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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Espada View Post
    They have no technical limitation at all to make it so, whether it's a weapon enchant or not. We are all going on assumptions, yours is that it's likely that the 2-bonus will proc 1 time each 1:40 mins?

    There's no technical limitation, but it would be a pointless and confusing implementation. There is no reason to have the 2 pc give you 2 independent RPPM effects instead of a single one. They would have included that in the explanation of the proc rates if they were doing anything of the sort. It's really not an assumption.

  2. #42
    Agreed that it will be confusing. Sincerely, I only expect it because the 2-set for dps is beyond horrible with those ppm, and even doubling the chance only makes it bland.

  3. #43
    Stood in the Fire
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    0.6 PPM looks decent as Fury since it procs from absolutely anything and since Fury does a lot of hits per minute, it will be fine, if anything they will buff it slightly but don't expect PPM to be 1 or higher as Fury, not gonna happen folks. There is also no internal cooldown, total uptime can't be too high otherwise we would be enraged most of the time (remember we have other Enrage sources).
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  4. #44
    I don't understand the Prot 2pc bonus, as it makes IV completely pointless, if it works as I understand it.

    The old description was:
    Your Shield Slam and Revenge have a 10% chance to activate Victory Rush and increase the healing done by the next Impending Victory by 100%.
    The new description is:
    Warrior
    - We will reword the 2pc to be more clear about how it works. “Your Shield Slam and Revenge have a 10% chance to activate Victory Rush or Impending Victory as if you had killed your target.”
    The healing increase of IV is gone, but that's ok, since the "proc on kill" of IV is already twice as powerful as the regular one.

    Assuming you always hit your Revenge and Shield Slam buttons you will get approximately 16 of those in one minute. If you add Sword and Board you will reach something like 20 hits per minute. That's 2 procs per minute on average of the 2pc bonus. This is exactly the same as the CD on Impending Victory. IV and Victory Rush will both provide the same amount of healing (glyphed or not) and the same amount of procs per minute. And there's no indication that the 2pc does NOT reset the CD of the regular IV (in fact, it should reset the CD according to the description of IV). In other words, they're equally powerful.

    Sure, you will get a few more IVs out (but only 10% healing), since you will never get the 2 procs per minute reliably, but that should even out in the long run. So what's the point? Enraged Regen (or 2nd Wind) is a much better choice if you have the 2pc bonus.

  5. #45
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warrax View Post
    0.6 PPM looks decent as Fury since it procs from absolutely anything and since Fury does a lot of hits per minute, it will be fine, if anything they will buff it slightly but don't expect PPM to be 1 or higher as Fury, not gonna happen folks. There is also no internal cooldown, total uptime can't be too high otherwise we would be enraged most of the time (remember we have other Enrage sources).
    Do you even know what a PPM system is?
    Last edited by Darkfriend; 2013-01-12 at 08:30 AM.

  6. #46
    Moderator eddytheone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    Do you even know what a PPM system is?
    I actually lol'ed irl

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Espada View Post
    Agreed that it will be confusing. Sincerely, I only expect it because the 2-set for dps is beyond horrible with those ppm, and even doubling the chance only makes it bland.
    /facepalm

    The 2P will be amazing for Arms and Fury equally, Fury having a lower proc chance than Arms is par for the course and expected due to the already higher uptime on Enrage, higher APM, and Raging Blow being tied with it.

    Contrary to what people believe, 0.6 is fine with the RPPM system. It will essentially on average boil down to a 6.60% chance to proc per swing as Fury with only the Attack Speed buff (Being Doubled at that! - Or untill GC answer's my tweet). Please notice I said average above, this does not mean it will always and forever be a static 6.6% chance to proc per swing. The highest it'll get is around the 12% range if a full 10 seconds with out a proc occurring.

    This is a VERY strong 2P bonus in comparison to the past's bonuses, this alone is MUCH stronger that a static 25% damage boost to just Bloodthirst alone.
    Remember Dancing Steel has a proc rate of 2 in the RPPM system and from my logs can range from ~50% to ~85% uptimes on bosses. While the 2P Bonus does not have an ICD (That we know of.) just like Dancing Steel you should be expecting a little over 1/4th the duration of Dancing Steel as Enrage. (Before Clipping/Overwrites.)

    In case you're wondering where I am pulling my numbers, you can look here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...jMjBZTHc#gid=0

    If anything, I would be more concerned over the 4P.
    Recklessness (50%) + Skull Banner (35%) = 85% Crit when used together.
    That means you only need 19.8% Crit from gear to make sure EVERY ABILITY for 10 seconds Crit.

    To make the 4P most effective for yourself, you'll HAVE to raid with other Warriors, and pray the other is a Tank.
    Proper usage of this would be to have your Prot Warrior use his Skull Banner on the pull as you pop Recklessness. Then as his Skull Banner wears off you pop your own Skull Banner and continue to DPS. This gives you a mini-Recklessness during your 2nd Colossus Smash of the fight as well as making sure not one % of crit is wasted. - While eventually during the 20% phase you'll want to use Reckless and your own Banner to make sure every Execute Crits.

