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  1. #141
    The goal should be to remove the spell entirely.

    From both Resto and Balance.

    The spell, its implementation, and this potential change are all trash.

    Well it is slightly useful as a means to refresh harmony on the move when swiftmend is on cooldown...

    If they wanted to actually help Druids in a meaningful way they'd add a small % absorb to Rejuv overhealing instead. Mushrooms are the most inane, convoluted healing mechanic I have ever seen. 3 GCDs, clairvoyance, and bad healing habits are required to even make them useful. STOP TRYING.

    On most of the fights where this would even matter, unless you have it on farm and are using too many healers, there wouldnt' be much overhealing to begin with. Even in that scenario, minimal to no overhealing, Druids lag behind the others.

  2. #142
    Planck, you never have to refresh harmony on the move while swiftmend is on CD. Swiftmend's cd is lower than the duration of harmony.

    The only way I honestly see mushrooms being usefull, is by adding a new mechanic to resto druids - overheal power.
    Think of it a bit like a monk's mana tea - you overheal, and you store the overhealed amount in a buff, up to a cap (the one that mushrooms can currently have). When you place a mushroom, it takes 1/3 of that healing power you've saved up, and puts it in the mushroom, and it explodes the mushroom for that amount.
    Basicly, it takes the current mechanic, and avoids the akwardness of having to be clairvoyant and predict where people will be for the mushrooms. It'll still take time to charge them up, and you still have to spend your GBC's to place them, but you're not reliant on the raid moving.

  3. #143
    I was mostly referring to 5 mans where I'm dpsing 80% of the time and never really have to cast swiftmend, or even rejuvenation on the tank, to begin with. Or you need to save up swiftmend for a pathetic amount of "aoe" healing. Lifebloom + WG = 99% of 5 man healing if they aren't derps.

  4. #144
    Blademaster Juvenate's Avatar
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    I posted some feedback in the PTR thread about healing shrooms:

    *Side Note: My estimates for the healing done is before Mastery is taken into account, so actual healing is more like 450k total or so before Crits.

    Wild Mushroom: Bloom Feedback

    I appreciate the changes made to Wild Mushroom: Bloom so far. There are both positives and some negatives about the spell:

    Positives:

    -The new growing mechanic is very interesting. Turning our overhealing into a meaningful healing mechanic does solve most of that issue.

    -The health cap is appropriate as to not encourage deliberate overhealing for OP Blooms.

    -In the latest hotfix you applied a "ready" glow when they cap. This is much appreciated.

    Negatives:

    -If my napkin math is correct, at 31k Spellpower each shroom would heal each player in the neighborhood of 5.5k if said shroom hit all 25 targets and was capped. If you actually manage to hit the same player with all 3 the healing would be 16.5k before Crits. 5.5k to 16.5k just doesn't seem like very meaningful healing when players have 400k+ health pools.

    -The radius of each mushroom is too small right now. The spell is stationary and doesn't have any visible "radius" like Efflorescence or Healing Rain. Moving the shrooms because of a small radius also penalizes the overhealing mechanic.

    Solutions:

    The healing, while potentially good in a 10-man setting, is still lackluster for 25's. Having diminishing returns on our burst ability really hurts the "burst". I actually think the total healing amount is fine, it's just how it's being applied that is the issue. Its current design is more akin to Healing Rain, but it shouldn't be like Healing Rain because it's not meant to fill that particular role.

    -Consider putting a target cap on each mushroom (possibly 5?) and in turn take away the diminishing returns. With the target cap, make each shroom heal the lowest health raid member within it's radius. This smart healing is a very fair trade-off considering how clunky and easily nullified healing shrooms currently are by players not paying attention. With a cap of 5 targets each shroom would heal 15 raid members for 28k. This healing is much more meaningful versus having 25 players being healed for 5.5k. For 10-man you can still have the 420k healing split among 10 players, just cap it for 15 targets for 25's.

    -Increase the radius. 8 yards is too small for an ability with no radius indicator for the raid. If you are dead set on keeping the 8 yards, please put in some visual indicator for raiders. A "spore cloud" in a circular form would be a nice touch.

