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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Lothrik View Post
    It doesn't matter if it encourages a bad habit or not. The point is it provides a useful mechanic and will keep people alive. PW:S blanketing in Wrath was a really, really bad mechanic. This isn't anywhere near as bad a mechanic, it actually requires thought and planning and has a skill component to it. That's not a bad thing.

    Also:
    "You now need to spend a resource to enable a CD (what other healer needs to do that?)"
    .. Spirit Shell? Am I missing something here? That is "spending a resource" to "enable a CD" in every possible sense.
    Haven't healed (or even played) my priest, so... ok SS.

    I disagree that it's a useful mechanic. It's a bandaid. It's a reaction to "hmm, druid HoTs get sniped and tend to overheal a lot. Mushrooms are boring. Oh, wait, let's have overhealing charge mushrooms!" It's not a terrible idea, but it's not brilliant design either and it doesn't get at the root of the issue - HoTs overheal because they're sniped a lot. And again, I dislike the idea that this reinforces that our AoEs are all about being in a location. It's fine if the fights lend themselves to that but if they're mobile then the druid needs to anticipate where people will be when the CD/AOE is needed, etc.

  2. #102
    Zookeeper Sunfyre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightZero88 View Post
    Rejuv blanketing will OOM you and it's a waste because it's overhealing. It's not a glass half-empty, it's just a bandaid fix to an already clunky mechanic.
    then don't rejuv blanket. You know in fights, generally, where burst healing will occur. You have 5 minutes to place shrooms, and overhealing happens naturally. Druids were complaining about rejuv overhealing. They're complaining about any sort of response to burst damage. Now there is answers to both.

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  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    Haven't healed (or even played) my priest, so... ok SS.

    I disagree that it's a useful mechanic. It's a bandaid. It's a reaction to "hmm, druid HoTs get sniped and tend to overheal a lot. Mushrooms are boring. Oh, wait, let's have overhealing charge mushrooms!" It's not a terrible idea, but it's not brilliant design either and it doesn't get at the root of the issue - HoTs overheal because they're sniped a lot. And again, I dislike the idea that this reinforces that our AoEs are all about being in a location. It's fine if the fights lend themselves to that but if they're mobile then the druid needs to anticipate where people will be when the CD/AOE is needed, etc.
    Spirit Shell was a bandaid fix too. Disc Priests only had one raid cooldown, and it pretty much sucked. Now look at it, people point and scream "OVERPOWERED!"

    You're just looking at this the wrong way. Druids are already very mobile healers, complaining about mobile fights being irritating to a Disc Priest is laughable.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Lothrik View Post
    Spirit Shell was a bandaid fix too. Disc Priests only had one raid cooldown, and it pretty much sucked. Now look at it, people point and scream "OVERPOWERED!"

    You're just looking at this the wrong way. Druids are already very mobile healers, complaining about mobile fights being irritating to a Disc Priest is laughable.
    I'm not complaining about "mobile fights being irritating to a Disc Priest". I'm complaining (if you paid attention) to the fact that Blizzard seems wedded to the idea that Druid AOEs should be about location of the spell vs who it's cast on. The exceptions are WG (which isn't much of our healing anymore) and Tranq.

    Spirit Shell isn't really the same either, no matter how much you argue it is. First, it doesn't really consume a resource to enable the absorb. It simply moves the heal from being a heal to an absorb - it's not charging something else for later use. Second, it's cast on the player, so if they move, the effect stays with them. The priest analogue to this mushroom change would be if Lightwell was placed but had no healing power until it was charged via overhealing.

    In any event, I don't care about Disc - that's another thread for another forum. The matter at hand is the mushroom change and while it's not terrible, it's far from good.

