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  1. #81
    Its an interesting concept with its own pros and cons. Bright side the resto 4 piece (in which rejuv gets stronger with each tick) - will lead to a lot more overhealing (except on a constant damage fight like garalon) - which in turn will charge the shrooms faster.

    Kinda skimmed some of the math/mechanics posts but shroom healing is capped at 6 targets for max value and then divided by # of targets healed, just like healing rain and sanctuary. IIRC.

    Certainly gives some options of using them right away after you place them for small healing (standard as now) or letting them sit for larger burst after a min or 2. Optimistic, but waiting to see more balance and number run throughs on ptr before i cheer or jeer.

  2. #82
    People are never going to go for the "stack up for healing, or even "move for healing" approach if it costs DPS, especially if another healer can do it without that approach. There's a reason they have had to change mistweaver's mastery in 5.2.
    Also, you can't even remotely compare shrooms to healing rain or sanctuary. Both of those can be casted on the group's CURRENT position, and has no wind-up time apart from the cast itself. Both of those are also very small heal ticks, that will constantly help to top off the group, while the burst from stacked shrooms is a one-time-every 1-2 minutes thing.

    Just to consider the current tier, on heroic 25, and where shrooms are effective:

    Stoneguards - no, constant movement for bombs/amethyst pools, no big bursts of sudden damage that can be planned around.
    Feng - yes, Epicenter/Arcane vortex (Arcane is usually chosen for first phase, which means that you won't get to use charged shrooms unless your raid lets you place them, and waits for you to fill them up, and you then fill another pair up over the shield phase going into epicenter).
    Garajal - no, lack of sudden bursts of damage, maybe apart from the very last part of the enrage burn. I guess it could be argued they're usefull.
    Spirit kings - no, movement with no chance of being sure where you'll end up due to flankings/volleys/arrows/adds/running idiotic mobs.
    Elegon - no burst healing required, but the last phase could argueably make it usefull, as there's constant raid damage going out, and it'll help topping that off.
    Emperors - Yes and no. Due to the nature of the constantly ticking AOE damage, you won't overheal for alot. You also won't ever find the entire raid in one spot (ranged/healers won't go in melee due to dance, melee won't stand with ranged/healers), and you won't find the entire raid at a low percentage of health that needs to be bursted up (as the only damage is people randomely failing on the dance, and the constant ticking AOE). While they're good for the encounter already, the change won't make them shine even more here. They'll be slightly stronger, of course, but you almost want to use them on CD as a rotational ability here anyway, so the amount of healing they'll absorb is meh at best.

    Zorlok - depends on your tactic. Could probably make use of it.
    Bladelord - I guess you could run off to a side and place them halfway through the encounter while nothing's going on. Have anyone checked the range on these bastards absorbtion? Their 8 yard range makes them halfway-useless for the strikes.
    Garalon - no way in hell are you preplacing a shroom, and determining where your raid will be when a crush goes off, in order to make use of it. Constant high raid damage ensures little overhealing from rejuv, too. You'd be entirely dependant on your raid moving to them.
    Windlord - no sudden bursts of AOE damage.
    Ambershaper - allright for last phase.
    Shekzeer - not alot of overhealing during the phases, people will constantly be taking heavy dmg. Not stacked untill ~11 min into the encounter for last phase, gets a one time use then.

    Protectors - good for the last phase, "meh" for the first (not enough time to charge, sporadic damage on people due to dot rather than aoe dmg).
    Tsulong - borderline useless, can be used for burst on tsulong everytime you enter the day phase, but you move far too much in night, along with having unpredictable sunbeams.
    Lei shi - allright for get away if your raid's a little disciplined.
    Sha - not usefull at all.


    All of the above obviously assumes that you are capable of ensuring your raid to be at the position minutes later, when the healing is needed, and that you know exactly how long each phase will last.

    All in all, they're still "situational". Guess blizzard succeeded.

