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  1. #1

    Does the increase in FoF proc chance mean we aren't getting Water Jet?

    The pessimism in me is concerned. Also, the lack of Water Jet in the most recent notes is also concerning.

  2. #2
    It does look like it.. Can't say am too pissed, might even get me to play Frost now..

  3. #3
    If this rather depressing assumption is correct, then we are probably seeing a hidden nerf in this patch for Frost. I highly doubt a 3% increased proc chance generates more then 1-2 charges per 24 seconds.

    As I've now noted in multiple threads, an optimistic view of this would show that Blizzard noticed Frost's rather tedious dry spell rotation when Freeze/Frozen Orb were on cooldown, but I don't think a 3% increased chance alleviates that much.

  4. #4
    Legendary! Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sw1tch View Post
    If this rather depressing assumption is correct, then we are probably seeing a hidden nerf in this patch for Frost. I highly doubt a 3% increased proc chance generates more then 1-2 charges per 24 seconds.

    As I've now noted in multiple threads, an optimistic view of this would show that Blizzard noticed Frost's rather tedious dry spell rotation when Freeze/Frozen Orb were on cooldown, but I don't think a 3% increased chance alleviates that much.
    Although you need to keep in mind Frostbolt was buffed by 24% and removed the ramp-up needed from it, meaning, at 3 stacks anyways, this is a pure 9% increase to FB.

    While overall it's a nerf to our burst, it's a buff to sustained, thus resulting in better DPS, but at the cost of more annoying Alter Time moments :\

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  5. #5
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    The ramp up isn't really removed, only for frostbolt. And this is why Frostbolt is buffed to compensate. But yes, it's a 9% increase in the spell dps, around +2% in global DPS increase. I would have prefer they really remove the ramp-up.

    For Water jet, they have tell they don't like the result, at the end of 5.1 ptr.
    They change Freeze on boss and upgraded the proc rate a little. The 4pT15 is upgrade it by far. So it seem we won't have Water Jet.
    They choose to have less but more random FoF proc.

    Even with the 9% boost of Frostbolt and Waterbolt, they still have to boost damage to compensate. For this, they can boost bf-ffb, add damage to Deep Freeze, boost IL (I don't think because of PvP), etc.
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  6. #6
    My hope is we still get Water Jet but it becomes a way to reliably proc Brain Freeze instead.

  7. #7
    Warchief Kuni Zyrekai's Avatar
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    Does the increase in FoF proc chance mean we aren't getting Water Jet?
    Probably. It accounts for the damage loss of having no freeze well enough, so I wouldn't expect water jet to show up anymore.

  8. #8
    Stood in the Fire Caribald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Although you need to keep in mind Frostbolt was buffed by 24% and removed the ramp-up needed from it, meaning, at 3 stacks anyways, this is a pure 9% increase to FB.
    Well, it's 'only' a 1.24/1.15 = 7.826% increase to Frostbolt, but yes, this is a nice change My frostbolt debuff actually falls off sometimes if I faceroll the instant cast procs and don't keep an eye on it and make sure it's refreshed - and it makes target swapping painless.
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  9. #9
    Dreadlord
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    I´m very sceptic regarding frost changes: Well, lets see what we have in 5.2 so far:

    Invocation: QoL improvement, but a scaling nerf. Assuming 40% haste (which should be no problem with T15 gear):

    5.1 @ 40% haste: 125 * 40 / 44,29 = 112,89
    5.2 @ 40% haste: 115 * 60 / 62,14 = 111,04

    Frostbolt ramp up gone but still there for Ice Lance. Should go forever! The 7,8% Frostbolt buff are an overall ~1,5 buff to our dps

    Petfreeze no longer gives us a charge vs stune immune bosses, but FoF proc chances from Frostbolt, FFB, Frozen Orb, Blizzard and Scorch are slightly increased. It´s an QoL decrease in my opinion and we still have to math out, if that slight proc buff can compensate the loss of petnovas charge


    T15 2p is a nightmare in my opinion. 12% haste for 30 seconds will bring us way below gcd cap, not to mention bloodlust and (for me) troll berserk. They didn´t solved scaling issue for frost, no the added fuel to the fire : /
    T15 4p is an another thing for the rng department. It can be good and give you a good time, but as we all now, if rng hates you, you will have a horrible time during raids.

    Did I miss something?
    Last edited by citizenpete; 2013-01-10 at 11:50 AM.

  10. #10
    Warchief Kuni Zyrekai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by citizenpete View Post
    Invocation: QoL improvement, but a scaling nerf.
    Yep. I'm a tiny bit concerned about that, but not massively. Remember we gained a slight haste scaling boost by the added FoF proc chances and frostbolt damage. I don't have hard numbers on this yet, but I still think haste might win out.

    Petfreeze no longer gives us a charge vs stune immune bosses, but FoF proc chances from Frostbolt, FFB, Frozen Orb, Blizzard and Scorch are slightly increased. It´s an QoL decrease in my opinion and we still have to math out, if that slight proc buff can compensate the loss of petnovas charge
    I had worked out the frostbolt/freeze changes out to 2.1 million damage lost on my H Zor'lok log I was using, and a gain of 1.7m. The FoF proc rate should cover that easily, and then a tiny bit more. It only needs to give me 3 more procs over the whole fight to be a gain.