    Link
    I blog about Resto Druid stuff at WTS Heals.

  5. #145
    We're never going to be meaningfully fixed as long as this abomination of a spell exists. It's their "new toy" and they're going to try, in utter futility, to make it work while it exists. It's never going to work, why would you even want it to it's so annoying. Just get rid of it already and try something else.

    Just because some Druids wanted this abomination pre-MOP doesn't mean its a positive addition. Start over. Otherwise we're likely to get this one "buff" for the entirety of 5.2 and again be dead last in hps/utility (well, maybe monks will be battling us for last in utility) for another 6 months to a year.

    That's the most offensive thing about the way Blizzard "balances" this game, or attempts to. How many months/years they are content to just let specs rot with little to no changes.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    I don't know that it'd be overpowered, but it'd drop the skill cap for using them correctly by quite a lot, and I don't think that's a good goal here.
    Predicting the position of your raid in x seconds isn't about skill much of the time though, there are many encounters where the positioning is down to purely random elements and at the point where you are dictating how your raid moves based on a single ability of one spec is about the time where you decide it simply isn't worth bringing that spec.

    This ability will feel frustrating, I'm all for introducing skill based abilities but this is not it.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlanckEnergy View Post
    -meaningless complaining-
    Negativity gets us nowhere. Constructive criticism trumps destructive criticism every time.

    I enjoy the idea of a post earlier in this thread that explains a new possible mechanic that basically allows you to "carry around" the overhealing with you and, upon placing a mushroom, consumes the charged healing in order to give the mushroom a buff of equal proportion.

    Hopefully our voice gets heard and Blizzard gives a little more love on this matter.

  8. #148
    I offered the only constructive criticism you should be worried about at this moment in time: Delete healing mushrooms.

    It's our only chance to get real improvements. Marginally improving a terrible mechanic is not the answer. This will be a lost expansion if we allow them to act as if (or they just decide) Mushrooms are the answer to everything.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlanckEnergy View Post
    We're never going to be meaningfully fixed as long as this abomination of a spell exists.
    What would you suggest then Planck, a shield from rejuv overheal doesn't really cut it for me, it adds no skill requirement and if anything negates it to some degree imo?

    The range of shrooms is an issue, as is what they heal for, but other than that I like the mechanic, it gives us something to do when not gcd locked and nothing says you have to stick them down in consecutive globals.

    I'd far prefer they attempt to fix our lack of burst, lod style, rather than giving us a decreased cost on an already one dimensional healing style.

    Worm

  10. #150
    As one of the mods said above there are good things about this... I just don't think it's a meaningful buff and it still feels like a bandaid to a spell design that started out broken. I do like that they're trying to make the overheal from hots useful by storing them, but the spell feels poorly designed and this doesn't change that.

    You still have to a) place them, b) have the raid be close to them, c) have them be fully charged when the raid is close to them and d) have the raid need heals when the mushrooms are charged and in range. Ideally, you also e) want (d) to happen just as the mushrooms hit full charge so that hots that overheal aren't wasted because the mushrooms can't take any more charge.

    Since the heal is split amongst everyone in range it's going to be a fairly small percentage of a player's hp if several people are in range so it's not an "Oh shit, I need to heal a lot of people up right now!" button unless you have only a few people close by (2-5) and they're all at half hp. That said, it's a nice way to recapture some of the healing that went to overheals and will bump us up in effective HPS. But... so? And doesn't it feel like a very clunky way to do that? Again, if overhealing is an issue because we're a hot based class, figure out interesting ways to fix that. Healing Hurricane, hots that pause and the restart when below full, etc.

    is this the end of the world? No. Does it help us a bit? yeah, presuming you can place the 'shrooms effectively *(and that will be dependent in part on the encounters in 5.2) But it's not a really exciting buff that moves the class forward, especially since it continues the location dependence of our aoe effects.
    Last edited by clevin; 2013-01-11 at 10:02 PM.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrantworm View Post
    What would you suggest then Planck, a shield from rejuv overheal doesn't really cut it for me, it adds no skill requirement and if anything negates it to some degree imo?

