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  1. #41
    Uh... reducing uneclipsed casts = skipping part of noneclipse. I'm not quite sure what you want there.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunfyre View Post
    Because of (potentially) one less wrath cast? I don't see it, nor does WrathCalcs.
    So with the buffed SoTF we only get one less wrath cast?
    are you counting the fact that you're not using SoTF right now or just using the current SoTF as a template for that extra wrath cast?

    What I'm asking is if the benefit from going from Incarnation to the 5.2 buffed SoTF only give one less wrath cast.

  3. #43
    He's definitely only talking about 5.2 buff compared to current SotF.

    SotF in 5.2 gives -1 pre-solar cast and -1-2 pre-Lunar casts. It will always be 1 if you cast 1 or 4 SS in Solar, and always be 2 for all other amounts.

  4. #44
    Zookeeper Sunfyre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    He's definitely only talking about 5.2 buff compared to current SotF.

    SotF in 5.2 gives -1 pre-solar cast and -1-2 pre-Lunar casts. It will always be 1 if you cast 1 or 4 SS in Solar, and always be 2 for all other amounts.
    And with instant starsurges, you have a chance to move the bar almost as quick. SotF doesn't change the amount of starfire casts from now to the buff, and only gives one reduced wrath cast. It's not as incredible as people seem to think.

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  5. #45
    give them a while on the ptr they will figure out the sotf didnt change anything lol

  6. #46
    Token QQ here. Good thing I have a warlock alt.

    Please only post constructive comments. Infracted.
    Last edited by Sunfyre; 2013-01-13 at 08:07 PM.

  7. #47
    To be honest there are many other problems they have to look at(instead of sotf).
    Retired

  8. #48
    Sunfyre, it's clear that you're against taking SotF.

    Now I'm merely defending it, I've been doing my own testing on the PTR and I honestly have no idea which is better for patchwerk. They're pretty damn close.

    But here are my two cents:
    By the time we get our 4pc from T15, our ilvl will be high enough where we could potentially be going for the 10k breakpoint while maintaining over 25% crit unbuffed. This is mostly dependant on how the secondary stats will be itemized on the gear in T15.
    SotF has to be seen as the dps granted by it over the course of 3minutes, seeing as how Incarnation is on a 3minute cooldown. I don't know about you guys, but if I have the 10k haste breakpoint, it only takes me about 11 to 12 seconds to leave eclipse (30sec if during our burst thanks to CA). Good. If you took SotF it will reduce the amount of casts it takes to get back into eclipse by 1 (2 if you're lucky going into Lunar, but we wont consider that for now). Alright. We'll assume that if you only need 2 casts (not even going to consider SS procs) to get back into eclipse, (we're assuming you still have NG due to the amount of haste you have, at least for one of the casts) it will take somewhere between 4 to 5 seconds.

    Math time:
    30sec burst window, SotF benefits us once when our burst ends.
    5seconds later we're back into eclipse, 12seconds later we leave eclipse. SotF has benefited us twice now over a period of 47 seconds.
    5seconds later we're back into eclipse, 12seconds later we leave eclipse. SotF has benefited us three times now over a period of 64 seconds.
    5seconds later we're back into eclipse, 12seconds later we leave eclipse. SotF has benefited us four times now over a period of 81 seconds.
    5seconds later we're back into eclipse, 12seconds later we leave eclipse. SotF has benefited us five times now over a period of 98 seconds.
    5seconds later we're back into eclipse, 12seconds later we leave eclipse. SotF has benefited us six times now over a period of 115 seconds.
    5seconds later we're back into eclipse, 12seconds later we leave eclipse. SotF has benefited us seven times now over a period of 132 seconds.
    5seconds later we're back into eclipse, 12seconds later we leave eclipse. SotF has benefited us eight times now over a period of 149 seconds.
    5seconds later we're back into eclipse, 12seconds later we leave eclipse. SotF has benefited us nine times now over a period of 166 seoncds.

