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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by moff View Post
    with freedom I didnt only mean exile, but also the ability to explore all sides of the force, which is pretty much done by emotions, you're welcome to correct me here. can the dark side be used withhoug emotion? and can the light side be used with emotion?

    but this restriction(=less freedom) to the light side/no emotions was what caused the exile in the first place, wasnt it? because the dark jedi refused to abandon the use of emotions and thereforre fell to the dark side.

    and whats your opinion on how or why the sith started to believe in strong/weak?
    well look at from Obi and Lukes standpoint. they were both Jedi but used emotions to Fuel their power of the Force. the Force itself is neither Light nor Dark (somebody said this in the SW universe cant remember who) but those words are used as i would say qualifiers so to speak.

    Also the Sith WERE able to explore all the Force had to offer ever since the Jedi Schism. They were exiled to some wayward planet where they did s they wished with their powers of the Force i mean since the schism there were several grps/cults of Sith. The Sith Brotherhood(Lost Tribe of the Sith Series and the Bane Books cover this Sith grp) Exar Kuns Sith, Freedon Naads Sith, Naga Sadows Sith. they may be all in the same i think but this is just a idea of their origins since the Schism.
    So there was no real lack of freedom for them to explore all sides of the force just exilement for wanting to use emotions to gain power which the Jedi were against.

    the ability to use ANY Force technique i would say is inherent in using the Force. but to use the Force to cause harm to others freely for pleasure and enjoymentand not in defense is what the Jedi would consider Darkside use.

    Well for me the Sith always had a strong/weak dominant mindset.The Sith believed the Jedi weak for not allowing the use of emotions when dealing with the Force and believed that those without Force powers were just plain weak and not worth living.

  2. #22
    Pandaren Monk WarpedAcorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lilly32 View Post
    They are realists and believe "Peace is a lie" that is pretty much a fact is there will never be peace unless you defeat all of your enemies. They embrace Darwinism. People are either made stronger through their trials and experiences or they remain weak and the weak are either delt with or they die on their own because they are fails and cant handle their trials. Again this is good. There is no place in society for the weak and worthless as they only make society as a whole weaker. So why are the Sith and the Empire as a whole considered bad? Also the whole comparing them to Nazis isnt exactly fair. The Sith dont discriminate against anyone, well other than the weak and useless. Everyone is given a chance to prove themselves useful.
    This is a good question, and not a clear cut one.

    Firstly, you have to decide what constitutes "good" and what constitutes "evil". For the context of this post, I am working on the assumption that "Good" equals self-sacrifice for the benefit of others, while "Evil" equals selfish pursuits at the expense of others.

    Secondly, you have to determine whether you are talking about Sith Philosophy, Sith Politics, or the Sith as individuals. As a whole, Dark Jedi Sith are both cruel and sadistic which pretty much pidgeonhole them into the evil villain catagory. Conversely, Light Jedi Sith are more noble and bear more similarities to Samurai or Knights Errant. Similar to Light Jed Sith, the Sith Military forces are typically depicted to be dutiful and honorbound which are qualities associated with "good" (their genocidal atrocities are usually at the command of Dark Sided Sith).

    Its a hard call to make, but the Sith/Empire as a whole do have one damning piece of culture:
    The Sith dont discriminate against anyone, well other than the weak and useless. Everyone is given a chance to prove themselves useful.
    This is false. The Sith HATE aliens. Outside of Humans and Purebloods, the only ones they tolerate are Chiss and Zabraks. They despise the other races, while The Republic welcomes all alien races. That's about the most damning part of their culture. Outside of that though, its basically a Warrior culture that rewards strength.

    So I would not call the Sith Empire "evil". I would, however, call the Dark Council and the Dark Lords bucking for power "evil". As a result, the government and philosophy becomes corrupted and twisted by their influence.


    One other note that I find odd about the Sith Code, the entire code centers around being free of rules and restraints. However, in Sith culture at least, it seems that the more powerful you become the more you are restrained. You don't see powerful Dark Jedi, lounging around and having a good time. Instead they are trapped in political power plays and games of intrigue, some afraid to leave the confines of their compounds. I thought that was the saddest thing about the Sith Warrior storyline. I never had more freedom than when I was an apprentice. And by the end I was in a position of power I could not escape from.

  3. #23
    High Overlord Freeasacar's Avatar
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    Because the Sith are little children who have been granted immeasurable power. What do you think a child would do with all that power? Act like a spoiled little brat and wreck shit up, that's what.

    I know that I've done more evil on my Dark Side Trooper (and have been revered by The Republic for it) than I ever have on my Light Side Imperial Agent (who rarely gets any thanks outside the Imperial Diplomatic Service members who I seldom encounter).