    The range of shrooms is an issue, as is what they heal for, but other than that I like the mechanic, it gives us something to do when not gcd locked and nothing says you have to stick them down in consecutive globals.

    I'd far prefer they attempt to fix our lack of burst, lod style, rather than giving us a decreased cost on an already one dimensional healing style.

    Worm
    We could all have a brainstorm. I just know that Healing Shrooms, with their current and apparently future limitations, are not, will not, CANNOT be an answer. And it seems the devs have fallen in love with them. Which means as long as they exist we will be tied to them and screwed over by them.

    Look at the history of WoW. Look at all the classes/specs that are barely sufficient or completely uncompetitive. They all have these "flavor" mechanics that Devs love for god knows what reason that prevents said class/spec from competing in many or any of the aspects of the game. Healing Shrooms are one such mechanic. Clunky, slow to develop, extremely limited. Even with this buff they barely heal for anything once they start hitting a few targets (in fact it almost seems as if the best use would be a LOH type effect on one player in very specific circumstances).

    Then look at classes/specs which are always good, and almost always in all aspects of the game. How adaptable their mechanics are. How quick the Devs are to fix them if they appear even remotely weak. Druids are not, and have not, ever been such a class/spec and this direction of wild mushrooms is going to further marginalize us. I'm not kidding when I say this expansion will be entirely lost if we do not rid ourselves of this spell or have a massive overhaul of how it functions.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-11 at 04:23 PM ----------

    I will just say this, Resto Druids biggest problem is the "weakness" the Devs have chosen for us. We are weak in burst healing. Everyone likes to say "every healer needs a weakness," and this may be true, but not all weaknesses are created equal.

    Being weak at recovering from burst healing, for example by having no strong rotational AOE heal (as a supposed "raid healer"), is THE WORST POSSIBLE "weakness" to have in heroic raids. There is no other way to put it. Other healer's weaknesses will show up in one or two fights a tier. Resto Druid weakness shows up in EVERY SINGLE FIGHT.

    Though our current problems go beyond that as even on a fight that supposedly plays to our strengths (Garalon) we are dead last with shamans (their weakest fight by far, where Garalon is one of Druid's strongest, and we are still dead tie for last while bringing less utility). On top of all this Tranquility is easily the weakest of the 3 min cooldowns. It's beyond insulting, really. A shaman talent, Healing Tide Totem, absolutely annihilates Tranquility... both in healing done and method of delivery - we have to channel to do less healing while they can drop a totem and continue healing. It just... words fail.

    We are designed to be left behind in heroics. That is the intent of the developers. Resto Druids have been sat during Heroic progression for every tier the past two expansions except Tier 12 (and were still sat on Baleroc). We have received basically no changes that entire time, and were absolute trash in PvP the entirety of Cataclysm. Devs never bothered to say even one word about Resto Druid PvP viability in Cataclysm. With the recent Battle Fatigue nerf to 30% Druid healers are now non-competitive in PvP in MOP as well, where we will remain and continue to fall behind.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-11 at 04:32 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrantworm View Post
    What would you suggest then Planck, a shield from rejuv overheal doesn't really cut it for me, it adds no skill requirement and if anything negates it to some degree imo?

    The range of shrooms is an issue, as is what they heal for, but other than that I like the mechanic, it gives us something to do when not gcd locked and nothing says you have to stick them down in consecutive globals.

    I'd far prefer they attempt to fix our lack of burst, lod style, rather than giving us a decreased cost on an already one dimensional healing style.

    Worm
    Why not absorbs? Do Paladin absorbs require skill? Thinking? No, of course they don't. Now go look at Holy Paladin logs and see how amazing they are.

    Do Disc Priests absorbs require skill? There is minor skill (looking at a boss timer) involved with Spirit Shell. A small barrier of entry to completely trivialize Heroic raid mechanics. Does PoH/DA require skill? No. Already, with decent enough gear, Disc Priests and their insane mana regen can sustain 10+ minute of POH spam. It is more efficient for a geared Disc Pries to cast POH if only 1 person will receive healing than it is to use any of their single target heals. Most fights do not even last anywhere near 10 minutes. They can literally POH the entire duration of fights. It requires no thought.