    On the QoL side, I don't believe it'll be that huge an issue. IV/AT lines up with orb and I usually don't have an issue sitting on freeze's CD because I tend to get 2 procs fairly quickly with it while waiting on brain freeze.

    T15 2p is a nightmare in my opinion. 12% haste for 30 seconds will bring us way below gcd cap, not to mention bloodlust and (for me) troll berserk.
    T15 4p is an another thing for the rng department. It can be good and give you a good time, but as we all now, if rng hates you, you will have a horrible time during raids.

    Did I miss something?
    It's looking like GCD cap without either of those two will be ~9.1k haste. Anything further still reduces frostbolt and bomb ticks, so it's still good, just not as good. Adding time warp into the mix almost GCD caps frostbolt at that point, at 95.6% haste. I think it's an interesting point in gear, if nothing else. It'll allow us to focus on crit cap after a certain ilvl, which in turn bumps mastery's value up.

    21% FoF won't be bad though. I don't see it ever giving you a dry streak that'll last that long. The RNG in this game hates me more than anything else I know, and I don't get too screwed for procs that often as it is.

  11. #11
    Dreadlord
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    Zorlok is a good example for an QoL decrease imho. During dance and running circles on that platform, I always try to save procs for the next attenuation and then get another one during dance. I will miss that : /

    You´re point of view is more optimistic and I really, really hope, you´re right!

    *Edit* Where is the interaction with the pet? Summon and forget on patchwerk and put in a glyph on movement fights?


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    Last edited by citizenpete; 2013-01-10 at 12:26 PM.

  12. #12
    Warchief Kuni Zyrekai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by citizenpete View Post
    OT: Just joined a 25m progression guild, can´t wait to dance with you on wol again : )
    Excellent! Come smash my wind lord record before I get a heroic weapon.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuni Zyrekai View Post
    Excellent! Come smash my wind lord record before I get a heroic weapon.
    Goood Lord!! That´s a nice parse. Still lack gear and only got the chance to do the first five in Mogu. Hope to get a chance next week (Maybe terrace tonight, but I doubt it).

  14. #14
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    OK, I just have a sharing of point of view with Lhiv, on Tweeter. He math that remove of Freeze (-2 ppm) and new proc rate (+1 ppm) will result in a loss of a FoF proc per minute, in average.

    I'm globally ok with this number. If we add the little boost to Frostbolt, it will give an even change.

    But I think that have a problematic consequences: scaling with haste will be a lot better than actually.
    More FB = more proc

    And the T15 will do nothing for this, quite the contrary.
    2 piece - GCD cap problem
    4 piece - more proc rate = more FB wanted = more haste ....
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  15. #15
    Warchief Kuni Zyrekai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathyiel View Post
    OK, I just have a sharing of point of view with Lhiv, on Tweeter. He math that remove of Freeze (-2 ppm) and new proc rate (+1 ppm) will result in a loss of a FoF proc per minute, in average.
    Well yeah, but the frostbolt buff is fairly significant. I did some math on some of my logs, and it seems like the frostbolt change with the FoF proc rate will be a slight buff. Now, I don't know how well invoc will work out with regards to stacking during cooldowns, but I doubt very much that frost's overall DPS will drop as of current. We'll lose a bit of burst, but sustained came up.

    I'm a wee bit worried about secondary scaling, but as long as it works out overall, it shouldn't be too bad.

  16. #16
    Dreadlord
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    Napkin math say 1 IL less pm is a ~1.5% dps decrease?

    P.s. I wish they would fix secondary stats scaling in any way
    Last edited by citizenpete; 2013-01-10 at 01:44 PM.

  17. #17
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    Yep, it's the conclusion I also made myself.
    Very very big problem with haste. 8.5k haste to cap it on my gob.
    With stat and intel increase with T15 gear, crit will be capped without much work.

    Will we be like at the end of DS ? haste and crit capped ...
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  18. #18
    Warchief Kuni Zyrekai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by citizenpete View Post
    Napkin math say 1 IL less pm is a ~1.5% dps decrease?

    P.s. I wish they would fix secondary stats scaling in any way
    The frostbolt buff offsets that. Losing freeze entirely meant I lost 2.1 million damage in ice lance. The frostbolt buff on existing frostbolt damage was ~631k added. Time gap on those lances was 16.8 seconds, which gave me about 10 frostbolts and ~2 ice lances from those. That gives ~1.7m total gained, which only needs 3 ice lances to make up for it. It works out.

  19. #19
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    don't forget that Frozen orb also have the proc increase
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  20. #20
    Dreadlord
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    With Troll berserk, I´m @ 51% haste with T15 2p and 0 haste from gear oO

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuni Zyrekai View Post
    The frostbolt buff offsets that. Losing freeze entirely meant I lost 2.1 million damage in ice lance. The frostbolt buff on existing frostbolt damage was ~631k added. Time gap on those lances was 16.8 seconds, which gave me about 10 frostbolts and ~2 ice lances from those. That gives ~1.7m total gained, which only needs 3 ice lances to make up for it. It works out.
    I offseted frostbolt buff with invocation nerf. But anyway, even if we´re do the same damage as in 5.1, frost is still a bit weak
    Last edited by citizenpete; 2013-01-10 at 02:03 PM.

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