    If you don't raid with a Prot Warrior, one of the dps Warriors is gonna have to suck it up with a personal DPS loss and damn near nullification of their own skull banner at the start of the fight and since you might get 2-3 usages out of an entire fight is a hefty price.

    I also don't like the idea of trying more self benefit from a raid utility. - I already felt guilty as hell when I didn't have T14 4P and I was selfish enough to save Skull Banner for my own personal dps on farm bosses.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by LordSpaztic View Post
    Remember Dancing Steel has a proc rate of 2 in the RPPM system and from my logs can range from ~50% to ~85% uptimes on bosses. While the 2P Bonus does not have an ICD (That we know of.) just like Dancing Steel you should be expecting a little over 1/4th the duration of Dancing Steel as Enrage. (Before Clipping/Overwrites.)
    So many things wrong with this comparison. Dancing Steel only has that high uptime because you're using a dancing steel on both mainhand and offhand. Dancing steel on one hand has roughly 40% uptime, as you'd expect from 2realppm and 12 second proc duration (slightly higher due to haste).

    Enrage lasts only 6 seconds, so with a 0.6 realppm you'd expect roughly 3.6 seconds of enrage per minute or 6% uptime, not including haste.

  9. #49
    Actually, you're correct as I forgot about excluding the weapons by itself and duration.

    Though my point still stands that you'll see a sizable uptime of Enrage from auto attacks before clipping.
    Even despite clipping you'll still gain the RB procs unless you're already capped.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by LordSpaztic View Post
    [...]
    1.6 rppm for arms are 9.6 secs of enrage each minute. 4.8 seconds given clipping, and 16 rage minute. +0.8% dps and 1 HS/Slam each 2 minutes doesn't beat +25% MS. Not by a faaaaaar shot.

    Also, 2ppm with 12 second duration, 40% uptime with a single weapon. Put it on two and there appears your 50-85%. With 2 procs on a minute.

    Don't go /facepalming people unless you are very sure of what you say. Even if you do, don't do it. It doesn't do you any favor.
    Last edited by Espada; 2013-01-12 at 08:14 PM.

  11. #51
    Don't forget that in T14 BiS, enrage buff and cs debuff provides roughly the same damage buff (cs being slightly better). With a good gear, Enraged could provide more damage than CS during T15.
    As a Fury warrior, an Enrage proc is more or less a free CS with more rage and a RB proc, RB being our best spell DPR-wise (and second best DPE-wise, behind Execute).

    I'm really not convinced by this bonus for Arms warrior, but even with a very low ppm I would give it a try as Fury warrior.

  12. #52
    They're going to buff Haste somehow for Warriors, so let's wait till we see some information on that.

    At the very least, we've been promised a doubling of Haste, which means doubled proc chance for the 2pc bonus, according to the RPPM Formula.

    I'd rather have a higher chance to proc for Arms to compensate the fact that an Enrage is only a 10% boost to damage unlike for Fury where it's a whole lot more because of Mastery and Raging Blow.

  13. #53
    Stood in the Fire Requiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaljurei View Post
    At the very least, we've been promised a doubling of Haste, which means doubled proc chance for the 2pc bonus, according to the RPPM Formula.
    nope, haste being double wont double the proc chance.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Therosk View Post
    I don't understand the Prot 2pc bonus, as it makes IV completely pointless, if it works as I understand it.

    The old description was:


    The new description is:


    The healing increase of IV is gone, but that's ok, since the "proc on kill" of IV is already twice as powerful as the regular one.

    Assuming you always hit your Revenge and Shield Slam buttons you will get approximately 16 of those in one minute. If you add Sword and Board you will reach something like 20 hits per minute. That's 2 procs per minute on average of the 2pc bonus. This is exactly the same as the CD on Impending Victory. IV and Victory Rush will both provide the same amount of healing (glyphed or not) and the same amount of procs per minute. And there's no indication that the 2pc does NOT reset the CD of the regular IV (in fact, it should reset the CD according to the description of IV). In other words, they're equally powerful.

    Sure, you will get a few more IVs out (but only 10% healing), since you will never get the 2 procs per minute reliably, but that should even out in the long run. So what's the point? Enraged Regen (or 2nd Wind) is a much better choice if you have the 2pc bonus.
    There never was a 'healing increase' on IV- the point of IV is that it heals for half the amount of a VR, unless you kill something, then it's a free VR. So the old and new description are trying to articulate the same thing- when you get a proc, you get a 'full' 20% health. The reason they changed the wording was both A: people not understanding it, and B: they buffed IV.

    Now, to put into perspective just how absolutely ridiculous the 2pc is, I'm gonna look at my last WoL for a half hMGV and then a few reg bosses.