    Assuming good or bad RNG with SS procs and DoT extenuations, SotF could potentially save us 8-10 hardcasts over the course of 3 minutes. This isn't including whether or not you save 1 or 2 hardcasts going INTO Lunar. You can debate whether or not that is worth this is worth the 25% dps loss Incarnation would provide us. From what I see, this would yeild us an extra Starfall every 6 minutes.

    If somebody were to take SotF, I would strongly reccomend that you also take HotW since you're dropping the damage on your burst. Note that the base Int off of HotW will scale better with every tier, as do the damage modifiers on Incarnation and Nature's Vigil.

    Since Nature's Vigil is being nerfed, and you would have to use it on cooldown to get the full benefit with Celestial Alignment (and thus wont be able to fully control it's usefullness on every other cast) HotW may very well become the new level 90 talent of choice.

    Again, I'm completely indecisive about which talents I will be taking next Tier. This should hopefully put things into perspective for everybody though.

  9. #49
    To be honest, the 2 and 4piece are very lackluster. Normally when blizzard designs 2 and 4 piece, it fixes or buffs something relatively useful.

    10% on starsurge is nice, it'd be better if it was dots. NG giving 1k crit and 1k mastery... Relatively useless. We'd have to focus on NG uptime, and it's gonna be relatively annoying. They need a change to be honest.

    Boomkins need a change overall. We need more movement dps. not necessarily being able to cast on the move, full time, but a spell similar to shamans Spiritwalkers grace.

    Another thing that many other classes do have that boomkins do not, is an execute. increased damage below a certain percent on a certain spell, or an actual execute like execute, and soul reaper. It's what I'd like to see.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Liax View Post
    Another thing that many other classes do have that boomkins do not, is an execute. increased damage below a certain percent on a certain spell, or an actual execute like execute, and soul reaper. It's what I'd like to see.
    That just means doing less damage above that percentage. I'm not sure if that's really something we need.

  11. #51
    Moderator Stommped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liax View Post
    NG giving 1k crit and 1k mastery... Relatively useless. We'd have to focus on NG uptime, and it's gonna be relatively annoying. They need a change to be honest.
    How is gaining 2k secondary stats "relatively useless"...? Granted a portion of the Mastery will always be wasted, but that's only a small setback. How is focusing on NG uptime going to be "relatively annoying"? I don't know if you know this but NG uptime is GOOD for your DPS, you should already be attempting to maximize it's uptime as much as you can.

    As I said a page ago, the 4pc will lose it's attractiveness one aoe heavy fights, but not even close to the point of worthless. On multi dotting fights NG uptime will be lower as we use more globals per eclipse for dotting, but part of that will be made up by the fact that we should get close to 100% of the benefit from the 1000 mastery.

  12. #52
    Maybe it's just me, but I think the 2pc is fine, and the 4pc should reflect the 2pc to some degree. "Machine Gunning" Starsurges will not happen due to +1000 Crit. (In fact it's not even noticeable.) Figure the Mastery is what, 2% damage in Eclipse? 66% NG uptime in single target? ~1.3% effective increase. Crit can be ignored for now, due to the lack of stat distribution on gear. On an AOE heavy fight like Wind Lord, I had NG up for 33%. So it would be ~0.67% effective increase.

    It's not terrible or useless. It's just stapling stats to an automatic part of our rotation. It has no player interaction and is boring.

  13. #53
    Moderator Stommped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyous View Post
    Maybe it's just me, but I think the 2pc is fine, and the 4pc should reflect the 2pc to some degree. "Machine Gunning" Starsurges will not happen due to +1000 Crit. (In fact it's not even noticeable.) Figure the Mastery is what, 2% damage in Eclipse? 66% NG uptime in single target? ~1.3% effective increase. Crit can be ignored for now, due to the lack of stat distribution on gear. On an AOE heavy fight like Wind Lord, I had NG up for 33%. So it would be ~0.67% effective increase.

