more gear. Missing out on playing for the first few weeks being almost impossible to catch up. And so on.

    Would gear normalisation be a possible solution if character progression isn't as important as *balanced (obviously not including class balance issues) combat?

    Obviously PvPers would need rewarding in some other way if they aren't getting gear for their increase in rating. Spending just a couple of minutes thinking about it would transmog options be something you'd be interested in, additional titles or vanity items? Or can you think of another more suitable reward?

    Is this something PvPers would like to see in some shape or form, or do you think it would lead to a bigger divide between PvPers and PvEers? Jealousy that PvEers get to progress their gear through raiding?

    Your thoughts please.

  2. #2
    It would fix a great many issues in PvP, but we're given to believe by Mods and MVPs on the official forums that "without the gear grind many people would stop doing PvP because there's no incentive to do it". Tbh, I find that a load of bollocks. If anything more people would join as they actually stand a fighting chance mid-season or if they're looking to get into PvP after they're bored of Sha-slaying.

    For me personally, gear isn't why I PvP. I don't feel any sense of progression in PvP, there's on competition and the push to improve my gear to stay competitive. If there wasn't that push to get better gear I'd probably enjoy PvP as I'd get to sit in random Bgs without having to gear up or do Arena and RBGs to get CP in order to get gear that makes me survive or be able to kill just about anyone.

    They should just give awesome looking transmogs for 2.2k+ instead of Elite Gear, better weapon Models and so on. I doubt it'll ever happen, the art team is just too lazy these days to even consider asking them to put in any more effort than is required to recolour a skin 3 times. Probably be nice to have some mounts available with rating to give those who want to show off that they're better than you or just animation effects that can be bought with CP that are unlocked as you get higher ranking.
    Last edited by Matt0193; 2013-01-10 at 12:54 AM.
    "Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it." - Ayn Rand

  3. #3
    Titan apepi's Avatar
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    I don't really think so, it helps keep a certain immersion(if it as any left...). I would rather just let people get a small amount of conquest points by doing arenas/ratedbgs after you are done hitting your cap but not too much to matter but enough for those who actually love to pvp for hours to get something.

    Most people get there cap and just stop pvping.
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Thassarian View Post
    It would fix a great many issues in PvP, but we're given to believe by Mods and MVPs on the official forums that "without the gear grind many people would stop doing PvP because there's no incentive to do it". Tbh, I find that a load of bollocks. If anything more people would join as they actually stand a fighting chance mid-season or if they're looking to get into PvP after they're bored of Sha-slaying.

    For me personally, gear isn't why I PvP. I don't feel any sense of progression in PvP, there's on competition and the push to improve my gear to stay competitive. If there wasn't that push to get better gear I'd probably enjoy PvP as I'd get to sit in random Bgs without having to gear up or do Arena and RBGs to get CP in order to get gear that makes me survive or be able to kill just about anyone.

    They should just give awesome looking transmogs for 2.2k+ instead of Elite Gear, better weapon Models and so on. I doubt it'll ever happen, the art team is just too lazy these days to even consider asking them to put in any more effort than is required to recolour a skin 3 times. Probably be nice to have some mounts available with rating to give those who want to show off that they're better than you or just animation effects that can be bought with CP that are unlocked as you get higher ranking.
    That's certainly an interesting idea. Animation effects. I assume you mean spell effects? I think character animations are limited to the character model. But the spell effects could be changed, I guess. Make a lightning bolt into a wrath or something along those lines?

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-10 at 01:04 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by apepi View Post
    I don't really think so, it helps keep a certain immersion(if it as any left...). I would rather just let people get a small amount of conquest points by doing arenas/ratedbgs after you are done hitting your cap but not too much to matter but enough for those who actually love to pvp for hours to get something.

    Most people get there cap and just stop pvping.
    I don't think your idea would help solve the issue as people see it. If anything it would make it worse.

    I did expect some people would think like you suggest though. But is their reason for PvPing to the cap and then stopping just a result of the way PvP is at the moment? Would it not be more about the competition and fun of playing if the required stats are already there, whenever you start?

