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  1. #61
    I'm interested to see which direction they take SW:I, but it's at least good to hear they're aware of the problem.


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  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Twintop View Post
    Speaking of SWI...:


    https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...36727449776128


    Looks like we're getting that SWI redesign we've been asking for.
    Not going to lie, I kind of smiled when I saw you reply to that.
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  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Twintop View Post
    Speaking of SWI...:


    https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...36727449776128


    Looks like we're getting that SWI redesign we've been asking for.
    Thank god.

    Now if only they fixed spectral guise into something useful?

    Want my speculation? PW:I - consumes all dot's and inflicts all remaining time as damage equally the total damage left on the DoT's.

  4. #64
    decent burst buttons??? Is he kiddin us??

    BTW, I think that's not enough. I mean if, for example, MB and FDCL give you a +X% burst dmg and SW:I gives you a +X/2% nowadays, and they fix SW:I, our DPS will still suck compared to other classes, specially in single target fights. Ok, great, a redesigned SW:I gives us a new option, but everything will remain the same. The rest of the classes will still be scaling much better than us. The main handicaps and flaws of our class will remain the same.
    Last edited by Eldarc; 2013-01-15 at 02:11 AM.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    I'm interested to see which direction they take SW:I, but it's at least good to hear they're aware of the problem.
    Iirc they have a way of tracking Talent / Glyph usage that they are paying close attention to. Just from DS and Cascade changes you can tell they're actually using the info. I just think SW:I needed such a large reworking that they had to wait for a Patch.

  6. #66
    Unless the reworked SW:I bumps our single target dps by about 25,000 it isnt going to do shit to fix shadow. Even if it did boost shadows single target dps by 25,000, we would still fall mid-range and we would still get worse as we went because shadow scales so far beyond bad it isnt funny. Our mastery is a joke , and our resource does not scale in any/way/shape form. Halo is terrible and needs a rework, cascade should also be redone. Why does cascade have an all-dps or all-healing mechanic when it does the same dmg output as divine star or halo in the relative sense.

    the 4pc is a joke beyond all set piece bonus jokes. Your going to make the set bonus based on a mechanic that does not work on somewhere around 50% of the current fights in the game? Man I hope that AI change is pretty amazing.

    Mind flay's dps output is laughable

    still cant cast anything on the move

    ----
    a spell to build up shadow orbs pre-combat(see moonkin spell for changing eclipse) or warlock spell for building resource which causes my guild to use a 20 second macro countdown on raid bosses.
    buff mind flay // let it be castable on the move
    fix shadow orbs to scale somehow/some way with stats
    fix our mastery

    do these things ON TOP OF the rework of SW:I and the AI of shadowy apparitions then we might be getting somewhere.

    While your at it , why dont you change the mind spike glyph to be your "next shadow spell". So it also affects the cast of VT, call it a quality of life change.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-15 at 11:59 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldarc View Post
    decent burst buttons??? Is he kiddin us??
    This is ghostcrawler , a month ago he said shadows single target dps was perfect........................................................
    Last edited by jonish; 2013-01-15 at 11:58 AM.
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  7. #67
    He's now saying " The idea being that you might swap from TV to DS when you get the proc, so that the RNG is something you can actually do something with rather than it just being RNG for extra damage."

    Hey doesn't that describe SA...? WTH NO!

  8. #68
    No, warlock do not generate resources out of combat, its more like:

    Destruction: i'm full ember, please pull quickly

    Demo: 1000/1000 fury pull naaaaaoooooo!

    Affly: would u please wait a bit longer? i forgot to DS the last trash and now i'm out of shards





    ...or do i really missed that? its not like i would need it, i'm 24/7 affly i always inc full shards oO

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by jonish View Post
    Unless the reworked SW:I bumps our single target dps by about 25,000 it isnt going to do shit to fix shadow. Even if it did boost shadows single target dps by 25,000, we would still fall mid-range and we would still get worse as we went because shadow scales so far beyond bad it isnt funny. Our mastery is a joke , and our resource does not scale in any/way/shape form. Halo is terrible and needs a rework, cascade should also be redone. Why does cascade have an all-dps or all-healing mechanic when it does the same dmg output as divine star or halo in the relative sense.

    the 4pc is a joke beyond all set piece bonus jokes. Your going to make the set bonus based on a mechanic that does not work on somewhere around 50% of the current fights in the game? Man I hope that AI change is pretty amazing.

