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  1. #21
    Old gods it is.

    Excuse me, are you saying something? Nah, you can't tell me nothing

  2. #22
    Fluffy Kitten Baiyn's Avatar
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    When I think of being forced to choose a side between the Titans and the Old Gods, I am inclined to remember the words of Worf, when discussing the Klingon gods:
    "Our gods are dead. Ancient Klingon warriors slew them a millenia ago. They were…more trouble than they were worth."

    I wouldn't say that Blizzard are making a political statement with their creation of these god-like rivalling factions. It's a common thread in fantasy to explore the nature of deities in original universes. I'd say, more than dictatorship and anarchy, the Titans and Old Gods respectively represent order and destructive nihilism and those are the core things they strive for as beings as well.

    The Titans are a race that has evolved far beyond the potential of mortal races in Azeroth (and, for the most part, humanity in our universe, as well) and looking up to the stars with their curious and coldly calculating eyes, it seems it is almost maddening to them to see a universe which seemingly has no fixed order or design. No predictability. And that's something they feel compelled to attempt to amend. I get the impression that they are a race that predominantly values intellectual response over the emotional (they may not even have the capacity for emotion) and as such they took it upon themselves to shape the universe into an ordered system, guiding life to evolve in symbiotic eco-systems, and then leave each planet to its own devices once the seeds of life and order have been sown.
    They are the apathetic and cold deistic creators. They spark life and care little for what happens to it, unless, of course, chaotic elements like Old God corruption ruins the order they had intended for it. Then, without emotion, they will gladly destroy it and begin again.

    The Old Gods on the other hand thrive on disorder, chaos and suffering. They seem to be satiated by it, like plants consume the sun's light for vitality, the Old Gods gain sustenance from the chaos and suffering they inflict on the denizens of worlds they infest.
    They are chaotic in their violent corruptive nature, yes. But, not anarchistic. They need to dominate the mortal races, be at the top of the food chain. They want the world to turn into a pile of shit, but they want to be the kings of that poop hill.
    They are dystheistic beings.

    It's a war between one side possessing a compulsive need to maintain order and caring little for what happens to the mortals that make up the systems of that order and another side that needs to corrupt and inflict suffering upon the mortal races in order to feed a primal hunger.

    Neither party really cares about the mortal races of Azeroth (in a very Lovecraftian way) and, as such, I say that they should take a leaf out of the Klingon book. xD
    Last edited by Baiyn; 2013-01-10 at 02:35 PM. Reason: Nihilism is a better description of Old God motivation than chaos-lust.

  3. #23
    Warchief Kivimetsan's Avatar
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    You have somewhat of a limited idea of what Anarchy REALLY is.
    Anarchy is just a system void of governance.

    Old Gods are just evil, they don't want a political spectrum, they just want death and destruction. Also the old gods are dictators more than anarchists considering there minions are literally fascists.

    Anarchy just means no governance and freedom from coercion.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Kivimetsan View Post
    You have somewhat of a limited idea of what Anarchy REALLY is.
    Anarchy is just a system void of governance.

    Old Gods are just evil, they don't want a political spectrum, they just want death and destruction. Also the old gods are dictators more than anarchists considering there minions are literally fascists.

    Anarchy just means no governance and freedom from coercion.
    the old gods do not govern. they leave people to do whatever they want, as long as they are in disorder. the qiraji decided to have their twin emperors. the mantid chose their empress. the old gods are their religion, not their government. they decided to make their empires on their own accord, and the old gods were chill with that.

    titans do govern. they want people to be exactly as their blueprints say. they aren't gods, they are shapers, makers, watchers, keepers, judges.
    Warlorcs of Draenorc made me quit. You can't have my stuff.

  5. #25
    Epic! RaoBurning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baiyn View Post
    When I think of being forced to choose a side between the Titans and the Old Gods, I am inclined to remember the words of Worf, when discussing the Klingon gods:
    "Our gods are dead. Ancient Klingon warriors slew them a millenia ago. They were…more trouble than they were worth."

    [...]

    Neither party really cares about the mortal races of Azeroth (in a very Lovecraftian way) and, as such, I say that they should take a leaf out of the Klingon book. xD
    Call Kratos, port him to Azeroth, get him hammered, and watch the shit go down.

    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    the old gods do not govern. they leave people to do whatever they want, as long as they are in disorder. the qiraji decided to have their twin emperors. the mantid chose their empress. the old gods are their religion, not their government. they decided to make their empires on their own accord, and the old gods were chill with that.

    titans do govern. they want people to be exactly as their blueprints say. they aren't gods, they are shapers, makers, watchers, keepers, judges.
    And, should the occasion arise, executioners.
    Last edited by RaoBurning; 2013-01-10 at 02:27 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cattaclysmic View Post
    Hey Elsa, do you wanna build a strawmaaaan?

  6. #26
    Burning Legion, not Old Gods, is what represents chaos that is opposed to the Titans' order.