  4. #24
    cause the sith have a different view of the world and do not act the way we would think is approriate.
    therefore they're evil.

    the same way another race might look at us and deem us evil for fighting so much amongst ourself, but we dont call ourself evil now do we?

    different mind set, difference in whenver your evil or good.

  5. #25
    Because of the movie, obviously.
    Its very easy to portray an evil character. Ugly look and demonic laugh is all you need.

    Its not about actions. In movies the guy who is running around killing people could be a maniac or a hero.

    The empire is not evil and the resistance is not good.

    Its all about your point of view.

    If you are with Empire, the republic are terrorists. They kill innocent people loyal to empire. The easiest example is USA. Obama is the emperor, Osama is the evil terrorist.
    If you are with Republic, the empire is evil power. They invade your planets and make you work for them. Think about Iraq that was invaded by evil US army.

    Or USSR. For ussr citizens it was the place with free education, free health care, free place to live for young families, without unemployment and poor people, without people being shot and with really low crime rate. And USA for them was the place where capitalists exploited people as slaves, barely paying them and making billions. For them they were good, and usa was evil.
    For USA citizens their country was the place of freedom abd big opportunities where you was able to become rich and famous and get millions if you are lucky. And ussr for them was the place where government used people as slaves. For them ussr was evil and usa was good.
    Both of them thought that both countries want to invade each other and... i don't know... kill all children and women? I'm still not sure what americans and russians were afraid of.

    But the truth is that no one is evil. The "evil empire" can't exist. It will kill itself eventually. Its all about in what you believe. Some obvious values like hard work, honesty, love, sincerity, devotion, compassion, intellect - they are the same in all countries.


    Personally I think that republic is the real evil. They are classical terrorists that kill innocent people and destroy your country's property, rebels, that must be punished.
    The empire is not bad. It just cares about its own integrity. Without rebels the Empire would be a peaceful place without wars and useless murders.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by traen View Post
    Because of the movie, obviously.
    Its very easy to portray an evil character. Ugly look and demonic laugh is all you need.

    Its not about actions. In movies the guy who is running around killing people could be a maniac or a hero.

    The empire is not evil and the resistance is not good.

    Its all about your point of view.

    If you are with Empire, the republic are terrorists. They kill innocent people loyal to empire. The easiest example is USA. Obama is the emperor, Osama is the evil terrorist.
    If you are with Republic, the empire is evil power. They invade your planets and make you work for them. Think about Iraq that was invaded by evil US army.

    Or USSR. For ussr citizens it was the place with free education, free health care, free place to live for young families, without unemployment and poor people, without people being shot and with really low crime rate. And USA for them was the place where capitalists exploited people as slaves, barely paying them and making billions. For them they were good, and usa was evil.
    For USA citizens their country was the place of freedom abd big opportunities where you was able to become rich and famous and get millions if you are lucky. And ussr for them was the place where government used people as slaves. For them ussr was evil and usa was good.
    Both of them thought that both countries want to invade each other and... i don't know... kill all children and women? I'm still not sure what americans and russians were afraid of.

    But the truth is that no one is evil. The "evil empire" can't exist. It will kill itself eventually. Its all about in what you believe. Some obvious values like hard work, honesty, love, sincerity, devotion, compassion, intellect - they are the same in all countries.


    Personally I think that republic is the real evil. They are classical terrorists that kill innocent people and destroy your country's property, rebels, that must be punished.
    The empire is not bad. It just cares about its own integrity. Without rebels the Empire would be a peaceful place without wars and useless murders.
    You don't see the Republic enslaving people, doing demented experiments on them, destroy an entire population, segregating between races, etc. You treat the Republic as if it had attacked the Empire and are terrorists. It's the Empire that attacked the Republic. It's the Empire that afterwards has treatorously broke the Treaty of Coruscant. So yes, the Empire is evil, in all its forms, from the first Sith Empire to the Galactic Empire of Palpatine. Not all its subjects are, though.

    Star Wars is all about the fight between Good and Evil. It has been so since A New Hope. Evil Empire vs Good Republic/Rebel Alliance, Evil Sith vs Good Jedi. There's not a lot of place for relativism in Star Wars. Only characters can be placed on a grey scale.
    "Je vous répondrai par la bouche de mes canons!"

