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  1. #161
    Elemental Lord Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thaladhrun View Post
    Exactly. And warlocks still are not fantastic in PVP. But we're more built around mobility than they are. Their rationale for not baselining Scorch is nonsense.
    Without dispels, they're amazing.

    Without dispels or CCs on the Mage during DF, Frost is amazing.

    Notice the pattern going on here, with Mages having a slight disadvantage with CC and Warlocks with dispels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Washuwa View Post
    mobility? lol..... scorch? with pyro procs?.... ice lances??? with finger of frost... ... oh man this mages....

    lets see.. shadowpriest.. no longer devouring plague... so shadow word pain while moving( not direct damage is a dot).. unbelivable
    Pyro proccs are Fire only, and I'm not really getting into Fire atm.

    Okay, so Scorch and Mage Bomb (Shadow DoTs) proccs FoF and BF (Mind Spike and Mind Blast proccs), except our everything is reliant on Proccs. (Shadow Priest is mostly from DoTs).

    Notice the pattern.

    Also, one FoF isn't going to do crap. The only way to kill someone is in a DF.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thaladhrun View Post
    Most of that applies to fire. Don't think anyone will contest that fire is mobile.
    Certainly not. I fully acknowledge Fire is an amazing specc mobility-wise in terms of PvP only (in PvE, they're okay, but not nearly as good as, say, Warlocks, Hunters, or Shamans).

    Frost on the other hand... Not so much. Yes, if we have PROCCS, we're quite mobile, but Scorch and Mage Bomb alone will not yield good results. The only way to kill someone is in a DF anyways, and we'll usually just get CC'd or the DF will be dispelled during.

    Regardless, this is trailing off topic. This thread is about how Blazing Speed's current PTR build will be replacing Blink and what happens because of that. Our rotation in PvP is an entirely different story.

    Progression pre-nerfed: [T17] 6/7H; 0/10N

  2. #162
    Legendary! Thelxi's Avatar
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    Honestly MoP is the first expansion where I feel Blizzard failed mages, starting with the talents.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Thelxi View Post
    Honestly MoP is the first expansion where I feel Blizzard failed mages, starting with the talents.
    ^this. The lack of creativity is staggering, especially in the face of Warlocks.


    "the dark below, new mage spell, mages must sit by themself outside the raid on their 1yrd rune to craft mana buns for the casters that actually do dmg" -Vykina

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Swizzle View Post
    While we're at it, give us the tanking of Prot Warriors, the healing of a Mistweaver, and the stuns and silences of a Rogue.

    Seriously...stop comparing classes, it serves no purpose than to show that you just want things other classes have cause "cause fuck that's why".
    Comparing hybrids other roles (tanking and healing) doesn't make sense.

    Comparing two caster classes in world where casters dpsing on the move is an issue (according to GC it is) is totally valid.

    KJC is stupidly OP (and you can cheat movement penalty). Even locks admit that.

    Also, we're talking about a mage talent, which happen to gimp our moobility in PvE (5.2 Blazing speed). All mages can pick it. Why can't we compare to other classes talents? After all, if mage ability to keep high output on the move isn't as good as other ranged, guess who will replace mages? Oh yeah, classes with high dps even while moving.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by bigfootbigd View Post
    Blizzard seriously cant make up their minds with talent changes this expansion. Blazing Speed, Second Wind, blade flurry, taste for blood has been changed back and forth so many damn times...
    Yet, if they left half those talents as they were at the start, Youd be fucking shout OP NERF NERF NERF

    Its called fucking Trail & error with Class balancing

  6. #166
    Elemental Lord Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rotted View Post
    Its called fucking Trail & error with Class balancing
    So by your logic, their Trial & Error with Mages is: Nerf when OP, don't touch when they have seriously bad QoL issues?

    Gotcha.

    Progression pre-nerfed: [T17] 6/7H; 0/10N

  7. #167
    I've been following this thread every day since post #1. It almost started with some good solutions but then it stopped going somewhere.

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    They should just replace Blazing Speed with Improved Blink, honestly.
    I miss improved blink so so much

  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by semaphore View Post
    I miss improved blink so so much
    Seriously T.T

    Progression pre-nerfed: [T17] 6/7H; 0/10N

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Franksredhot View Post
    I've been following this thread every day since post #1. It almost started with some good solutions but then it stopped going somewhere.
    You are not contributing whit that post either.

