Why exactly is the Empire/Sith bad?

[Lilly32]

They are realists and believe "Peace is a lie" that is pretty much a fact is there will never be peace unless you defeat all of your enemies. They embrace Darwinism. People are either made stronger through their trials and experiences or they remain weak and the weak are either delt with or they die on their own because they are fails and cant handle their trials. Again this is good. There is no place in society for the weak and worthless as they only make society as a whole weaker. So why are the Sith and the Empire as a whole considered bad? Also the whole comparing them to Nazis isnt exactly fair. The Sith dont discriminate against anyone, well other than the weak and useless. Everyone is given a chance to prove themselves useful.

[Magpai]

Because they use mass murder as a means of maintaining power? Just like any other totalitarian government.

People are so willing to write that off as a detail if the government in question has "good" or at least acceptable "values", but it's a big deal.

[Argroth]

Is this for real?

[Edge-]

They embrace Darwinism.

Oh, so they believe in evolution the belief random genetic mutation lead to species more suitably fit to thrive? Good for them!

I feel like this is a RP thread...might just be me though.

[kevincuomo]

I agree with every word you just said. And no this is not me trolling im dead serious.
Society as a whole has become pitiful, weak, fat and just dumb. Look at lions in the wild.. If one lion gets injured or is weak and falls behind.. well sorry buddy but see ya later. In other words.. Long live the sith!

[Argroth]

I agree with every word you just said. And no this is not me trolling im dead serious.
Society as a whole has become pitiful, weak, fat and just dumb. Look at lions in the wild.. If one lion gets injured or is weak and falls behind.. well sorry buddy but see ya later. In other words.. Long live the sith!

So you think you would thrive in a situation like that?

good luck.

[kevincuomo]

Maybe not, Who knows. Point is i wasn't raised to survive like that, which is why people these days are just pitiful.
Bunch of pansies running around this place no real world experience just spoiled brats. Maybe i just hate people so much because i have to deal with them every day and i see how dumb people can actually be and it honestly amazed me.

Some of the things i hear really just make me want to hurt them.

[Epicbawler]

Also the whole comparing them to Nazis isnt exactly fair. The Sith dont discriminate against anyone, well other than the weak and useless. Everyone is given a chance to prove themselves useful.

This isn't exactly true for the empire (in the original series at least). Palpatine was very discriminatory against non humans, which is why almost none of the imperial officers except Thrawn were aliens. Furthermore, you could argue that they committed genocide against the alderaanians by destroying their planet. The Sith in swtor are probably considered evil by relation to the empire in the original series.

[mittacc]

I believe that it was because they slaughtered all jedi, the incarnation of justice in their society.

[Last Starfighter]

They are realists and believe "Peace is a lie" that is pretty much a fact is there will never be peace unless you defeat all of your enemies. They embrace Darwinism. People are either made stronger through their trials and experiences or they remain weak and the weak are either delt with or they die on their own because they are fails and cant handle their trials. Again this is good. There is no place in society for the weak and worthless as they only make society as a whole weaker. So why are the Sith and the Empire as a whole considered bad? Also the whole comparing them to Nazis isnt exactly fair. The Sith dont discriminate against anyone, well other than the weak and useless. Everyone is given a chance to prove themselves useful.

Didn't the Empire blow up an entire planet? Killing a planet full of peaceful people, kids, women, etc is weak. That isn't strong. That's just a case of using a weapon of mass destruction to get what you want. Part of being strong is being able to solve things without killing everything in sight. And the empire was brought down by people who didn't need to use tactics like that. So the empire weren't the strongest. They were just bad. You want to live in a world where you could just get a knock at your door from the government and force choked to death?

[Argroth]

Maybe not, Who knows. Point is i wasn't raised to survive like that, which is why people these days are just pitiful.
Bunch of pansies running around this place no real world experience just spoiled brats. Maybe i just hate people so much because i have to deal with them every day and i see how dumb people can actually be and it honestly amazed me.

Some of the things i hear really just make me want to hurt them.

Wow, and I sometimes think I have a grim outlook on life.

At least I don't go around hoping the world was a murdering chaos filled one with psychopaths who will hunt me down because I'm not in thier evil empire.

I can see how SOME core concepts make a little sense but everything the empire does in its execution of it's ideas is just terrible.