  3. #83
    Seems like i can stack overhealing rejuv out of combat, while i am doing some defensive work in RBGs.
    Like defending my flag carrier in WSG or TP.
    When the attack arrives, i will have a WM:bloom burst right at the start of the battle, and i can throw more 3 shrooms i can use in case battle goes long enough.

  4. #84
    Really we can't say for sure until we see if you can preplant them and charge them before a fight and how long it takes to charge them. Being able to preplant them would make them much easier to use. On certain fights where there is predictable spikes of damage and you can set a stack spot they could be helpful assuming it is easy to charge them depending on your healing team. Overall I'm not a big fan because I still find them a clunky mechanic. This helps but it seems like a cheap fix to useless mushrooms and overheal. Does not provide what we actually need to be a better healer.

  5. #85
    Guess they will test and change a lot during PTR indeed... pre-charging can get somewhat boring for the party.
    Just imagine how boring before every fight and/or after every raid wipe the resto druids on the raid say "one minute please, i will plant some shrooms, and rejuvenate you all to accumulate power... when i'm ready charging my shrooms you can pull the boss"

    This kind of pre-charging for sure must not work.

  6. #86
    My idea was to plant a 1-2s cast mushroom in an area and have a channelled cast (interuptable w/o barkskin) which makes the mushroom emit any overheals caused by rejuv as a minor barkskin effect or some spell similar to barkskin. The mushroom can die and will dissapear after 1 min, but has high resistance to magic and melee in PvE. You can only have 1 mushroom at any one time up.
    Last edited by TivookEU; 2013-01-10 at 03:49 PM.

  7. #87
    Biggest recent complaints about Resto Druids:

    1. They are ignoring resto druids again
    2. Our shrooms do nothing and are worthless
    3. We cannot compete on meters/logs with other classes because they can snipe and our heals go to overheal

    The announced changes today addressed all three of these things in spades imo. I know its not final. But how is the community not happy about this direction? Yes, it might not address all of our weaknesses, but different classes should have different strengths and weaknesses. This will allow some of our overheal to turn into burst healing. I see no downside to this. Its great to still discuss ways to improve it or other ideas, but I'm really suprised by the number of people complaining about this. It addresses most of the things we were complaining about before.

  8. #88
    This is a really good buff for us. IF you are unable to stack for healing in a fight you can simply plan ahead where to place them. They will be a better heal then they are currently and can easily be a very very strong heal for fights that need it.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Druover View Post
    Biggest recent complaints about Resto Druids:

    1. They are ignoring resto druids again
    2. Our shrooms do nothing and are worthless
    3. We cannot compete on meters/logs with other classes because they can snipe and our heals go to overheal

    The announced changes today addressed all three of these things in spades imo. I know its not final. But how is the community not happy about this direction? Yes, it might not address all of our weaknesses, but different classes should have different strengths and weaknesses. This will allow some of our overheal to turn into burst healing. I see no downside to this. Its great to still discuss ways to improve it or other ideas, but I'm really suprised by the number of people complaining about this. It addresses most of the things we were complaining about before.
    Because it doesn't adress anything. Resto druids are still going to get outdone by absorbs, and still bring nothing to stabilize a UNDERGEARED raid. Discs have absorbs, pallies have absorbs, resto shamans gives people a HP-buffer (constant buff). The only other class in the same situation as druids are monks, and their throughput, even after the nerf, is through the roof (along with having other extremely usefull abilities, like being counted as melee, which means that they can stack in melee for things that other healers can't - this shines on fights like Tsulong heroic, where you stack your ranged and move for the nightmares every 15 seconds. Having 1-2 monks ensures there's actually still people healing while the raid's moving).
    Giving the situational clusterfuck that is shrooms a overheal-burst mechanic is pretty much useless. It won't fix sustained AOE-healing (we still don't have other uncapped aoe heals, while every other class but disc does), it still won't fix sniping of our heals (the explosion will just overheal itself).