    Until Blazing Speed can get you through ground effects (like for example fire at HM Mimiron when it was relevant) without taking damage like Blink can, I will consider BSpeed inferior.

    Improved blink would be a better solution, yet it would still had to compete one of the two shields + blink, that combo can save your life even when speed alone can't. The best would be if they reworked the first two tiers.

    edit: clarified a bit.
    Last edited by Difuid; 2013-01-16 at 07:42 PM.

  11. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Difuid View Post
    You are not contributing whit that post either.

    Until Blazing Speed can get you through ground effects (like for example fire at HM Mimiron when it was relevant) without taking damage like Blink can, I will consider BSpeed inferior.

    Improved blink would be a better solution, yet it would still had to compete two shields that can save your life even when speed can't.
    It could in some situations, and hell, I'd just take it because it's more fun.

    BS isn't that fun to me because it's too short, and especially with 5.2's change, removing Blink is even less fun (and worthless).

    Progression pre-nerfed: [T17] 6/7H; 0/10N

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Thaladhrun View Post
    Most of that applies to fire. Don't think anyone will contest that fire is mobile.
    Yes and no. Fire is mobile if and only you take scorch. Without that, it is the worst spec for mobile damage. That is kind of the problem with the first tier talents. You have to take scorch. It is not a choice.

    I still think scorch needs to be baseline for all or for fire while frost and arcane get lance and barrage adjusted to provide appropriate mobile damage. Tier 1 talents need to become all mobile. Blazing speed can then compete against other mobility. And tier 2 becomes a shield tier.

    The only way I ever see blazing speed becoming a viable choice is if it competes against other mobility talents. Even if you made it last 10 secs a shield would be better on almost every fight.

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by DeLos View Post
    Yes and no. Fire is mobile if and only you take scorch. Without that, it is the worst spec for mobile damage. That is kind of the problem with the first tier talents. You have to take scorch. It is not a choice.
    This is where I have to disagree. Sure scorch helps, but Fire has 3 instants on its arsenal that can be timed so that when you move, you can use them. Those being HS, Inferno blast and dot refresh. And you can repeat that fairly often. It just needs some brainwork and getting used to to pull off, we can just dps full on without really caring abt any mechanics, as we just move for few instants, wait till they are there again and move again, with no dps loss at all..

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    This is where I have to disagree. Sure scorch helps, but Fire has 3 instants on its arsenal that can be timed so that when you move, you can use them. Those being HS, Inferno blast and dot refresh. And you can repeat that fairly often. It just needs some brainwork and getting used to to pull off, we can just dps full on without really caring abt any mechanics, as we just move for few instants, wait till they are there again and move again, with no dps loss at all..
    Several problems.
    1) Hot Streak is a proc. You aren't nuking, you don't get the proc. So, no scorch = no nukes = no hot streak.
    2) Inferno blast is needed to generate a crit for Hot streak. Even ignoring needing to save it for heating up, the CD makes it terrible dps. Both frost and arcane have fire blast as well in addition to ice lance or barrage. So, again fire has less mobile damage then the other specs.
    3) Bombs are talents. The same for every spec. Refreshing said dot is the same for fire, frost or arcane. No advantage to fire. Not that it is a significant dps move anyway. And you cannot plan to refresh your bomb when you are going to move. You refresh when it drops, whether you move or not.

    Both arcane and frost have more instant casts then fire. Both specs have faster cast nukes to stop, cast, stop cast, etc. So, if you ignore scorch frost and arcane both kick fire's butt on mobile damage. Scorch is the best choice for both frost and arcane. For fire it is a no brainer.

  15. #175
    The Lightbringer Zathrendar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rotted View Post
    Yet, if they left half those talents as they were at the start, Youd be fucking shout OP NERF NERF NERF

    Its called fucking Trail & error with Class balancing
    Blatantly stupid ideas should not even be trialled.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-16 at 05:39 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Fennixx View Post
    Comparing hybrids other roles (tanking and healing) doesn't make sense.

    Comparing two caster classes in world where casters dpsing on the move is an issue (according to GC it is) is totally valid.