    It's not terrible or useless. It's just stapling stats to an automatic part of our rotation. It has no player interaction and is boring.
    66% for single target? I don't think so. Looking at Celebrity's Feng parse, he had 85.9% uptime on NG AND that's with him doing 9million worth of damage from Hurricane. So in a true single target scenario and in T15 haste levels, anything under 90% would be a shock.

    And as far as WLM goes, that is a rare exception rather than the rule. There maybe 1-2 fights like that in a tier at most, it's not the end of the world that the set bonus isn't as useful in those situations.

  14. #54
    The 4p might not be terribly interesting, but it's not exactly bad.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Stommped View Post
    66% for single target? I don't think so. Looking at Celebrity's Feng parse, he had 85.9% uptime on NG AND that's with him doing 9million worth of damage from Hurricane. So in a true single target scenario and in T15 haste levels, anything under 90% would be a shock.

    And as far as WLM goes, that is a rare exception rather than the rule. There maybe 1-2 fights like that in a tier at most, it's not the end of the world that the set bonus isn't as useful in those situations.
    Huh, I will need to stop refreshing DOTs poorly then. My mistake.

    With that said, it's not difficult to calculate the effective benefit for NG in AOE encounters (just more math no one wants to do). Since Mastery is a direct increase in damage, it's not a bad thing, but it's not that effective. -- 15sec of NG, spamming Hurricane for 60sec, it takes ~18sec to go from 100 Solar to 100 Lunar (only [email protected]), 78sec total, 15sec with NG (15/78 = 19% * 1.02% [Mastery bonus] = 0.38% effective increase in damage from T15 4pc). I would say it's useless for any sustained AOE. Obviously, the single-target benefit of the 4pc is much higher (85% uptime * 2% = 1.7% effective damage from T15 4pc). That's still mediocre at best. Looking at all the other DPS set bonuses, it seems like set bonuses are lackluster all around (few exceptions in there, though).

  16. #56
    Moderator Stommped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyous View Post
    Obviously, the single-target benefit of the 4pc is much higher (85% uptime * 2% = 1.7% effective damage from T15 4pc). That's still mediocre at best. Looking at all the other DPS set bonuses, it seems like set bonuses are lackluster all around (few exceptions in there, though).
    If I understand correctly you are calculating that 2% damage using only the mastery bonus. I don't understand why you are completely ignoring 1000 crit in mathing out the DPS gain? Could you explain why the 1000 crit is not an increase in DPS? Wrathcalcs shows the 4pc to be 4% effective damage increase with 100% uptime, obviously scale that down a bit and it's realistically more like ~3.5.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Stommped View Post
    If I understand correctly you are calculating that 2% damage using only the mastery bonus. I don't understand why you are completely ignoring 1000 crit in mathing out the DPS gain? Could you explain why the 1000 crit is not an increase in DPS? Wrathcalcs shows the 4pc to be 4% effective damage increase with 100% uptime, obviously scale that down a bit and it's realistically more like ~3.5.
    (If you catch anything that's wrong, feel free to call me out on it. I'd hate to use incorrect math in future discussions)

    I haven't seen the tier pieces yet. Our tier may be stocked full of Haste, Mastery, and Spirit, and maybe 1 non-reforge Crit. With that said, the theoretical gain from Crit would be the distance between X and X+1.5% (X = current Crit; general number). Lets use 30% and 31.5%. So if we have an additional 1.5%, how many damaging events would it take to be "theoretically guaranteed" a crit? Hard to tell, but we can multiply the total number of Critical strikes by 1.015 (1.5%). We've already determined an effective uptime on Nature's Grace, but we may as well keep the next bit of math at 100% effective Crit on damaging events (overall) because DOTs snapshot your current stats, thus extending the effective uptime of Crit+NG. When compared to non-extended durations of Crit (non-DOTs) with extended durations of Crit (DOTs), it will balance out the totals, though damage would be slightly effected.