    Mind flay's dps output is laughable

    still cant cast anything on the move

    ----
    a spell to build up shadow orbs pre-combat(see moonkin spell for changing eclipse) or warlock spell for building resource which causes my guild to use a 20 second macro countdown on raid bosses.
    buff mind flay // let it be castable on the move
    fix shadow orbs to scale somehow/some way with stats
    fix our mastery

    do these things ON TOP OF the rework of SW:I and the AI of shadowy apparitions then we might be getting somewhere.

    While your at it , why dont you change the mind spike glyph to be your "next shadow spell". So it also affects the cast of VT, call it a quality of life change.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-15 at 11:59 AM ----------



    This is ghostcrawler , a month ago he said shadows single target dps was perfect........................................................
    TY for exposing what I tried to express in another thread (edit: i was wrong, in this very thread :P) some hours ago but completely failing due to my poor English. This was what I mainly meant. Fixing SW:I won't do anything to fix our weak DPS. It will only give us another tool, but not better than the ones we have nowadays. And if it's finally better than FDCL and MB, then these 2 will be useless, which is not what they said they want, they said they want 3 useful and even talents per tier.
    Last edited by Eldarc; 2013-01-15 at 01:14 PM.

  10. #70
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    Its pretty obvious most of you dont know the mathematical meaning of scales/scaling. In terms of stat scaling Shadowpriests are actually somewhat average (same level as Aff-Warlocks, only topped by Mages and Rogues). Their dmg is just really shit overall, so they are bad dps on single target fights. Obviously they are still decent whenever they can Multidot.

    Examples for specs with bad stat scaling(based on simulationcraft results) would be Frost, Unholy and Arms. They all have around 70% of the stat scaling of Shadowpriests.

  11. #71
    Im pretty sure affl scaling is currently the best in the game, I'll check again later but I am positive SP scaling is nowhere near affli atm.

  12. #72
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    Well i can give you a few stat scaling examples. The following numbers represent the %dmg increase you get by upgrading your gear by 1 Tier-Level based on the T14H and T14N simulationcraft results.

    Arcane: 25,7%
    Frost: 24,8%
    Affl: 27,9%
    Demo: 26,3%
    Shadow: 28,1%
    Arms: 20,5%
    Assasination: 41,1%

    So actually Mages are worse than SPriests. Pretty much every spec is around 24-28% though, with only a few outliers. Arms, Frost and Unholy being examples for bad scaling specs and Assasination Rogues being completely over the top. So you can pretty much expect they will be far ahead in a few Tiers, when no changes are being made.

    Those results are ofcourse subject to error based on different values of set bonuses, mistakes made by simulationcraft and different availabity of gear for each spec. They can only give a rough estimate about scaling in future Tiers.
    Last edited by burk23; 2013-01-15 at 02:16 PM.

  13. #73
    Bloodsail Admiral Frmercury's Avatar
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    Simcraft is not all that accurate for may class / specs.

    Compared to Mages and Warlocks Shadow scales badly with increases in Intellect.

  14. #74
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    I agree, simulationcraft doesnt deliver 100% accurate results. But u deliver no proof whatsoever for your statement.

    When also taking the qualitative results from raidbots (based on thousands of parses) into consideration i come to the same results as simulationcraft. The scaling is pretty much identical to warlocks/mages. The problem is, that shadow just flat out does less dmg than most other casters. What you can also see on raidbots is, that casters scale better than melee in general, with rogues being the exception.

