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  1. #1

    [Balance 5.2] 4-piece and corresponding talent

    Item - Druid T15 Balance 4P Bonus (New) Nature's Grace now also grants 1,000 critical strike and 1,000 mastery for its duration.

    With that being said, will taking soul of the forest be the best option to maximize up time on this beauty?
    So exciting.

  2. #2

  3. #3
    i think i recall someone saying that the new SotF only saves you 1 cast (from solar to lunar) and none the other way, compared to the current SotF. Still can't see it being that great.

  4. #4
    I probably would not have taken it before hearing about this bonus.

  5. #5
    Soul of the Forest is terrible for balance. I can't see us taking anything other than Incarnation unless they change something else.

    That said, I think DoC / HotW will outperform NV after it gets nerfed in 5.2. It may even affect our itemization so that int outscales secondary stats, but we'll see.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-10 at 09:42 AM ----------

    I take this back, they're also doubling SotF effect for balance - which I wasn't aware of. It might possibly be worth it, but... I still doubt it. Even without SotF you should have high uptime on NG, and it only gets higher with more haste/crit. Losing our current 4 piece bonus, you lose a slight amount of NG uptime, but it's still pretty high for single target, no movement.

  6. #6
    That would be very interesting to see with int. Dont forget HotW will scale better with a higher ilvl as you get more and more int. Thar 6% will just get larger and larger. Dont for get it will be better when raid buffed with flask and food and the mage buff. Would be nice since out sustain is really bad right now. Also the super tranquility would be nice to have at all times and it not be a dps losses to take that spec. It would make out utility that much better. I dont like the idea of moonkin dps relying so hard on CD, because if you raid screws you over with hero or something else like that you can have very weird attempts. Being CD reliant isnt always the best.
    Last edited by Lezul; 2013-01-10 at 09:47 AM.

  7. #7
    Zookeeper Sunfyre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daerio View Post
    Soul of the Forest is terrible for balance. I can't see us taking anything other than Incarnation unless they change something else.

    That said, I think DoC / HotW will outperform NV after it gets nerfed in 5.2. It may even affect our itemization so that int outscales secondary stats, but we'll see.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-10 at 09:42 AM ----------

    I take this back, they're also doubling SotF effect for balance - which I wasn't aware of. It might possibly be worth it, but... I still doubt it. Even without SotF you should have high uptime on NG, and it only gets higher with more haste/crit. Losing our current 4 piece bonus, you lose a slight amount of NG uptime, but it's still pretty high for single target, no movement.
    The doubling doesn't do much, it doesn't change how many casts from lunar to solar. It's a red herring.

    The problem is that 1000crit + 1000 mastery is not much different (or even better) than the reforging we're allowed by 4T14, plus the extra dot ticks (thus extra starsurges) that come from it.

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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunfyre View Post
    The doubling doesn't do much, it doesn't change how many casts from lunar to solar. It's a red herring.
    Just took this into consideration. WTF yo. >.>

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunfyre View Post
    The problem is that 1000crit + 1000 mastery is not much different (or even better) than the reforging we're allowed by 4T14, plus the extra dot ticks (thus extra starsurges) that come from it.
    We might hit the next haste break point anyways in the next tier. Will have that extra tick anyways.
    Last edited by Sainiunit; 2013-01-10 at 10:32 AM.

  9. #9
    So I havent done the math or anything but we only cast X amount of starsurges in a fight and 10% will make us crit Y amount of them. Add the double damage up and it is a Z% increase of dps. To me it sounds real low. The 4 piece lets say out tier pieces have mastery on it and a off leather piece has haste on it. It makes it that much more worse. So we only get these stats up while NG is up which is 75% of the fight maybe. So 750 crit and mastery for the whole fight. That is nothing if we do take our 4 piece over a piece of gear with 1k haste on it. If out tier pieces have bad itemization on it i could see it being very very bad or even a lose in dps (making tier not BiS)

    We only cast so many starsurges in a fight, also crit is a chance so not so sure about it. I feel like you would need some crazy starsurge procs for it to be good.

    Make the 4 piece give 1k int while NG is up, then people might like it.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-10 at 05:33 AM ----------

    Kind of a quick post I hope you get what I am talking about. Will be interesting to see some number on this and what people have to say about it. Will heroic t14 4piece double upgraded be better then normal mode T15 2 and 4 piece. I hope blizzard changes our set bonuses or buffs our classes spells or else I think moonkins should be used to being near the bottom of the charts.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-10 at 05:35 AM ----------

    Unless we scale super well with the amount of haste and crit we get from gear in the next tier I would like to see some changes.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunfyre View Post
    The problem is that 1000crit + 1000 mastery is not much different (or even better) than the reforging we're allowed by 4T14, plus the extra dot ticks (thus extra starsurges) that come from it.
    This is something I hadn't thought of. 4pT14 is essentially ~2200 haste as it is now. (8089 vs 10289 for breakpoint) I'm certainly hoping the tier 15 pieces are itemized better, rather than having mastery on every piece. As it stands, the set bonus is definitely worse.