    Sunfyre - druids were complaining about HoT OH in general, no one good blankets rejuv. The problem with this fix is that it punishes people who try to heal efficiently and limits our burst response to the location of the 'shroom. What, your raid moved and isn't close to the mushroom when it's full and you need burst? Oh well, too bad.
    Last edited by clevin; 2013-01-10 at 11:00 PM.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Daerio View Post
    Having to predict when to use a 40 yard CD is a little bit different than predicting exactly where people will be standing. I feel like this is a pretty obvious difference.
    For casual players maybe. For top end raid guilds most of our strategies for heroic Can plan out within 5 seconds where someone is going to be standing 5 min from now relatively easily during alot of progression fights/mechanics.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-10 at 10:59 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    I'm not complaining about "mobile fights being irritating to a Disc Priest". I'm complaining (if you paid attention) to the fact that Blizzard seems wedded to the idea that Druid AOEs should be about location of the spell vs who it's cast on. The exceptions are WG (which isn't much of our healing anymore) and Tranq.

    In any event, I don't care about Disc - that's another thread for another forum. The matter at hand is the mushroom change and while it's not terrible, it's far from good.

    Sunfyre - druids were complaining about HoT OH in general, no one good blankets rejuv. The problem with this fix is that it punishes people who try to heal efficiently and limits our burst response to the location of the 'shroom. What, your raid moved and isn't close to the mushroom when it's full and you need burst? Oh well, too bad.
    If your raid isn't by the shrooms then either your shrooms arn't in the right place or you need to play with better players.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by momirmaster View Post
    For casual players maybe. For top end raid guilds most of our strategies for heroic Can plan out within 5 seconds where someone is going to be standing 5 min from now relatively easily during alot of progression fights/mechanics.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-10 at 10:59 PM ----------



    If your raid isn't by the shrooms then either your shrooms arn't in the right place or you need to play with better players.
    This might be news to you but heroic raiders aren't the only people who count. Your reply also sidesteps the fact that other healers do not have to deal with this limitation (Lightwell is kind of an exception) so why should I? Why are people just fine with our stuff being location dependent? It's not an advantage, people, it's a limitation.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    What, your raid moved and isn't close to the mushroom when it's full and you need burst? Oh well, too bad.
    This sounds like more of a personal problem, and not a flaw with mushrooms. Burst damage in PvE is extremely predictable, coordinate your raid better. "Oh well, too bad" in Raid Finder, maybe.

    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    It's not an advantage, people, it's a limitation.
    If it didn't have this limitation, it would be stupidly overpowered, why is it so hard for you to grasp that?

    Let's think outside the box for a minute here. Imagine you could build up mushroom overhealing whenever you liked without even putting mushrooms down. Imagine you didn't even have to detonate mushrooms, they just did instant burst healing when placed. Oh, and they have 30 yard radius instead of 8 yards. This seems to be what the Resto Druids complaining here are dreaming about having. This is considerably worse than the current Spirit Shell, which is getting nerfed. When you remove the positional requirements and the preparation time the spell becomes ridiculously overpowered.
    Last edited by Lothrik; 2013-01-10 at 11:11 PM.

  8. #108
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    I don't like this. This almost encourages overhealing. I don't think blizzard should encourage a bad behavior, it is like giving someone who won an eating contest more food(not that I think eating contest are bad but you get my point).
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  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    This might be news to you but heroic raiders aren't the only people who count. Your reply also sidesteps the fact that other healers do not have to deal with this limitation (Lightwell is kind of an exception) so why should I? Why are people just fine with our stuff being location dependent? It's not an advantage, people, it's a limitation.
    You can go back to the old shitty shrooms if youd like. Druids are in a fine place. Im my alt run that I play a druid Im #1 healer in it. in my main run 12/16HM our resto druid heals right with any other healer. druids arn't in a bad place if they know what there doing. The "issue" is that in terms of HARDCORE progression raiding Resto druids were getting benched at the higher levels because they don't have "it" spirit shell, bubbles, spirit link. Tranq is fine and all but its not something that Is as abusable as everyone else's cd's. This change is 100% targeted QOL change to all the top resto druids who are sitting bench right now in good guilds.