    If you extrapolate the results from raidbots you should end up with something like this in the near future:

    1) Rogues
    2) Warlocks/Mages
    3) big gap
    4) Shadowpriests
    5) Melee

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by zsun View Post
    And yes, there are people who use it. It may not be you and me, but there are people out there who use it. Do a couple of LFRs, there's bound to be a few times where you see some weird aura on your screen that resembles the FDCL proc.
    Is that what the hell that is? I was in a LFR recently and saw a proc on *my* spriest but couldn't do anything about it nor figure out what was causing it.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by burk23 View Post
    I agree, simulationcraft doesnt deliver 100% accurate results. But u deliver no proof whatsoever for your statement.

    When also taking the qualitative results from raidbots (based on thousands of parses) into consideration i come to the same results as simulationcraft. The scaling is pretty much identical to warlocks/mages. The problem is, that shadow just flat out does less dmg than most other casters. What you can also see on raidbots is, that casters scale better than melee in general, with rogues being the exception.

    If you extrapolate the results from raidbots you should end up with something like this in the near future:

    1) Rogues
    2) Warlocks/Mages
    3) big gap
    4) Shadowpriests
    5) Melee
    Ok, maybe you're right. Yet, SP DPS sucks hard. Anyway, even if the % scale factor is the same, the higher the IL, the bigger is the difference between a warlock DPSand a SP DPS. So, in some way, we "scale" worse than lock.

  17. #77
    Bloodsail Admiral Frmercury's Avatar
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    Precisely. The gap between Mages / Locks and Shadow has only grown as the tier has gone on instead of staying relative.

  18. #78
    Some one in your raid had SWI, if one priest has SWI every priest gets the UI proc I think.

    @burk, its clearly not what is happening in game, so i am pretty sure those numbers are wrong. Plus you did it wrong, ilvl increase doesn't mean linear increase. Thinking the dmg increase between 500ilvl and 505 is the same as 505 to 510 is wrong.

    Blizz tweaks spells at the end so "we should" be doing the same dps on single target in full bis, the road for some classes to get to this point is shorter than other classes, and sometimes(like this tier) some classes just go overboard(mages/lock/fury).

  19. #79
    Ty, Burk, for bringing up these numbers. There are numerous complaints about shadow scaling over several threads in this forum, but no one ever presented any data to back up this claim (or presented irrelevant data, like comparing normalized scale factors of different specs (and, therefore, normalized by different values)). My personal experience was quite the opposite, my dps during the first weeks (~467 ilvl) was terrible, but has increased more than the dps of the other classes.

    Another thing that bothers me is how people intentionally compares us to the overpowered classes (namely affliction and arcane) and then conclude that we need buffs when we are, as a matter of fact, above average. Actually, we'd be the top dps in 10-man if they nerfed the outliers (http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...14/60/default/) and still close to the top in 25-man (http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...14/60/default/).

    Quote Originally Posted by Falsified View Post
    @burk, its clearly not what is happening in game, so i am pretty sure those numbers are wrong. Plus you did it wrong, ilvl increase doesn't mean linear increase. Thinking the dmg increase between 500ilvl and 505 is the same as 505 to 510 is wrong.
    He never said that the ilvl increase lead to a linear increase in dps, and the way dps increases with ilvl is irrelevant in his model.
    If we had the equations for dps of every class we could just derivate the scale factors, but since we don't (no one has), we estimate the dps increase we had in the past and them extrapolate to the gear levels that don't yet exist in the game, it's not perfect, since we don't have the same scale factors over every point of the gear level axis, but you can't claim to have a better estimate as you don't have the equation to our dps.
    Last edited by Taradenha; 2013-01-15 at 03:44 PM.

  20. #80
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    Basically what those number mean is the following. Lets say you are doing 100k dps now and a Warlock with the same gear is doing 110k dps. Then at some point in the future you are gonna do 150k dps and the warlock is gonna do 165k dps. The relative difference is the same, so its not a scaling issue. This relative difference of 10% could be overcome by giving SPriest a flat 10% dmg modifier.

    Now those numbers are completely made up and dont reflect the actual difference. Its just an example to display what those scaling values mean.

    EDIT: On the other hand it means that in this scenario a Rogue would be doing 90k dps now but 170k in the same future scenario, thus actually overtaking the other two classes. (again numbers are made up just to make a point)
    Last edited by burk23; 2013-01-15 at 03:52 PM.

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