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    You don't see the Republic enslaving people, doing demented experiments on them, destroy an entire population, segregating between races, etc. You treat the Republic as if it had attacked the Empire and are terrorists. It's the Empire that attacked the Republic. It's the Empire that afterwards has treatorously broke the Treaty of Coruscant. So yes, the Empire is evil, in all its forms, from the first Sith Empire to the Galactic Empire of Palpatine. Not all its subjects are, though.
    Well, hello? Did not you play the empire quest line? Its all the same. Crazy pro-republic scientists making robots from people. The republic breaking the truth here and there. And yes, disarming bomb devices planted by republic terrorists in empire cities.


    Star Wars is all about the fight between Good and Evil. It has been so since A New Hope. Evil Empire vs Good Republic/Rebel Alliance, Evil Sith vs Good Jedi. There's not a lot of place for relativism in Star Wars. Only characters can be placed on a grey scale.
    Yes. But for Empire Evil is Republic and for Republic evil is Empire.

    Both of them kill. None of them are good.
    Republic is more pleasant. But their actions aren't.

  8. #28
    They're not bad. Just a different perspective. I agree more with the Empire's ideology, and Sith's Philosophy, than Republic/Jedi.

  9. #29
    Pandaren Monk WarpedAcorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    You don't see the Republic enslaving people, doing demented experiments on them, destroy an entire population, segregating between races, etc. You treat the Republic as if it had attacked the Empire and are terrorists. It's the Empire that attacked the Republic. It's the Empire that afterwards has treatorously broke the Treaty of Coruscant. So yes, the Empire is evil, in all its forms, from the first Sith Empire to the Galactic Empire of Palpatine. Not all its subjects are, though.

    Star Wars is all about the fight between Good and Evil. It has been so since A New Hope. Evil Empire vs Good Republic/Rebel Alliance, Evil Sith vs Good Jedi. There's not a lot of place for relativism in Star Wars. Only characters can be placed on a grey scale.

    The Jedi Knight storyline is entirely cleaning up the Republic's mess of Doomsday devices that were stolen by the Empire. While the Empire wanted to turn them on, The Republic authorized and created a myriad of devices that will destroy all life on a planet.

    Belsavis is a planet where The Republic is pitting alien species vs. species in race wars to collect combat data.

    Coruscant has several instances of politicians cheating and skirting the laws, one via a shipment of slave collars and another via mob connections. Then you have "The True Republic" questline where you can work to usurp a politician who wants to actively join the Empire.

    Hoth features an incident where Republic forces want to backstab Imperials immediately after working together, based on the notion that the Imperials will do it if they don't.

    The rest of the game is filled with instances like these, and they do not paint the Republic as a shining beacon of goodness and righteousness. Instead, I have felt the Republic is an insitution full of corruption and idiots (the finale of Trooper pissed me off). Meanwhile the Imperial soldiers are largely presented as insanely honorbound, but unfortunately are being led by walking Id's who ironically are the biggest chink in the Imperial army.

  10. #30
    Elemental Lord Noomz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevincuomo View Post
    I agree with every word you just said. And no this is not me trolling im dead serious.
    Society as a whole has become pitiful, weak, fat and just dumb. Look at lions in the wild.. If one lion gets injured or is weak and falls behind.. well sorry buddy but see ya later. In other words.. Long live the sith!
    Said the guy infront of a computer that's probably livign with his parents.

    I suppose you don't want healthcare if you get sick either. Well, good, gives room for others.

    Keep it civil
    Last edited by Darsithis; 2013-01-10 at 07:00 PM.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by traen View Post
    Well, hello? Did not you play the empire quest line? Its all the same. Crazy pro-republic scientists making robots from people. The republic breaking the truth here and there. And yes, disarming bomb devices planted by republic terrorists in empire cities.
    I am not very far in the Empire storyline, my Inquisitor beginning Balmorra, but if you are refering to Dromund Kaas I would say that Lord Gratham, who makes those cyborgs, is not pro-republic. As for the bombs, aren't they from rebels within the Empire?

    Of course, in a war, you won't always tell the truth. If you meant a truce, then once it has been broken, it cannot be broken again. And it's the Empire that has broken it. And for sure the Republic may use some violent means in a war. They cannot hope to win by throwing daisies at their opponents.

    I wouldn't say the Empire considers the Republic evil since the Sith are utterly lacking any concept of Good and Evil. For them, the end justifies the means, and if that means enslaving a population or destroying a planet to achieve their goal, then why not ? The Republic represents only a hinderance preventing them to dominate the Galaxy, an obstacle that must be destroyed. An obstacle that also shelters the Jedi Order against which they want to exact revenge. If their means are no good, their goals are not either. The Sith do not conquer the Galaxy to install a "better" order, or for the advancement of humanity or for civilization or any good intentions all dictators usually use to justify their position. A Sith's goal is only to quench an unsatiable thirst for power, and mainly personal power. They are a destructive and often demented force that cannot be considered good at any rate.
    "Je vous répondrai par la bouche de mes canons!"