    You just seem to miss the fact WERE LOSING NOTHING. all were gaining is a Overpowered CD that can be abused.
    Last edited by momirmaster; 2013-01-10 at 11:22 PM.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Lothrik View Post
    This sounds like more of a personal problem, and not a flaw with mushrooms. Burst damage in PvE is extremely predictable, coordinate your raid better. "Oh well, too bad" in Raid Finder, maybe.



    If it didn't have this limitation, it would be stupidly overpowered, why is it so hard for you to grasp that?

    Let's think outside the box for a minute here. Imagine you could build up mushroom overhealing whenever you liked without even putting mushrooms down. Imagine you didn't even have to detonate mushrooms, they just did instant burst healing when placed. Oh, and they have 30 yard radius instead of 8 yards. This seems to be what the Resto Druids complaining here are dreaming about having. This is considerably worse than the current Spirit Shell, which is getting nerfed. When you remove the positional requirements and the preparation time the spell becomes ridiculously overpowered.
    Ah strawmen. Love them. Did I ask for what you outlined? No. Here's the thing - I don't like mushrooms as a mechanic AT ALL. I don't want location dependent heals. I get that once the raid knows the fight it's not a big deal but with this change I have to a) predict location and b) predict when people will need burst healing AND be in that location.

    You keep bringing up SS and ignoring that SS is not location dependent. You also ignore that this is a bandaid to a problem in druid healing, not a real solution.

    I do love the people who cite their experience as if they = everyone. And those of you who view any criticism of a Blizzard proposal as something like treason. And here I thought we might actually have a discussion vs some lovefest for anything Blizz throws at us. You know, a critical examination of the good AND bad. But no, can't do that....
    Last edited by clevin; 2013-01-10 at 11:30 PM.

  11. #111
    There is am amazing amount of doom and gloom in this thread. A few points that several people are overlooking:

    1. This mechanic has a wide range of uses. The fact that it *can* be a raid CD gives it a massive amount of potential on several fights, but it can also be place and used as a burst heal on many fights and still prove to be very effective. If you know that a fight will require a big raid CD, place it three minutes in advance (on those fights where you can reasonably predict where the raid will be 3 minutes from now). If you're on a fight that has constant ticking damage, use it every 1 minute (even if it's far from its maximum potential) because it will still give you a sizable burst heal. If you can't reasonably assume everyone will be stacked when the burst is needed, spread them out to increase the radius. You might be losing some of the maximum potential healing per person, but you may still get a sizable burst heal depending on how much they've absorbed.

    2. This is a skill-based mechanic. A lot of druids have been complaining that druids are too easy to play. And realistically we are: we cast heals when they're off CD and that's really all we do. This mechanic adds a lot of skill to our class to be used effectively. It relies on 3 separate spells to be used effectively: Rejuv (there's going to be plenty of theorycrafting about smart RJ usage and acceptable overhealing due to this), Wild Mushroom placement (you have to know when and where the raid will be on most fights, or you have to coordinate with the raid leader to be sure that happens), and Bloom timing (knowing when the best time to use the bloom to maximize potential healing on many fights — this also requires that you know how much healing potential they have stored up, and making sure you aren't wasting potential by blooming too late, or underhealing by blooming too early). Smart druids will maximize its potential on most fights, and on many fights you'll probably see druids ranking above other healers because of it.

    3. Druids do not need to be the top healer on every fight to be competitive. If there are fights where this won't be used to maximum potential, that's not the end of the world. What matters is that if, on most fights, this is the push we need to get us competitive again as healers (and even, as may be the case, on top on at least a few fights) then this change was successful. Druids don't need a massive buff to be competitive again. In fact, if all we got was a buff (say to mastery) we wouldn't actually be all that competitive because we'd still lack one important component to our healing arsenal: burst healing. With this we get that. It might not be the most ideal implementation of burst healing, but it is something we desperately need. Hopefully, either when/if this change goes live, or at some point in the future, blizzard will allow us to move shrooms mid-fight without impunity. If that happens, this change would be nearly perfect, in my opinion.