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by mswhiskerson View Post
    That's certainly an interesting idea. Animation effects. I assume you mean spell effects? I think character animations are limited to the character model. But the spell effects could be changed, I guess. Make a lightning bolt into a wrath or something along those lines?[COLOR="red"]
    I was watching Cartoonz' stream the other day and I noticed he was running around with the Shadowmourne swirls as a spell effect. Granted he was using tMorph, but it's that sort thing that I'm getting at. Animation/Spell effects that make you stand out with enough variation that there's something for everyone and not everyone's using the same one, hopefully.
    "Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it." - Ayn Rand

  6. #6
    I think that normalization would be perfect, as long as it only happened when you zoned into arena/bg/rbg and you still had w/e gear when you zoned out. Then pvp rewards could be some form of face melting gear to allow wpvp, maybe something of equal ilvl to raiding gear, but would work against players or something. Otherwise gear normalization would screw over wpvp.

  7. #7
    The best solution might be to simply allow people to actually catch up. For example for every week passed so far their cap is increased by 1,8k they can collect later on. That way they're still behind but it isn't impossible to actually gear up.

  8. #8
    The Lightbringer Whitey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faderade View Post
    I think that normalization would be perfect, as long as it only happened when you zoned into arena/bg/rbg and you still had w/e gear when you zoned out. Then pvp rewards could be some form of face melting gear to allow wpvp, maybe something of equal ilvl to raiding gear, but would work against players or something. Otherwise gear normalization would screw over wpvp.
    I'm curious as to how it would ruin worldpvp?
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  9. #9
    hell no.

    i dont do pve, why should some hardcore raider get to come in and match my gear in an instant? can i do that in pve??

    sure its hard. its pvp. the only way this would work is if random bgs were fixed so you had an MMR. i.e.. keep me away from all the pve baddies because I want to PVP...not wait around to lose because the team cant handle unscripted events..

    this idea had good intentions but brings nothing to the table.. gear is a reward, same as in pve.

  10. #10
    Titan apepi's Avatar
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    Also gear normalastion might not be balanced from classes/specs. It may help other and hurt others.
    Time...line? Time isn't made out of lines. It is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round. ~ Caboose

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by apepi View Post
    Also gear normalastion might not be balanced from classes/specs. It may help other and hurt others.
    Then it could be balanced around that. WoW has always had problems with scaling with new expansions and new tiers. Early-expansion burst classes always outperformed DOT classes, and as more Resi and Stamina was gained DoT classes slowly became more valuable (or classes with lots of CC).

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Whitey View Post
    I'm curious as to how it would ruin worldpvp?
    I think he means ruin it compared to how structured PvP would be if normalisation were introduced.

    I wasn't thinking of it being done that way though. I thought you might be able to normalise your gear for world PvP also.

    The way I was imagining it was each player would get a certain amount of secondary stats they could reforge for their normalised PvP gear. Giving people choice how their stats are distributed. They could save 3 different reforge options for quick switching during the setup of BGs and arena battles. One reforge profile would be saved as their "favourite" or default.

    When out and about in the world to "equip" your PvP gear you select one of your reforge options and then initiate a fight with someone. For the person being attacked I imagined they would take one hit without their PvP gear on (unless they had already chosen their set) to give the attacker the advantage and then their gear would normalise to their favourite PvP reforge option and the rest of the battle would play out.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Raldazzar View Post
    hell no.

    i dont do pve, why should some hardcore raider get to come in and match my gear in an instant? can i do that in pve??
    Pretty much this. I would only be in favor of this if there is an gear normalisation in PvE aswell so I can take my PvP gear and be just as viable as an fully PvE equipped healer.

    Quote Originally Posted by mswhiskerson View Post
    I think he means ruin it compared to how structured PvP would be if normalisation were introduced.

    I wasn't thinking of it being done that way though. I thought you might be able to normalise your gear for world PvP also.

    The way I was imagining it was each player would get a certain amount of secondary stats they could reforge for their normalised PvP gear. Giving people choice how their stats are distributed. They could save 3 different reforge options for quick switching during the setup of BGs and arena battles. One reforge profile would be saved as their "favourite" or default.