    Using a recent Blade Lord (HoF) parse: 769 damaging effects, 6:33 duration.

    Using my same Blade Lord parse, i have 239 crits (31% effectively, 769 total events). ([239 * 1.015] - 239 = ~3.5) Getting ~3.5 more crits would not have been noticeable. It matters when and where these Crits come into play. Likewise, we are never guaranteed additional Crits. It's just a theoretical outcome. I simply cannot math out how much of an increase 1000 Crit will be. I'll leave the iterations of the same dataset to the simulators. (If I were to staple a number to the Crit bonus, it would be, per 15 Crits: 10 DOTs, 2 Starfire+Starsurge+Wrath, 2 Starfall, 1 MF/SnF (DD) -- this should be a fairly decent estimate of what to expect)

    So, I might get 3-4 more Crits for the entire encounter. Whether those Crits come through Starsurge, Starfire, DOTs, or even during Incarnation, it's impossible to determine with a single piece of data.

    Matching my previous math with math in this post, compared to WrathCalcs, 1.7 + X = 3.5 (WrathCalcs showing 3.5-4% increase). I strongly doubt 1000 Crit will tally a 1.8% damage increase. However, I will say it will happen as well as not happen. Crit is Crit. I would consider the bonus Crit an increase regardless of any math I've posted. I simply do not agree 1000 Crit will be a major factor in our damage output, all things considered. After all, it might just be a 1.5% crit increase, but I view it this way:
    Out of 1000 damaging events:
    ~ 300 Crit (no 4pc)
    ~ 304.5 Crit (w/ 4pc)

    Again. This is theoretical. This is not reflecting the actual increase for Crit. RNG is RNG.
    Last edited by Cyous; 2013-01-16 at 06:03 PM.

  18. #58
    For ignoring the additional ticks, your math is way to overcomplicated.

    Going from 30% to 31.5% crit increases your damage by 1-131.5%/130% ~ 1.2% (the meta bonus is to small to noticeably affect this)

    Keep in mind that we're working on theories here, so everything will get averaged. We're not interested in specific cases right now.
    Last edited by huth; 2013-01-16 at 11:01 AM. Reason: Woo, 5000th post!

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    For ignoring the additional ticks, your math is way to overcomplicated.

    Going from 30% to 31.5% crit increases your damage by 1-131.5%/130% ~ 1.2% (the meta bonus is to small to noticeably affect this)

    Keep in mind that we're working on theories here, so everything will get averaged. We're not interested in specific cases right now.
    What is being ignored? I don't understand. All of this assumes a 100% NG uptime (which won't happen). Going from 30% to 31.5% just increases the likelihood of getting a Crit by 1.5%. So if you look at the total number of damaging effects, just any parse, Multiple the number of Critical events by 1.015 (1.5%) and subtract the original Critical events amount from the product. ([239 * 1.015] - 239 = ~3.5). My previous post needs revising because I'm using the correct numbers in the wrong locations.

    Since different encounters are paced differently, we might have more or less Crits from fight to fight. Regardless of the encounter, it's not going to feel like an increase in Critical strikes, mostly because 1.5% additional Crit is still going to feel like "Huh, I must have gotten a bit luckier that time." In fact, it's possible to get less Critical Strikes but more DPSe. It simply depends on which spells Crit and when they Crit. So I don't believe it yield noticeable results.

  20. #60
    Except going from 30% to 31.5% increases the likelihood of getting a crit by 5%.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lightfist View Post
    I don't really get how Bloodlust fits Shamans...

    "I need to calm the elements, and through our sacred bond we will - wait, is that a fucking boss? I'M SO FUCKING ANGRY! I'M GOING TO KILL HIM! NO, WAIT! I'M GOING TO RAPE HIM THEN KILL HIM! WITH SPOONS! RAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGEEEEEEEEEEE!"

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