    I'm still thinking hard about losing NV for HotW and int outscaling secondaries. I'm also a bit curious on how much they're buffing Force of Nature to possibly outscale Incarnation, since just losing NV already devalues Incarn a bit. I'm too lazy to download PTR again and copy character over to see how much they've buffed FoN though, I'll wait for other people to post the math on it. (and see what happens when it goes live)
    Last edited by Daerio; 2013-01-10 at 11:47 AM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Lezul View Post
    So 750 crit and mastery for the whole fight. That is nothing if we do take our 4 piece over a piece of gear with 1k haste on it. If out tier pieces have bad itemization on it i could see it being very very bad or even a lose in dps (making tier not BiS)
    How's 1k Haste better than 750+750 Crit and Mastery plus piece stats ? Tier pieces DO have their own stats as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sainiunit View Post
    We might hit the next haste break point anyways in the next tier. Will have that extra tick anyways.
    You can add infinite extensions (hence ticks) to your dots with theoretical crits. Why limit yourself?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunfyre View Post
    The problem is that 1000crit + 1000 mastery is not much different (or even better) than the reforging we're allowed by 4T14, plus the extra dot ticks (thus extra starsurges) that come from it.
    But combined with "Item - Druid T15 Balance 2P Bonus (New) Increases the critical strike chance of Starsurge by 10%." = ?????

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-10 at 12:25 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Daerio View Post
    That said, I think DoC / HotW will outperform NV after it gets nerfed in 5.2. It may even affect our itemization so that int outscales secondary stats, but we'll see.
    DoC is crap for multidot fights and NG uptime. Considering NG just got a bonus attached to it... Never really liked it anw :P
    Last edited by Juvencus; 2013-01-10 at 12:26 PM.

  12. #12
    I hoped the Tier 15 Bonus would be T11 like to "fix" some of our weaknesses, but well...quess we'll have to wait for other direct fixes.

    Buff Wrath already and give some Mushroom love (10% of your damage done additionally charges the Mushrooms pretty please?) <3

  13. #13
    Yeah, that 4p definitely kills DoC as a viable talent. I never liked it anyway, but it's a bit sad to have a lvl 90 talent that has no use in any scenario.
    As for the 1k values, they'll go up or down depending on how much of a dps gain they'll be, that's a very easy bonus to balance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lightfist View Post
    I don't really get how Bloodlust fits Shamans...

    "I need to calm the elements, and through our sacred bond we will - wait, is that a fucking boss? I'M SO FUCKING ANGRY! I'M GOING TO KILL HIM! NO, WAIT! I'M GOING TO RAPE HIM THEN KILL HIM! WITH SPOONS! RAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGEEEEEEEEEEE!"

  14. #14
    I'm pretty disappointed tbh.
    Retired

  15. #15
    I love how everyone else gets exciting procs, we just get stuff to make the current Balance playstyle bearable. The crit modifier on Starsurge should be there already as a passive, considering we rely far too much on RNG these days, and Starsurge crits play a huge part with DoT uptime after the nerfed the durations (the current 4 piece is just a band aid for that problem).

    The 4 piece isn't too bad as we refresh dots anyway, so the extra crit and mastery to boost the damage is OK with me.

  16. #16
    I guess I was saying if a lot of our tier had mastery and our off leather pieces all had crit and haste it could bring down the total value of our 4 piece. Would have to do the math and tell once gear is released and BiS list.

  17. #17
    Moderator Stommped's Avatar
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    On paper the 2 piece maths out to around a 2% increase and the 4 piece maths out to around a 4% increase. Both are pretty standard and we have had much, much worse set bonusese in the past.

    Now the 4% increase from the 4 piece is on a pure single target fight without insane movment considered, thus ~95% uptime on NG is realistic. Fights where multidotting/AoEing is preferred will obviously devalue this bonus slightly (or by a lot if it's a fight like WLM and you are just spam Hurricaning in the beginning).

  18. #18
    Someone on EJ also made the reflexion that tying even more buffs to NG is gonna make the difference between static and movement fights even bigger for moonkins, given that it makes you rely even more on the best NG uptime possible. It would be nice to see something to adress movement dps in the next few ptr builds honestly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lightfist View Post
    I don't really get how Bloodlust fits Shamans...

    "I need to calm the elements, and through our sacred bond we will - wait, is that a fucking boss? I'M SO FUCKING ANGRY! I'M GOING TO KILL HIM! NO, WAIT! I'M GOING TO RAPE HIM THEN KILL HIM! WITH SPOONS! RAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGEEEEEEEEEEE!"

  19. #19
    GC did mention that he thinks casters currently have to much movement DPS.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunfyre View Post
    The doubling doesn't do much, it doesn't change how many casts from lunar to solar. It's a red herring.

    The problem is that 1000crit + 1000 mastery is not much different (or even better) than the reforging we're allowed by 4T14, plus the extra dot ticks (thus extra starsurges) that come from it.
    Which is completely irrelevant, as it's not competing with the T14 4p, it's competing with the T14 2p. The one competing with 4T14 is 2T15.

    In the end, we're probably going to switch anyway due to higher iLvl. Question is when we will do so.

  20. #20

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