    P.S. I beg people to please stop going off topic by "suggesting" alternative buffs to this one.
    Last edited by Dendrek; 2013-01-10 at 11:36 PM.
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  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    Ah strawmen. Love them. Did I ask for what you outlined? No. Here's the thing - I don't like mushrooms as a mechanic AT ALL. I don't want location dependent heals. I get that once the raid knows the fight it's not a big deal but with this change I have to a) predict location and b) predict when people will need burst healing AND be in that location.

    You keep bringing up SS and ignoring that SS is not location dependent. You also ignore that this is a bandaid to a problem in druid healing, not a real solution.

    I do love the people who cite their experience as if they = everyone. And those of you who view any criticism of a Blizzard proposal as something like treason. And here I thought we might actually have a discussion vs some lovefest for anything Blizz throws at us. You know, a critical examination of the good AND bad. But no, can't do that....
    Every spell has to have limitations. If positional requirements irk you so, you're playing the wrong class. That's the direction Blizzard has been moving Resto Druids for at least the past 3 years now (and to be totally honest, most healers -- Healing Rain, Holy Word: Sanctuary and Light's Hammer for example). I see a perfectly viable spell with a reasonable limitation, you apparently see your own class shifting towards a type of healing you despise.
    Last edited by Lothrik; 2013-01-10 at 11:44 PM.

  13. #113
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    There are good points on both sides that both sides don't want to look at because they think their points are better.

    Pros:
    • Shrooms aren't great now, and no matter if this is a real fix it still makes them worth using more than they were before. It's still a buff.
    • They can be used as burst. No matter what else they are they will be a form of burst.
    • It's makes Rj overheal not as terrible. With the change to RJ we will probably be using it more. Even if we still try and reduce overheal as much as possible, what we can't prevent goes to something now.
    • This will be great for higher up guilds who can really utilize positioning and a spell like this if the mechanics can use it.

    Cons:
    • It's a big change so it may end up being the only change, and for one reason or another it may still not be enough to prevent top ends from being sat.
    • Any fight in LFR or a not so coordinated guild(which makes up the majority of the playerbase) a lot of fights they may end up not being much better than they are now.
    • With the RJ mana nerf+this RJ blanketing+wg/Sm on CD may end up being a solid strat...and a lot of people really don't want that.
    • Once they're down they're down. If your raid gets a bad mechanic placement and you have to go stack on the other side of the room, all that buff time was wasted.


    Also, saying he's 'playing the wrong class' when someone doesn't like a new mechanic is ridiculous. He didn't predict this change when he rolled a druid so he has every right not to like the way the class is going.

    People can like or dislike it, shitting on each other opinions(yes opinions since we don't know pretty much anything about this change yet) isn't tolerated. So, enough of that please. =]

  14. #114
    It's not exactly unheard of for people to reroll due to class changes they don't like. Personally I think this is a great change and I'll probably play my Resto Druid more often when this is live, the skill component implied here is extremely appealing to me. If that means I'm the minority here, I'm fine with that. (offtopic, I kind of hate the Rapture change in 5.2, reduces skill cap of Disc and makes my spirit procs worthless )

  15. #115
    I love how people are so quick to pick this apart and complain. It's a buff. I for one am happy about it.

    A lot of people seem to be focusing on the idea behind a fully buffed mushroom bloom. Pick the predictable stack points in a fight and just let your shrooms off on a damage spike whether they are 100% buffed or not.

    It would be interesting to know what the range the mushrooms grab OH from. Also if the OH is distributed evenly among shrooms or if it applies to each mushroom. Maybe you could set one mushroom and have it buff quicker?

    The only fight I can see myself struggling to place shrooms effectively (talking 25s) is amber shaper from sporatic movement due to stomps (thats only part of the fight though) and i currently have no problem competing with our other healers on this fight.

    Happy to discuss how to use the shrooms on each encounter if people are interested but not if it's just going to be a discussion about how much better other classes toolsets are. I quite liked being the under dog on every fight and still either topping healing or coming very close to our disc priest. I would hate for a truelly amazing performance in healing to simply be labelled as "zomg your class is OP you need a nerf".