  12. #32
    i certainly don't think the empire and sith are evil. the empire suits my beliefs very well, excluding the racism. i would love to live on an imperial controlled world. however, the sith are too... unstable. if there could be an empire without sith, but with the core beliefs of the empire (again, excluding racism) it'd be wonderful.

  13. #33
    They murder anyone they want, and they don't really like aliens. Yup. Sounds like a fine Empire to live in!

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by kevincuomo View Post
    Maybe not, Who knows. Point is i wasn't raised to survive like that, which is why people these days are just pitiful.
    Bunch of pansies running around this place no real world experience just spoiled brats. Maybe i just hate people so much because i have to deal with them every day and i see how dumb people can actually be and it honestly amazed me.

    Some of the things i hear really just make me want to hurt them.
    Yes people can be stupid. And the smarter you are the dumber everyone else seems. Im sure once you rise to the pinnacle of power all your views will be justified, but until then I would suggest that our pitiful society is a better place for you. I am seeing a certain irony here because you are asking for a Sith like society and at the same time sound like someone who is being oppressed. Do you really think that if the Sith realized their goals the galaxy would be a better place? Its not like once all the weak are eliminated the people that are left would just live in some sort of utopian society. There would be fighting among the Sith themselves to eliminate the weak among them. It is a never ending cycle. The only good I can see coming out of this is the eventual elimination of the Gungans.

  15. #35
    They aren't bad. Considering the vastness of galactic society they are fairly similar to the republic and jedi. Except of course that their philosophy is completely opposite the jedi. However, I find Jedi philosophy to be just as awful as sith philosophy. If anything maybe worse; it's better to define yourself through passion than nothing..

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by rakhakash View Post
    They murder anyone they want, and they don't really like aliens. Yup. Sounds like a fine Empire to live in!
    they don't murder. they just aren't scared to execute people when it's needed. something that modern society is very much lacking. i like how execution is used as punishment for most crimes.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Mcstunner View Post
    they don't murder. they just aren't scared to execute people when it's needed. something that modern society is very much lacking. i like how execution is used as punishment for most crimes.
    It is even used as punishment for things that are not crimes. And as a way to climb up the social ladder. In fact assassination is for them the answer to almost everything.


    I do hope some of the comments here are from spoiled and angsty teenagers who have not yet understood how many sacrifices their forebearers have been through to eliminate for them the kind of system they like so much in the Sith Empire.
    "Je vous répondrai par la bouche de mes canons!"

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    It is even used as punishment for things that are not crimes. And as a way to climb up the social ladder. In fact assassination is for them the answer to almost everything.


    I do hope some of the comments here are from spoiled and angsty teenagers who have not yet understood how many sacrifices their forebearers have been through to eliminate for them the kind of system they like so much in the Sith Empire.
    i'm no angsty teenager, and quite frankly i'm pretty sick of that bullshit cop-out response. and what you're talking about is how the sith work, not the empire. you get promoted in the empire for efficiency, not killing someone a higher rank than you.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Mcstunner View Post
    i'm no angsty teenager, and quite frankly i'm pretty sick of that bullshit cop-out response. and what you're talking about is how the sith work, not the empire. you get promoted in the empire for efficiency, not killing someone a higher rank than you.

    I did not call you by name. But anyway. How the Sith works is how the Empire works. They are the absolute rulers of the Empire. If your are no Sith, you're stuck at the bottom of the ladder. And if you are not "efficient" enough (the definition of "efficient enough" being decided by your superior), you may very well get killed by a capricious Sith that has not taken his coffee that morning, instead of being transfered to a place where you would be more efficient.
    "Je vous répondrai par la bouche de mes canons!"

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    I did not call you by name. But anyway. How the Sith works is how the Empire works. They are the absolute rulers of the Empire. If your are no Sith, you're stuck at the bottom of the ladder. And if you are not "efficient" enough (the definition of "efficient enough" being decided by your superior), you may very well get killed by a capricious Sith that has not taken his coffee that morning, instead of being transfered to a place where you would be more efficient.
    sorry to accuse, i thought you were speaking directly to me. i still believe that term is a cheap cop-out though, no different than saying "ur stoopid" to win an argument. anyway, i don't think you saw what i said. i said an empire without sith. the empire itself does NOT do the power through murder deal. the sith do. even under sith control they do not gain ranks by killing their superiors. i can't remember the quest, but a person is actually executed for killing a superior at one point.

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