    When out and about in the world to "equip" your PvP gear you select one of your reforge options and then initiate a fight with someone. For the person being attacked I imagined they would take one hit without their PvP gear on (unless they had already chosen their set) to give the attacker the advantage and then their gear would normalise to their favourite PvP reforge option and the rest of the battle would play out.
    Do I get "normalised" PvE Equip I can then reforge, enchant and gem the way I like for raiding and PvE in general? Because otherwise I don't see how this rewards PvP people in any kind of way. It makes it far easier for PvE people to get into PvP but it doesn't benefit PvPers at all.

    The only thing needed for PvP is an catch up mechanism that currently isn't existant. They might aswell allow characters to make 3/4 of the conquest points of weeks they didn't cap. For example if the normal cap is 2,2k those people can still make 1,65k later on.

    So someone who capped 3 weeks but didn't go above the standard rating would have:
    1. Week - 2,2k
    2. Week - 4,4k
    3. Week - 6,6k

    While someone who joins in week 3 can get:
    1. Week - 1,65k
    2. Week - 3,7k
    3. Week - 5,9k (2,2k for the running week, 3,7 from the previous ones)
    Last edited by Deleth; 2013-01-10 at 12:01 PM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Raldazzar View Post
    hell no.

    i dont do pve, why should some hardcore raider get to come in and match my gear in an instant? can i do that in pve??

    sure its hard. its pvp. the only way this would work is if random bgs were fixed so you had an MMR. i.e.. keep me away from all the pve baddies because I want to PVP...not wait around to lose because the team cant handle unscripted events..

    this idea had good intentions but brings nothing to the table.. gear is a reward, same as in pve.
    I thought there would be some opinions like this. But I am a little confused by the message seeming a little mixed.

    I understand not liking the lack of character progression found in collecting gear. I totally understand that. I don't understand your first line. You don't PvE, you open with that. Why does it matter if there's no gear normalisation for PvE if you don't even want to do it?

    Your next line. "Sure it's hard, it's PvP." Shouldn't PvP be difficult because you are out-skilled by a player and not because you have less time to play than someone, or that one guy did RBGs and got better gear more quickly than you because you dislike RBGs? Most of the complaints I see (that aren't class balance related) are about gearing, falling behind and not being able to catch up.

    The next part of your response is very confusing. You sound like you're a competitive PvPer. Meaning random BGs are the thing you are least concerned with? I would imagine that to be fairly accurate? You sound like you're talking about bad PvE players being on your team in random BGs and failing. How would them having good PvP gear make things any worse than they are now? If anything it's likely to make things better. And if the fear is that the opposition would have bad PvEers with good PvP gear then you'd outskill them anyway because you're a competitive PvPer, right?

    This last part of your post is really the only thing I think makes sense, or truely describes how you feel. "Gear is a reward." This is the biggest stumbling block for gear normalisation being introduced. That's why I was asking the community if there was any weight in the idea that gear balanced combat would be more valuable than the current gear for points over time model. Or if there were any rewards they could think of other than those I suggest that they thought might work instead.

    "Same as in PvE". I know the comparison exists. 2 sets of people playing different parts of the same game. I also realise that discontent is apparent between certain parts of each group. I just didn't know what is more valuable to you. A better balanced aspect of the game you enjoy, or people you don't know getting rewards you aren't interested in getting anyway. When stated like that it looks obvious, but you never know.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-10 at 12:37 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Deleth View Post
    Pretty much this. I would only be in favor of this if there is an gear normalisation in PvE aswell so I can take my PvP gear and be just as viable as an fully PvE equipped healer.


    Do I get "normalised" PvE Equip I can then reforge, enchant and gem the way I like for raiding and PvE in general? Because otherwise I don't see how this rewards PvP people in any kind of way. It makes it far easier for PvE people to get into PvP but it doesn't benefit PvPers at all.

    The only thing needed for PvP is an catch up mechanism that currently isn't existant. They might aswell allow characters to make 3/4 of the conquest points of weeks they didn't cap. For example if the normal cap is 2,2k those people can still make 1,65k later on.