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Druover View Post
    Biggest recent complaints about Resto Druids:

    1. They are ignoring resto druids again
    2. Our shrooms do nothing and are worthless
    3. We cannot compete on meters/logs with other classes because they can snipe and our heals go to overheal

    The announced changes today addressed all three of these things in spades imo. I know its not final. But how is the community not happy about this direction? Yes, it might not address all of our weaknesses, but different classes should have different strengths and weaknesses. This will allow some of our overheal to turn into burst healing. I see no downside to this. Its great to still discuss ways to improve it or other ideas, but I'm really suprised by the number of people complaining about this. It addresses most of the things we were complaining about before.
    Coming from a disc priest who is 2 healing most content with a resto druid: this change looks good initially, but I think it has some drawbacks.

    In a 10 man environment, I can see a lot of times where placing mushrooms in advance isn't going to help based on positional requirements, or you won't be able to heal your whole raid with a 3 stack of them. I think this will be more challenging to druids who have to really think about whats going to be more effective for them if their raid isn't completely stacked and if deviating from the 3 stack will be a downside or not. But so far I am thinking that if used cleverly, any druid is going to excel and get a large amount of benefit from this change.

    But two questions I can't see to wrap my head around:

    Is the overhealing from rejuv counted no matter where the person is in relation to the mushrooms?(IE if a person happens to be 50 yards away from the mushrooms and has rejuv on them that is overhealing, will that still count)

    As some posters have provided pictures of super huge mushrooms, does the radius change with the mushroom size or will we end up with super huge mushrooms that you will have to stand in the center of to get benefit because they are so big?

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Because it doesn't adress anything. Resto druids are still going to get outdone by absorbs, and still bring nothing to stabilize a UNDERGEARED raid. Discs have absorbs, pallies have absorbs, resto shamans gives people a HP-buffer (constant buff). The only other class in the same situation as druids are monks, and their throughput, even after the nerf, is through the roof (along with having other extremely usefull abilities, like being counted as melee, which means that they can stack in melee for things that other healers can't - this shines on fights like Tsulong heroic, where you stack your ranged and move for the nightmares every 15 seconds. Having 1-2 monks ensures there's actually still people healing while the raid's moving).
    Giving the situational clusterfuck that is shrooms a overheal-burst mechanic is pretty much useless. It won't fix sustained AOE-healing (we still don't have other uncapped aoe heals, while every other class but disc does), it still won't fix sniping of our heals (the explosion will just overheal itself).
    I kind of agree with this. Will they be more useful than before? Yes. Will they be situationally really good? Yes. But it's going to depend on the amount of times you can place them in one place and know when the burst is needed people will be stacked there. If people have to move to use it...well, it's just not a good enough spell for that. It's not going to be worth the hassle when other healers can just burn their burst CDs and be fine on most encounters.

    If this is the only buff druids get for next tier I can't really see us anymore useful than last except for the few fights you can really use shrooms to their max capacity.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    People are never going to go for the "stack up for healing, or even "move for healing" approach if it costs DPS, especially if another healer can do it without that approach. There's a reason they have had to change mistweaver's mastery in 5.2.
    Also, you can't even remotely compare shrooms to healing rain or sanctuary. Both of those can be casted on the group's CURRENT position, and has no wind-up time apart from the cast itself. Both of those are also very small heal ticks, that will constantly help to top off the group, while the burst from stacked shrooms is a one-time-every 1-2 minutes thing.