    I did 984 shield slams+revenges in the raid, which comes out to about 98 procs. When I did a victory rush in the raid, it generally healed for about 130k-140k. (Shaman healer, but I also hit/exp stack. I don't need huge gobs of stamina, which would change once I got this 2pc, because it's insane.)

    For those of you keeping track at home, that comes out to 13.3mil healing. Healing on DEMAND, mind you, we just get this nice button that lights up for 20s and we can get a 130k heal whenever the fuck we want. And you had better believe I'm abusing last stand if I need to so it heals more.

    Now, second wind did 788k healing over the course of the entire raid. The ENTIRE RAID. I had 6.7mil healing for the entire raid, thanks to mostly sbarr. 13.3mil is a LOT.

    Now let's compare IV- we get a 15% heal every 30s, or 30% a minute. (IV got buffed)
    So that's about a 100k heal. HOWEVER...

    IV after a kill is presumably a 25-30% heal. (Can't test on the PTR now, but it would weird to have it not be.) Which means we would be getting a 30% heal every time the 2pc procced.

    Holy. Shit. 225k heal. Or 22.2million healing.

    IV useless? Hell, I'm debating not taking it because needing a 225k heal so often is probably OVERKILL!

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Requiel View Post
    nope, haste being double wont double the proc chance.
    Oh, crap yeah, I forgot how the formula worked. Well that sucks.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaljurei View Post
    Oh, crap yeah, I forgot how the formula worked. Well that sucks.
    It would double the proc chance if we actually ended up with double the attack speed, but I would assume it's a given that only haste rating's effect will be doubled and not flurry, bloodlust, and the 10% attack speed raid buff.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    Do you even know what a PPM system is?
    Yes I do. http://www.wowwiki.com/Procs_per_minute

    What's the problem? Ever heard of APM?

    PPM is basically a proc % based on un-hasted weapon attach speed and can proc multiple times under that "minute". PPM is an average and usually end up much higher by increasing attack speed and by landing more hits under "that minute window" hence why things like Crusader enchant end up being 2-3 "real" ppm instead of 1ppm.

    As for RealPPM, the only difference is that un-hasted weapon speed doesn't matter anymore but haste still does matter and landing more attack per minutes (APM) still does matter too but less.

    Do you really believe 0.6PPM means we will get one proc every ~1min30 every time? no.

    Edit: what LordSpaztic said.
    Last edited by Warrax; 2013-01-14 at 05:48 PM.
    Warrax, Worgen Fury Warrior

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  18. #58
    Well, dancing steel at 2 realppm and 12 second proc duration gives us just over 40% uptime, which means it's proccing 2 times a minute, so....

    The whole point of the realppm system is to normalize proc rates against apm.

    "Simple as that. Whether you’re an Affliction Warlock dealing very frequent DoT ticks and Malefic Grasp ticks, or a Holy Paladin casting purely Holy Lights, or a Combat Rogue quickly attacking and using specials, or an Enhancement Shaman attacking with slow melee attacks and spells, or a Shadow Priest channeling Mind Sear on fifty Onyxian Whelps, you’ll get 2*Haste Windsong procs or 10*Haste Elemental Force procs per enchant per minute."

    You should probably refer to the blue real ppm post rather than citing an out of date wiki page that's describing a model no longer used in wow any more.

  19. #59
    Stood in the Fire
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    Yeah I've read it, tbh I didn't notice until today that the 2PC was RPPM based instead of good old PPM system, thanks for not being a douche about it.
    Warrax, Worgen Fury Warrior

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  20. #60
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warrax View Post
    Yes I do. http://www.wowwiki.com/Procs_per_minute

    What's the problem? Ever heard of APM?

    PPM is basically a proc % based on un-hasted weapon attach speed and can proc multiple times under that "minute". PPM is an average and usually end up much higher by increasing attack speed and by landing more hits under "that minute window" hence why things like Crusader enchant end up being 2-3 "real" ppm instead of 1ppm.

    As for RealPPM, the only difference is that un-hasted weapon speed doesn't matter anymore but haste still does matter and landing more attack per minutes (APM) still does matter too but less.

    Do you really believe 0.6PPM means we will get one proc every ~1min30 every time? no.

    Edit: what LordSpaztic said.
    You're confusing the old PPM system with the new rPPM system. Although the rPPM system is influenced by haste, you still get the same average number of procs per minute regardless of being fury with more attacks or arms (Granted arms has a higher PPM rate because of the damage that it provides for arms, compared to fury with mastery/RB etc).

    So yes, .6 PPM will mean .6 Procs per minute on average, modified by haste.

    As for your APM statement, that's just laughable. Yes, actions per minute mattered under the old system, where it was a % chance to proc on any/certain types of hits. That system is no longer relevant.

    So I say again, ever heard of PPM?
    Last edited by Darkfriend; 2013-01-14 at 11:06 PM.

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