If they arn't what Evil/bad is I dunno what else would be (rape is about the only thing the empire dosn't overtly do that is evil)

[saberon]

Didn't the Empire blow up an entire planet?

Yes, in addition, the Sith/Empire have, at one point or another:
- Frequently killed their own kind for personal advancement (and not for the "we kill so that there's peace" argument)
- Discriminated against every non-human in the galaxy
- Created and deployed numerous biological weapons with the sole intent of wiping out races
- Wiped out the majority of the Jedi
- Instigated a galactic Civil War on multiple occasions


But yeah, they just want peace...

[Frontenac]

They are realists and believe "Peace is a lie" that is pretty much a fact is there will never be peace unless you defeat all of your enemies. They embrace Darwinism. People are either made stronger through their trials and experiences or they remain weak and the weak are either delt with or they die on their own because they are fails and cant handle their trials. Again this is good. There is no place in society for the weak and worthless as they only make society as a whole weaker. So why are the Sith and the Empire as a whole considered bad? Also the whole comparing them to Nazis isnt exactly fair. The Sith dont discriminate against anyone, well other than the weak and useless. Everyone is given a chance to prove themselves useful.

The problem with Sith politics is that in order to climb the social ladder, you have to dispose of your rivals and superiors through either calumny or assassination. That means that the higher you are in the hierarchy, the more chances you have to get killed. That means that the stronger in the Empire gets killed more than the weaker. Also, that superior you managed to kill to get his place may have been a better Sith than you anyway, so you have weakened the Empire by taking his place. All those good elements that get killed is a waste. So the Sith Empire eats itself and finally crumbles.

Social darwinism does not work. What you consider "weak" and "wortheless" now may be precisely what you would need later. You know : "The stone that has been cast away by the builders..."

[moff]

the sith are not bad because they do not believe in good and bad anymore. they believe in weak and strong.

their goal is freedom, the sith code makes that clear. they despise the republic/jedi because they took that freedom from them, did not allow them to go their own way and led them to exile. which is the reason why their philosophy came to all about strenght and either train or destroy the weak, because they never want to let that happen to them again.

so in a way, the jedi created the sith and their codex by repressing and exiling them.

[Azhreia]

The core philosophy of the sith code isn't neccessarily bad or evil. To conclude that therefore the sith empire isn't bad/evil is a huge stretch though.

Even leaving our own modern day moral standards aside the majority of the sith can only be seen as dangerous murderous sociopaths. They aren't just ruthless and efficient, they are simply cruel and petty. Take the sith lord on Dromund Kaas who prefers to slowly kill slaves for his own amusement instead of bringing their rebellion down as fast as possible or the shennigans the dark council is pulling on Corellia where they throw away good soldiers to gain some advantage on each other instead of focussing on the goal at hand (conquering the planet for the empire).

There is a term coined for the kind of absurd evil we see in the empire: stupid evil.

[Cybran]

They lack control. They let emotions influence them. They draw power from hatred. What else do you need? They are the personification of chaos in the universe and don't have higher goals then to claim and maintain power.

[WoWGoneBad]

the sith are not bad because they do not believe in good and bad anymore. they believe in weak and strong.

their goal is freedom, the sith code makes that clear. they despise the republic/jedi because they took that freedom from them, did not allow them to go their own way and led them to exile. which is the reason why their philosophy came to all about strenght and either train or destroy the weak, because they never want to let that happen to them again.

so in a way, the jedi created the sith and their codex by repressing and exiling them.

not entirely true... while the Sith do believe in a strong/weak caste system thats not entirely how they come by their beliefs. Loss of freedom does not quite capture their religion. The Sith believe that Emotions can be used to gain more power from the Force, while the jedi believe that emotional detachment is key to mastering the Force.
Hererin is where the CORE divide between Jedi/Sith comes manifest. The Sith hate Jedi for their Exile but exile is not entirely a loss of freedom. I mean the Sith were still free to develop further into the Darkside and over the course of the EU(yea i did that)

We have seen over the years in both the movies and the EU where JEdi have let emotions drive them, fuel them. Take Obi Wan from Eps 1 during his fight with Maul.... His ANGER his RAGE at seeing his Master die FUELED his power in the Force giving him more speed, power, drive. He himself did not succumb to the Darkside.

Luke from Eps 4 during his fight with Vader.... when Vader threatened to seduce Leia to the Darkside, Luke's ANGER and HATRED of what his father had become what Luke was AFRAID of becoming FUELED is power in the Force giving him speed power drive to take down Vader and stop the Emperor.