    Just to consider the current tier, on heroic 25, and where shrooms are effective:

    Stoneguards - no, constant movement for bombs/amethyst pools, no big bursts of sudden damage that can be planned around.
    Feng - yes, Epicenter/Arcane vortex (Arcane is usually chosen for first phase, which means that you won't get to use charged shrooms unless your raid lets you place them, and waits for you to fill them up, and you then fill another pair up over the shield phase going into epicenter).
    Garajal - no, lack of sudden bursts of damage, maybe apart from the very last part of the enrage burn. I guess it could be argued they're usefull.
    Spirit kings - no, movement with no chance of being sure where you'll end up due to flankings/volleys/arrows/adds/running idiotic mobs.
    Elegon - no burst healing required, but the last phase could argueably make it usefull, as there's constant raid damage going out, and it'll help topping that off.
    Emperors - Yes and no. Due to the nature of the constantly ticking AOE damage, you won't overheal for alot. You also won't ever find the entire raid in one spot (ranged/healers won't go in melee due to dance, melee won't stand with ranged/healers), and you won't find the entire raid at a low percentage of health that needs to be bursted up (as the only damage is people randomely failing on the dance, and the constant ticking AOE). While they're good for the encounter already, the change won't make them shine even more here. They'll be slightly stronger, of course, but you almost want to use them on CD as a rotational ability here anyway, so the amount of healing they'll absorb is meh at best.

    Zorlok - depends on your tactic. Could probably make use of it.
    Bladelord - I guess you could run off to a side and place them halfway through the encounter while nothing's going on. Have anyone checked the range on these bastards absorbtion? Their 8 yard range makes them halfway-useless for the strikes.
    Garalon - no way in hell are you preplacing a shroom, and determining where your raid will be when a crush goes off, in order to make use of it. Constant high raid damage ensures little overhealing from rejuv, too. You'd be entirely dependant on your raid moving to them.
    Windlord - no sudden bursts of AOE damage.
    Ambershaper - allright for last phase.
    Shekzeer - not alot of overhealing during the phases, people will constantly be taking heavy dmg. Not stacked untill ~11 min into the encounter for last phase, gets a one time use then.

    Protectors - good for the last phase, "meh" for the first (not enough time to charge, sporadic damage on people due to dot rather than aoe dmg).
    Tsulong - borderline useless, can be used for burst on tsulong everytime you enter the day phase, but you move far too much in night, along with having unpredictable sunbeams.
    Lei shi - allright for get away if your raid's a little disciplined.
    Sha - not usefull at all.


    All of the above obviously assumes that you are capable of ensuring your raid to be at the position minutes later, when the healing is needed, and that you know exactly how long each phase will last.

    All in all, they're still "situational". Guess blizzard succeeded.
    I think you are going a little too gungho or expecting this to be some miracle buff. Please note: I resto druid 10 mans.

    I don't want and we don't need another rotational heal. It costs 5000k mana to bloom them and it's free to lay them down. What I like about this buff is I don't "need" to use it, but as your raids gear gets better and I'm rejuving with more and more impunity, the shrooms will only get more efficient. Also like I mentioned in a previous post... This along with the mana cost nerf to rejuv AND the new 4pc which makes it ramp up very hard.

    Personally I would love if they came up with a system where the healing doesn't stack but the healing is balanced around one bloom explosion OR if they increased the radius 2 or 3 yards for resto. I also don't realistically expect the heal to ever be more than 5-10% of my healing unless there's some crazy special conditions to the fight. I have to say I don't mind the idea all that much, which is saying a lot seeing I've been laughing at those shrooms since they came out. (healing and dps)

  13. #93
    Each mushroom is absorbing, so in non-ideal stacking situations, like Garalon, can't you just spread the mushrooms out? They'll still heal for a lot (up to 100% of your health each).

    Would work on Heroic Vizier too. You could reach every single bubble. They're pretty predictable where they go, even in the last phase.
    Last edited by earthwormjim; 2013-01-10 at 09:03 PM.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by earthwormjim View Post
    Each mushroom is absorbing, so in non-ideal stacking situations, like Garalon, can't you just spread the mushrooms out? They'll still heal for a lot (up to 100% of your health each).