    So someone who capped 3 weeks but didn't go above the standard rating would have:
    1. Week - 2,2k
    2. Week - 4,4k
    3. Week - 6,6k

    While someone who joins in week 3 can get:
    1. Week - 1,65k
    2. Week - 3,7k
    3. Week - 5,9k (2,2k for the running week, 3,7 from the previous ones)
    Following on from my response to Raldazzar:

    Gear normalisation rewards PvP by creating a more balanced combat. The better players will win (almost) every time instead of the players who play the most, or who geared the quickest. How is that not a benefit?

    PvE doesn't benefit from normalisation in the same way PvP does. Not saying that it would never benefit from normalisation, it would, but the goal of PvE is the gear for a huge portion of the scene. I think normalisation in PvE would kill the interest for a very large section of the people that do it currently. Where as I think normalisation in PvP would not only encourage more people to do it but it would make the competitive aspect (which I rightly or wrongly assume is the driving factor for most people) more balanced and therefore more fun.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by mswhiskerson View Post
    The next part of your response is very confusing. You sound like you're a competitive PvPer. Meaning random BGs are the thing you are least concerned with? I would imagine that to be fairly accurate? You sound like you're talking about bad PvE players being on your team in random BGs and failing. How would them having good PvP gear make things any worse than they are now? If anything it's likely to make things better. And if the fear is that the opposition would have bad PvEers with good PvP gear then you'd outskill them anyway because you're a competitive PvPer, right?
    How would gear normalisation benefit PvP or PvPers? Wait, right, it wouldn't. It would only help those PvE people trying to grab some achievments and rewards up to the middle range without having to put in any kind of effort while further devalue PvP turning it into an sideshow to PvE.
    This last part of your post is really the only thing I think makes sense, or truely describes how you feel. "Gear is a reward." This is the biggest stumbling block for gear normalisation being introduced. That's why I was asking the community if there was any weight in the idea that gear balanced combat would be more valuable than the current gear for points over time model. Or if there were any rewards they could think of other than those I suggest that they thought might work instead.
    Yeah, how about a similar system for PvE? We could take out the gear and give those people doing PvE some other purely cosmectic rewards. That way the transition between PvP and PvE would also become easier and you guys would still be outskill them and thus progress faster. It would make progress and world firsts more balanced since gear wouldn't play a role.
    Gear normalisation rewards PvP by creating a more balanced combat. The better players will win (almost) every time instead of the players who play the most, or who geared the quickest. How is that not a benefit?
    Less inclination to actually play. More reason to hog ratings and not play after the first 1-2 weeks. No reason to actually play for a great many people, might aswell just get ratings in the last few days.

    Try taking the gear out of PvE and see how people will react. Oh wait, we have that, challenge dungeons. One of the features Blizzard themselves admitted to by abysmaly unpopular.

    PvE doesn't benefit from normalisation in the same way PvP does. Not saying that it would never benefit from normalisation, it would, but the goal of PvE is the gear for a huge portion of the scene. I think normalisation in PvE would kill the interest for a very large section of the people that do it currently. Where as I think normalisation in PvP would not only encourage more people to do it but it would make the competitive aspect (which I rightly or wrongly assume is the driving factor for most people) more balanced and therefore more fun.
    You're not an PvPer yet you dare to judge what would be best for PvP or better yet, best for you. That is incredible conceited. PvE would benefit the same, as people fighting for server and world firsts wouldn't have to worry about gear. A great many people now excluded or demotivated by long and boring grinds would be able to participate.
    It would be skill and not gear that would decide who is allowed to come along and there would be far less drama over gear distibution and people having bad luck on the lfr.

    ALL your arguments can be turned around and used as excuses to etablish an similar system for PvE. All I see here is an PvE guy looking for an easy way to snatch some achievments and stuff from PvP without having to be bothered to actually work for them in any kind of way and trying to devalue PvP even more. How about we do the same to PvE?

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Deleth View Post
    How would gear normalisation benefit PvP or PvPers? Wait, right, it wouldn't. It would only help those PvE people trying to grab some achievments and rewards up to the middle range without having to put in any kind of effort while further devalue PvP turning it into an sideshow to PvE.

    Yeah, how about a similar system for PvE? We could take out the gear and give those people doing PvE some other purely cosmectic rewards. That way the transition between PvP and PvE would also become easier and you guys would still be outskill them and thus progress faster. It would make progress and world firsts more balanced since gear wouldn't play a role.