    KJC is stupidly OP (and you can cheat movement penalty). Even locks admit that.
    If you can "cheat" it, that needs to be addressed. The talent is not "OP" by itself, though. Destro would be even less useful without it in PVP.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-16 at 05:41 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by DeLos View Post
    Yes and no. Fire is mobile if and only you take scorch. Without that, it is the worst spec for mobile damage. That is kind of the problem with the first tier talents. You have to take scorch. It is not a choice.
    Well I was pointing to the fact that baselining Scorch would have no impact on fire since fire PVPers will take it anyway. But you're right, you do need that talent for fire's mobility to truly come into play.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by DeLos View Post
    Several problems.
    1) Hot Streak is a proc. You aren't nuking, you don't get the proc. So, no scorch = no nukes = no hot streak.
    2) Inferno blast is needed to generate a crit for Hot streak. Even ignoring needing to save it for heating up, the CD makes it terrible dps. Both frost and arcane have fire blast as well in addition to ice lance or barrage. So, again fire has less mobile damage then the other specs.
    3) Bombs are talents. The same for every spec. Refreshing said dot is the same for fire, frost or arcane. No advantage to fire. Not that it is a significant dps move anyway. And you cannot plan to refresh your bomb when you are going to move. You refresh when it drops, whether you move or not.

    Both arcane and frost have more instant casts then fire. Both specs have faster cast nukes to stop, cast, stop cast, etc. So, if you ignore scorch frost and arcane both kick fire's butt on mobile damage. Scorch is the best choice for both frost and arcane. For fire it is a no brainer.
    I dont know if you are even playing the same game as I am.. Seriously most movement in this game is move 1-2 secs stay put for 10 and then move again.. there are fairly few fights thats need amazing ammounts of movement, only 1 that comes to my mind is Zorlok, but that is a bit special case.

    After reading your post, I know I can't change your mind, but to the other people here:

    1) So? You have 40-45% crit rate with fireball, as if you are not going to get a crit?
    2) And the cd of inferno blast is what? Yes 8 seconds.. And using fireblast as arcane? rofl its nowhere even near the same as using inferno blast as fire, inferno blast is in your dps rotation, fireblast is not. Same goes for arcane barrage. You cant just go and compare the number of spells..
    3) Saying arcane has more instants as fire is really hilarious..

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Difuid View Post
    Improved blink would be a better solution, yet it would still had to compete two shields that can save your life even when speed can't. The best would be if they reworked the first two tiers.
    They could always bake in a small defensive bonus with the speed buff, like the original Improved Blink -25% reduced chance to be hit. Obviously it would need to be updated to bring it up to current standards (i.e. less RNG), but you get the idea: something that makes you slippery instead of tank-y.

  18. #178
    I think the logic on this change is a bit odd.

    It's a good idea in general, but having Blazing Speed be a special snowflake that replaces Blink at the same time as giving up major survival talents for it, when the other 2 options give you that survival utility PLUS Blink, ends up making it very unappealing.

    Sure, it IS better than Blink, but is it better than Blink + Ice Barrier? I doubt it.

    They're having us choose between slightly improving an ability vs keeping that ability and getting something better with it.

  19. #179
    Elemental Lord Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    I dont know if you are even playing the same game as I am.. Seriously most movement in this game is move 1-2 secs stay put for 10 and then move again.. there are fairly few fights thats need amazing ammounts of movement, only 1 that comes to my mind is Zorlok, but that is a bit special case.

    After reading your post, I know I can't change your mind, but to the other people here:

    1) So? You have 40-45% crit rate with fireball, as if you are not going to get a crit?
    2) And the cd of inferno blast is what? Yes 8 seconds.. And using fireblast as arcane? rofl its nowhere even near the same as using inferno blast as fire, inferno blast is in your dps rotation, fireblast is not. Same goes for arcane barrage. You cant just go and compare the number of spells..
    3) Saying arcane has more instants as fire is really hilarious..
    I think the thing that concerns me most is your apparent disregard for people who get poor RNG with 10, 15, 20 fireballs in a row and fail to see a crit (yes, it happens all the time). Also, why did you call Imperial Vizier "Zorlok"? No one knows him by that name .-.;

    Progression pre-nerfed: [T17] 6/7H; 0/10N

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    I think the thing that concerns me most is your apparent disregard for people who get poor RNG with 10, 15, 20 fireballs in a row and fail to see a crit (yes, it happens all the time). Also, why did you call Imperial Vizier "Zorlok"? No one knows him by that name .-.;
    Yes, but that might happen once in a fight, and as arcane you will rage each time you have to move, interupt your normal rotation, recast RoP and start again..

    And you don't call President Obama simply President, Its either President Obama or just Obama.. Same goes for Imperial Vizier Zorlok, given there is only 1 Imperial Vizier in the game, but still.
    Last edited by mrgreenthump; 2013-01-16 at 09:23 PM.

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