    Would work on Heroic Vizier too. You could reach every single bubble. They're pretty predictable where they go, even in the last phase.
    Yes. People are seeming to forget that each shroom stores up to your maximum hp in overheals, which means they do not need to be stacked, they can be in 3 different places.

    You can achieve 400k in overhealing with rejuv in about 15 seconds if you really want to. It's not hard if you begin to blanket the raid.

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  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunfyre View Post
    Yes. People are seeming to forget that each shroom stores up to your maximum hp in overheals, which means they do not need to be stacked, they can be in 3 different places.

    You can achieve 400k in overhealing with rejuv in about 15 seconds if you really want to. It's not hard if you begin to blanket the raid.
    Yes, let's OOM ourselves to fill up a clunky mechanic where all the healing is OH. That sounds like a smart way to play a healer!

  16. #96
    Dislike this. First, it relies on overhealing. If you have the mana to deliberately overheal so that the excess is stored in the 'shrooms this is fine, but if not, you're penalized for playing well and minimizing overheals. Second, the 'shrooms heal a location, not players. Yes, you can put t hem in different places, etc but it's yet another way in which druid AOEs are tied to an area (see Effloresence, Hurricane). Third, if I can't preload the mushrooms before combat begins then i need to spend mana in early combat loading them (as well as healing the raid).

    This is a clumsy attempt to bandaid the fact that our heals are mostly HoTs and that these tend to overheal because of sniping, only some of the ticks being needed to heal damage on a toon, etc.

    What I'd rather see is a rework of the HoT concept. Instead of having, say, Rejuv heal for X ticks over Y time, have it heal for X damage over Y time BUT have the ticks pause if the toon is at full HP. Here's an example:

    Someone has 400khp. They take 100k damage so they're at 300. I toss a HoT on them. For the sake of simplicity let's say that my HoT ticks 10 times for 10k per tick. After 4 ticks, they are healed by another healer to full. Right now this means that, unless they take more damage before the HoT finished ticking, 60% of that HoT is overheal. HOWEVER, what if the ticks paused when they are at full, then started ticking when they are hit with more damage? In this case, the remaining six ticks sit on them and then, if they take more damage, tick until their full again. You'd need to have a max duration of the HoT probably, but it could be fairly long (30-60seconds).

  17. #97
    Zookeeper Sunfyre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightZero88 View Post
    Yes, let's OOM ourselves to fill up a clunky mechanic where all the healing is OH. That sounds like a smart way to play a healer!
    It's made to be a cooldown when you know burst is coming. Rejuv's base mana cost was reduced. I guess if you want to always see the cup as half empty, you will.

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  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    What I'd rather see is a rework of the HoT concept. Instead of having, say, Rejuv heal for X ticks over Y time, have it heal for X damage over Y time BUT have the ticks pause if the toon is at full HP. Here's an example:

    Someone has 400khp. They take 100k damage so they're at 300. I toss a HoT on them. For the sake of simplicity let's say that my HoT ticks 10 times for 10k per tick. After 4 ticks, they are healed by another healer to full. Right now this means that, unless they take more damage before the HoT finished ticking, 60% of that HoT is overheal. HOWEVER, what if the ticks paused when they are at full, then started ticking when they are hit with more damage? In this case, the remaining six ticks sit on them and then, if they take more damage, tick until their full again. You'd need to have a max duration of the HoT probably, but it could be fairly long (30-60seconds).
    While I like the idea I think it would be add another very complex mechanic to our rotation because you would have to keep track of who has "paused" HoTs on them. In your example for instance let's say we're on Feng. Wildfire starts ticking and the whole raid is taking damage. I toss out 4-5 rejuvs but our shammy uses healing tide which pops everyone up to full. Now I have 4 rejuvs on 4 different players that are paused. Now he hits a player for say 100k and that is one of the players with a paused HoT on them. How will I know if one, I already have a paused HoT (I suppose vudu/healbot/etc might have options to freeze a timer) and two, if I cast another rejuv what happens? Does the first one get replaced? I think it overall is neat but I could see it causing lots of confusion.