    Shrooms do not require skill, either. They require luck and raid pre-planning. Except the are too weak, even with these "buff," to be worth pre-planning for. The point at which they become useful in any manner at all is also random, and at the mercy of other healers and the awareness of your raiders in general. They are RANDOM, and the only way to make them as un-random as possible encourages horrible, unsustainable healing habits. All for the sake of what? 40k heal per pop? Don't make me laugh.

    Stop trying to polish this turd. Start calling shrooms what they are. Demand change. Or be relegated to the absolute bottom for the entirety of this expansion.

    Disc Priests are veritable gods in PvE right now. They are receiving basically zero nerfs. Depending on raid composition, some Disc Priests will be seeing BETTER performance in 5.2 as things stand now. Disc Priests are fairly ineffective in PvP, but they're better than Resto Druids were the entirety of Cataclysm... and they've already been promised PvP buffs because Blizzard finds their performance unacceptable. Resto Druids got zero commentary or help in PvP the entirety of Cataclysm.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrantworm View Post
    What would you suggest then Planck, a shield from rejuv overheal doesn't really cut it for me, it adds no skill requirement and if anything negates it to some degree imo?

    The range of shrooms is an issue, as is what they heal for, but other than that I like the mechanic, it gives us something to do when not gcd locked and nothing says you have to stick them down in consecutive globals.

    I'd far prefer they attempt to fix our lack of burst, lod style, rather than giving us a decreased cost on an already one dimensional healing style.

    Worm
    Apparently my longer post is stuck in some sort of edit review invisiblity. So I'll just make a further independent comment.

    I'm not sure what you mean by "fix our lack of burst, lod style." I presume you mean Light of Dawn. That's kind of hilarious considering a Paladin can build 3 Holy Power in mere fractions of the time it will take to charge shrooms, it is a smart heal now... requires zero thought of where you are facing, what's in front of you... raid position does not matter. It just heals. They are worlds apart. Are you really saying this change to shrooms, or shrooms in general, are in any way comparable to LOD?

    Besides that, Paladins have a talent that is amazing and a better use of the Holy Power anyway... oh, to have such an embarrassment of riches.

  13. #153
    I don't see why they need to be ditched completely though, I mean if it was changed so this overhealing buff the shrooms get was on the player instead which affected the next bloom you cast and maybe a glyph so you could plant all 3 at once, or possibly something like making it so mushrooms could be planted outside of the GCD so you could do it while casting/channeling/waiting for GCD. The latter would improve the skill cap, I'm sure.

    I think the reason they like to hang onto these abilities is because it's much easier to tweak an ability than it is to create a completely new one which would require developing a new concept, brand new animations, new icons, spell effects etc.

  14. #154
    They need to be destroyed because this is the "new toy" they gave us, and the only improvements they are ever going to try and make are through it in some manner. You see this all the time with other doomed classes. As long as the spell exists they will try to make it the answer to everything. Considering the design of the spell is fatally flawed, we are done with if they do this.

    God forbid a game with 10 million paying customers requires a bit of extra work now and then. With all the time and money they're saving on reskinned models and armor, you'd think they'd have some left over for things that actually matter.

    Reverting one or maybe both of the nerfs to Wild Growth would be INFINITELY BETTER than anything to do with mushrooms.

  15. #155
    Making them grow only with overhealing seems pretty dumb, to be honest. Just make them absorb a flat (Small) percentage from all rejuv ticks, healing or overhealing. The way it is proposed now makes it too hit and miss.

  16. #156
    I don't even want to suggest ways of potentially improving the spell, as it needs to be deleted... but I'd rather the shrooms just bloomed ON THE DRUID. Then at least you could ensure they're properly placed. It is obscene that a spell that could take MINUTES OF BUILDUP can be entirely wasted so easily.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Secrecy View Post
    I don't see why they need to be ditched completely though, I mean if it was changed so this overhealing buff the shrooms get was on the player instead which affected the next bloom you cast and maybe a glyph so you could plant all 3 at once, or possibly something like making it so mushrooms could be planted outside of the GCD so you could do it while casting/channeling/waiting for GCD. The latter would improve the skill cap, I'm sure.