    Less inclination to actually play. More reason to hog ratings and not play after the first 1-2 weeks. No reason to actually play for a great many people, might aswell just get ratings in the last few days.

    Try taking the gear out of PvE and see how people will react. Oh wait, we have that, challenge dungeons. One of the features Blizzard themselves admitted to by abysmaly unpopular.


    You're not an PvPer yet you dare to judge what would be best for PvP or better yet, best for you. That is incredible conceited. PvE would benefit the same, as people fighting for server and world firsts wouldn't have to worry about gear. A great many people now excluded or demotivated by long and boring grinds would be able to participate.
    It would be skill and not gear that would decide who is allowed to come along and there would be far less drama over gear distibution and people having bad luck on the lfr.

    ALL your arguments can be turned around and used as excuses to etablish an similar system for PvE. All I see here is an PvE guy looking for an easy way to snatch some achievments and stuff from PvP without having to be bothered to actually work for them in any kind of way and trying to devalue PvP even more. How about we do the same to PvE?
    You completely misconstrue my intent. Not only am I not particularly interested in competitive PvP I also suggest that gear normalisation would benefit PvE.

    Your rebuttals to my sugestions (which is all they are; suggestions) are pretty aggressive. Needlessly so. I don't see why we can't have a reasonable discussion as to why or why not normalisation would be suitable for PvP. It's perfectly fine for you to not agree with it but to claim, erroneously, that as a non-PvPer I can't see the issue, help to solve it or that I'm trying to create a system that would benefit myself or other PvEers is inaccurate.

    I have already stated how I thought PvP would benefit from normalisation. It would create more balanced combat from a gearing perspective.

    Not once have I suggested PvE would not benefit from gear normalisation. I even say it would. But it is not something I have given much thought to and was not my intent to discuss in this thread. That is why I keep trying to bring the discussion back to the pros and cons from a PvP perspective. Ignoring PvE which really hasn't that much relevance if we're just discussing normalisation as a solution to PvP gear balance.

    If "rating hogging" would be an issue then perhaps the rating system could also do with a rework? I'm not particularly up to speed with how the ratings system works currently and why it would be designed to benefit people who play in the first 1-2 weeks over those who win a huge percentage of their games, so you'll have to excuse my ignorance.

    I'm confused though, as to why a PvPer would rather sit on a rating than play the portion of the game they enjoy the most, especially so if it were more balanced?

  17. #17
    Moderator Nicola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mswhiskerson View Post
    I'm confused though, as to why a PvPer would rather sit on a rating than play the portion of the game they enjoy the most, especially so if it were more balanced?
    It's mainly fotm rerollers that sit on a rating while their class is OP, other players just play their game. In the last week of the season, many players try to push for high rank tho.

    To stay OT: gear normalization would help to balance, but it will worse the QQ about balance by a lot. Now people can blame their loses on gear, when gear is normalized, they'll just blame it on the class/comp/whatever...
    I pretty much have to agree with everything Deleth said, and usually, I don't agree with him lol.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Deleth View Post
    Try taking the gear out of PvE and see how people will react. Oh wait, we have that, challenge dungeons. One of the features Blizzard themselves admitted to by abysmaly unpopular.
    Source?

    10char

  19. #19
    Warchief Henkdejager's Avatar
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    The honor set should be free, then with the aditional honor you can buy the weapon / upgrade the HONOR GEAR ONLY! Vanity items , mounts , transmog gear and such. With qonquest gear there should be rewarder with qonquest point ( NOT UPGRADEABLE) and also reward vanity items , mounts and transmog sets when you are full QC geared

  20. #20
    Moderator Nicola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Henkdejager View Post
    The honor set should be free, then with the aditional honor you can buy the weapon / upgrade the HONOR GEAR ONLY! Vanity items , mounts , transmog gear and such. With qonquest gear there should be rewarder with qonquest point ( NOT UPGRADEABLE) and also reward vanity items , mounts and transmog sets when you are full QC geared
    Sure... lets give everyone free honor gear next season that will be superior to the current lfr gear.
    Something tells me this is not going to happen...

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