    OT: You mentioned hurricane. WTB a healing hurricane. I'd actually prefer that over the mushrooms, especially at 20k crit ticks like hurricane currently has. It's not a lot but it's instant, targetable and heals for a good chunk.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-10 at 04:58 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunfyre View Post
    You can achieve 400k in overhealing with rejuv in about 15 seconds if you really want to. It's not hard if you begin to blanket the raid.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunfyre View Post
    It's made to be a cooldown when you know burst is coming. Rejuv's base mana cost was reduced. I guess if you want to always see the cup as half empty, you will.
    Rejuv blanketing will OOM you and it's a waste because it's overhealing. It's not a glass half-empty, it's just a bandaid fix to an already clunky mechanic.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunfyre View Post
    It's made to be a cooldown when you know burst is coming. Rejuv's base mana cost was reduced. I guess if you want to always see the cup as half empty, you will.
    The issue with rejuv spamming like that is that it encourages a bad habit. Yes, you can rejuv spam and deliberately overheal and fill 'shrooms. then you're focused on filling shrooms, not prioritizing heals to the actual raid and you're doing it on the hope that your 'shrooms will be in the right place when they're full AND that the raid will need heals then. You now need to spend a resource to enable a CD (what other healer needs to do that?) and you have something else to monitor. They're also not a late fight CD unless you plant them in combat since they only last 5 minutes. Got an 8 minute fight? Then you had better plant them mid-fight and have the mana to charge them up (after you've been healing 1/2 the fight). Finally, yes, rejuv's cost is lower... but if they make rejuv cost little enough not to OOM you when spammed then it's trivial to simply blanket the raid and not worry about the damn mushroom.

    Mushrooms are a poor idea - they need to get away from having druid AOEs tied to locations.

    nightzero - I use grid now to track what's on people but yes, my idea adds complexity. Might be a bad idea in practice but we either need some way to rework HoTs so they aren't as susceptible to overheal/sniping or we need to move to a direct heal model (healing Hurricane is an interesting idea). And when I played a disc priest, I needed to track who had active shields on them, so...
    Last edited by clevin; 2013-01-10 at 10:06 PM.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    The issue with rejuv spamming like that is that it encourages a bad habit. Yes, you can rejuv spam and deliberately overheal and fill 'shrooms. then you're focused on filling shrooms, not prioritizing heals to the actual raid and you're doing it on the hope that your 'shrooms will be in the right place when they're full AND that the raid will need heals then. You now need to spend a resource to enable a CD (what other healer needs to do that?) and you have something else to monitor. They're also not a late fight CD unless you plant them in combat since they only last 5 minutes. Got an 8 minute fight? Then you had better plant them mid-fight and have the mana to charge them up (after you've been healing 1/2 the fight). Finally, yes, rejuv's cost is lower... but if they make rejuv cost little enough not to OOM you when spammed then it's trivial to simply blanket the raid and not worry about the damn mushroom.

    Mushrooms are a poor idea - they need to get away from having druid AOEs tied to locations.

    nightzero - I use grid now to track what's on people but yes, my idea adds complexity. Might be a bad idea in practice but we either need some way to rework HoTs so they aren't as susceptible to overheal/sniping or we need to move to a direct heal model (healing Hurricane is an interesting idea). And when I played a disc priest, I needed to track who had active shields on them, so...
    It doesn't matter if it encourages a bad habit or not. The point is it provides a useful mechanic and will keep people alive. PW:S blanketing in Wrath was a really, really bad mechanic. This isn't anywhere near as bad a mechanic, it actually requires thought and planning and has a skill component to it. That's not a bad thing.

    Also:
    "You now need to spend a resource to enable a CD (what other healer needs to do that?)"
    .. Spirit Shell? Am I missing something here? That is "spending a resource" to "enable a CD" in every possible sense.

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