    I think the reason they like to hang onto these abilities is because it's much easier to tweak an ability than it is to create a completely new one which would require developing a new concept, brand new animations, new icons, spell effects etc.
    Tweaking works when the design is close and just needs refinement. The question is whether healing mushrooms are close to being good or whether the concept is flawed from the start.

    One issue that Blizzard faces is that they don't want each healing class to feel like every other class. If they gave everyone the same tools balanced the same way and the spells really only differed in name and animations then they've failed in giving us a reason to roll class X vs class Y. At the same time, if they make the classes too niche, then you need to have specific classes for encounters or they need to make the encounters fit any combination of niche abilities that the raid can bring.

    Given this, I understand Mushrooms - they're kind of analogous to Lightwell, the monk idol, etc.... a static THING that fits the class flavor and provides a side benefit without being core to the class' healing. That's fine. It's when the start to use them as a way to fix core issues (hot overheals and their impact on effective HPS) that things go awry. It's as if Holy priests were underpowered and given a Lightwell buff as a fix for their issues.

  18. #158
    Planck what do you play? PVP, 5 mans, 10 mans, 25's? Bank Alt? My apologies if you've mentioned this already but your posts lack any data to support your criticism so I get pretty bored of them and stop reading.

    I think this is a good buff. Yes there are limitations to it, but as i've said before, if I performed incredibly well in an encounter I would rather be seen as performing well and not just have my class labelled OP.

    I use shrooms in there current state on live. On most encounters I have no trouble keeping up with our other healers so things are only going to get better.

    Based off of my most recent Amber Shaper Encounter - Lleaff Nagrand 10/01/13 (can't post links yet due to post count)
    rejuv healed - 7,038,634 at 33.1% OH. So my OH from rejuv works out to (napkin math) 3,482,493.

    As shrooms in the current state don't really save anyone we can reasonably assume the it won't be an issue to wait for my shrooms to get fully charged.
    So 2,611,869 (75% of rejuv OH) can potentially get absorbed by shrooms but for the sake of the exercise I won't calculate for best case scenario, lets say 2/3 of my shrooms get charged/placed well/don't OH etc etc.

    I am left with an extra 1,741,246 to add onto my already 1,046,374 = 2,787,620. Based on this mushrooms grant higher HPS then lifeblood.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Lleaff View Post
    Planck what do you play? PVP, 5 mans, 10 mans, 25's? Bank Alt? My apologies if you've mentioned this already but your posts lack any data to support your criticism so I get pretty bored of them and stop reading.

    The issue is that the mushrooms will not absorb 75% of overheal with no max. ONce they're charged any further overheal is again wasted. Once full, they'll heal for, at most, an amount equal to your hp and that is a) assuming you pop all three and b) the heal amount will be split among everyone in range. If you're looking at the PTR note that it's not currently implemented correctly and so is WAY OP.*

    I do agree that getting them charged won't be hard - 600k overheal would charge them to 400k or about your HP. However, that overheal needs to come quickly if they're to be useful early in a fight. Trying to heal efficiently is actually penalizing yourself since the mushrooms will not be charged early or quickly and thus will be able to be used fewer times in the fight.

    *
    We’re still iterating on this design for Wild Mushrooms. Currently, they each absorb 25% overheal, up to a max of 33% of the Druid’s max health (total of 75% / 100% with 3 Mushrooms out). This max size isn’t working in build 16446, but we hope to hotfix that soon. Upon blooming, their accumulated healing is split over the targets they heal. Several parts of this aren’t yet working in build 16446, leading them to be massively overpowered (which we also hope to hotfix soon). Feedback, especially in future builds, is appreciated.
    http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/2...-issues/#post2
    Last edited by clevin; 2013-01-12 at 12:44 AM.

  20. #160
    The hotfix has been active for half a day at least, Planck.

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