Anikin when he faced Dooku for the first time... ANGER at seeing his master tossed round like a rag doll, RAGE that he could not run back to save Padme after the fall, again these emotions FUELED his power in the FOrce and gave him that speed power and drive.

now outta these 3 only Anikin TRULY fell to the Darkside but is lust for that power and desire to be save Padme took over his thought and reasoning and opened his downfall to the Darkside. Luke and Obi-Wan both came out of their encounters stronger in the Force but also Stronger in keeping control of their emotions.

Yes there are those Sith that feed of the fear anger and other dark emotions of others and delight in them.... but there are also those that do not. Take Bane for instance he didnt go out killing every fluffy taun taun just for shits n giggles... He used is power to Start a path that eventually lead to the downfall of the Jedi. yeah he did lure the Brotherhood of the Sith + the Jedi Coalition into that cave but that was to a design not just random bloodshed although I am sure he did enjoy it a bit.


lastly the Sith Empire and the Sith CODE are not one and the same. The Empire is nothing more than that and Empire but the Sith Code is a Philosophy. The Sith Empire does not itself LIVE to the Sith Code from what i have seen from Swtor and other EU hanging around but more to their selfish delight in the suffering of lower lifeforms.

I will be happy to go deeper into this subject but fo now will let you guys digest this bit of info. Yes the Sith EMPIRE is a true evil of the galaxy but the PHILOSOPHY of the Sith is a great deal more than good versus evil

[moff]

not entirely true... while the Sith do believe in a strong/weak caste system thats not entirely how they come by their beliefs. Loss of freedom does not quite capture their religion. The Sith believe that Emotions can be used to gain more power from the Force, while the jedi believe that emotional detachment is key to mastering the Force.
Hererin is where the CORE divide between Jedi/Sith comes manifest. The Sith hate Jedi for their Exile but exile is not entirely a loss of freedom.

Absolutely, but where does that really contradict what I said? with freedom I didnt only mean exile, but also the ability to explore all sides of the force, which is pretty much done by emotions, you're welcome to correct me here. can the dark side be used withhoug emotion? and can the light side be used with emotion?

but this restriction(=less freedom) to the light side/no emotions was what caused the exile in the first place, wasnt it? because the dark jedi refused to abandon the use of emotions and thereforre fell to the dark side.

and whats your opinion on how or why the sith started to believe in strong/weak?

[Lilly32]

I feel like this is a RP thread...might just be me though.

Well I certainly dont condone mass killing in RL.

---------- Post added 2013-01-10 at 08:04 AM ----------

Yes, in addition, the Sith/Empire have, at one point or another:
- Frequently killed their own kind for personal advancement (and not for the "we kill so that there's peace" argument)
- Discriminated against every non-human in the galaxy
- Created and deployed numerous biological weapons with the sole intent of wiping out races
- Wiped out the majority of the Jedi
- Instigated a galactic Civil War on multiple occasions


But yeah, they just want peace...

Havent the Jedi/Republic Troops also done horrible acts of their own? In a war just because one side is considered "The Good Guys" doesnt always mean they dont do bad things. I mean im sure everyone in the US agrees that slavery was wrong. But does that mean General Sherman had the right to march through the South and burn and loot every farm and city he came across? And you know damn well his troops probably raped at will as well and Im pretty sure every prisoner taken was probably treated in a horrible manner. Im honestly shocked he wasnt brought up on war crimes after the war. So just because everyone thinks the Republic is a bunch of Knights in Shining armor with their Jedi doesnt mean they havent committed terrible acts.

[Arlee]

Havent the Jedi/Republic Troops also done horrible acts of their own? In a war just because one side is considered "The Good Guys" doesnt always mean they dont do bad things. I mean im sure everyone in the US agrees that slavery was wrong. But does that mean General Sherman had the right to march through the South and burn and loot every farm and city he came across? And you know damn well his troops probably raped at will as well and Im pretty sure every prisoner taken was probably treated in a horrible manner. Im honestly shocked he wasnt brought up on war crimes after the war. So just because everyone thinks the Republic is a bunch of Knights in Shining armor with their Jedi doesnt mean they havent committed terrible acts.

So umm, let's not get off topic or else we'll need to shunt it off to Off-Topic