  16. #116
    Zookeeper Sunfyre's Avatar
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    They've been modified, and only seem to store 1/3rd hp now, and the bloom is split among everyone it hits. Also, you now see a 'Wild Mushroom: Bloom!' buff pop up once they're fully proc'd, and the bloom icon glows.

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  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Iracor View Post
    Uncapped AoE healing...what could possibly go wrong.

    I see this being used to trivialize a lot of mechanics. An instant AoE LoH just sounds entirely broken.
    I agree. In pvp this could be pre placed and be an loh for a FC etc. It's just the ptr so thing are subject to change though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunfyre View Post
    They've been modified, and only seem to store 1/3rd hp now, and the bloom is split among everyone it hits. Also, you now see a 'Wild Mushroom: Bloom!' buff pop up once they're fully proc'd, and the bloom icon glows.
    Ah, I see. Sorry for the post. =(

    Still pretty good though. Is that 1/3 a shroom? So basically over all its still a lay on hands.

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  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by momirmaster View Post
    You can go back to the old shitty shrooms if youd like. Druids are in a fine place. Im my alt run that I play a druid Im #1 healer in it. in my main run 12/16HM our resto druid heals right with any other healer. druids arn't in a bad place if they know what there doing. The "issue" is that in terms of HARDCORE progression raiding Resto druids were getting benched at the higher levels because they don't have "it" spirit shell, bubbles, spirit link. Tranq is fine and all but its not something that Is as abusable as everyone else's cd's. This change is 100% targeted QOL change to all the top resto druids who are sitting bench right now in good guilds.

    You just seem to miss the fact WERE LOSING NOTHING. all were gaining is a Overpowered CD that can be abused.
    I think you missed the fact where same skilled but Disc Vs Rdruid, Disc > Rdruid in many fights.

    In terms of High AOE dmg, Spirit shield is by miles better than Tranq hands down.

    Tranq is treated as some last resort CD to slowly heal up the raid.

    Though Rdruid CD is strong,don't be mistaken, but its funny how our hots can't even keep up with the raid dmg in Heroic unless you are paired with a much much stronger healer, and by that i mean a Pally or Priest or Shaman or Monk.

    Elflorecent with small radius and limited ppl can be healed vs Holy or Shaman radius and ppl that can be healed.


    Incarnation mass LB and hope for RG proc with soo many GCD used. Not too bad for that free RG.
    And now tell me, are we still in a good place to be considered in to any Heroic Progression? and Rdruid Abuse our CD? orly...

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehstool View Post
    Ah, I see. Sorry for the post. =(

    Still pretty good though. Is that 1/3 a shroom? So basically over all its still a lay on hands.
    Yes. So all three together heal for 100% of your health + base healing.

  20. #120
    Druid
    • We’re still iterating on this design for Wild Mushrooms. Currently, they each absorb 25% overheal, up to a max of 33% of the Druid’s max health (total of 75% / 100% with 3 Mushrooms out). This max size isn’t working in build 16446, but we hope to hotfix that soon. Upon blooming, their accumulated healing is split over the targets they heal. Several parts of this aren’t yet working in build 16446, leading them to be massively overpowered (which we also hope to hotfix soon). Feedback, especially in future builds, is appreciated.

    source: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7593740975

    People shouldn't get their hopes too high though. This will be nerfed after bug fix once Blizzard realizes how strong utility AND raw healing power wise this spell is. They won't make the same mistake as Spirit Shell, they will also not force you into the mechanic most part of community doesn't like. I can't see 25%/33% per shroom making it past 2-3 PTR builds. Every competent resto druid will just destroy other healers with these changes and also bring more utility if encounter involves burst damage mechanics like Empress, Garalon, Wind Lord, Blade Lord, Feng or something similar. It won't be disc priest level, but still a huge gap. Even one third of this will make druids strongest healers (if Spirit Shell is nerfed).
    Last edited by Torty; 2013-01-11 at 05:57 AM.
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