    Old Gods are opposed to both, as stated in Blackhorn quest back in Hyjal.

    Also the old gods are dictators more than anarchists considering there minions are literally fascists.
    Their minions, but seemingly not the Old Gods themselves. To OG, all organized cults and armies are just tools of the trade.

  7. #27
    Bloodsail Admiral KunkkaTheAdmiral's Avatar
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    Of course you are right if you say the non progenitor Titan races have to be erased as well is not fair but actually I dont see why the Titans should care.

    They probably created thousands of races and worlds throughout the time, if something does not work right, they start anew with the help of beings like Algalon.

    That does not make them Dictators, for they do not try to dictate, they try to create. I would say they are douche deities who dont give a damn if a world gets "erased" so they can start the sandbox game again.

    The old gods on the other hand are even more douche deities who don't even want to create, they get a boner by reducing worlds into ash and chaos and collect minions. And its obvious they do this for one purpose, for own fun. It is mentioned that the old gods could crush sargeras and consume his entrie burning legion without big trouble.

    They are just killing time until the bonds that force them to stay on Azeroth is broken and they can get rid of us. I think they sound more like the Dictator's, they just want to take everything and control it.
    "Why do we fight? To protect home and family, to preserve balance and bring harmony. For my kind the true question is, what is worth fighting for?"

  8. #28
    I get the feeling people are starting to doubt the titans, can I just ask. For all the creations they've made, should they not still have their way with them. For all intents and purposes all titan constructs be they cursed with flesh or not, they're still THEIRS.

    Imagine if you were playing in a sandbox and all your sand sculptures/castles started to act on their own volition, or even attack you. That's not good.

    We are just tools in the titans war for oder, it isn't really anything to complain about.
    Last edited by Sylf; 2013-01-10 at 02:31 PM.

  9. #29
    Fluffy Kitten Baiyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hksin11186 View Post
    Call Kratos, port him to Azeroth, get him hammered, and watch the shit go down.

    And, should the occasion arise, executioners.
    Sounds good. xD

    Quote Originally Posted by Rasula Elfbiter View Post
    Burning Legion, not Old Gods, is what represents chaos that is opposed to the Titans' order.

    Old Gods are opposed to both, as stated in Blackhorn quest back in Hyjal.
    Good point, actually. Nihilism might be a better choice of word to describe a core aspect of the Old Gods base motivations. I'ma change the wording in my innitial post a bit.
    I'd say that their kind of nihilism, an actively destructive and malevolent kind, is chaotic in nature. But, true, chaos is not their prime goal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sylf View Post
    I get the feeling people are starting to doubt the titans, can I just ask. For all the creations they've made, should they not still have their way with them. For all intents and purposes all titan constructs be they cursed with flesh or not, they're still THEIRS. I know for a fact I would get mad if I build a car and it didn't follow my instructions. We are just tools in the titans war for oder, it isn't really anything to complain about.
    But, that's like saying, just because your parents gave birth to you, they have the right to control every aspect of your life up to age 18 and beyond. No thanks. A creation never asks to be created and therefore never has to feel indebted to its creator.
    Last edited by Baiyn; 2013-01-10 at 02:32 PM.

  10. #30
    If the Old Gods are dictators then they are doing a crappy job of it. Every humanoid species on your planet pretty much goes about making its own goverment, your creations get corrupted with flesh and have free will, you have species from different ecosystems traveling to other ecosystems (planets), one species blew up its planet, The guy they set out to destroy the opposition became the leader of the opposition, your dragon Aspects you created to be the Old God Jailors end up going insane and try to wipe out your creation, your pangean (one continent) planet pops a well of eternity and splits into 4 different continents, the native species you created have magically evolved into seperate species and you have massive world wide wars errupting on your planet of 'order'.

    Does not sound like a dictator to me. A Dictator sticks around and says, "You will live this way or you will disapear in the night. I will take what ever I want from you when ever I want and you won't ever take anything from me."

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Baiyn View Post
    But, that's like saying, just because your parents gave birth to you, they have the right to control every aspect of your life up to age 18 and beyond. No thanks. A creation never asks to be created and therefore never has to feel indebted to its creator.
    There's quite a difference tho, the titans created the races as tools, not as their children. Just because somone else makes your screwdriver behave differently doesn't mean it's not your screwdriver.

  12. #32
    love if there's a Shyamalan style twist where the burning legion have been brought together to stop the evil titans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sylf View Post
    There's quite a difference tho, the titans created the races as tools, not as their children. Just because somone else makes your screwdriver behave differently doesn't mean it's not your screwdriver.
    This brings up the old question of wether they still see all of the races as people, and not just as screwdrivers.
    Last edited by rogueMatthias; 2013-01-10 at 02:49 PM.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by rogueMatthias View Post
    love if there's a Shyamalan style twist where the burning legion have been brought together to stop the evil titans.



    This brings up the old question of wether they still see all of the races as people, and not just as screwdrivers.
    Yes that's totally possible, especially since they've already looked the other way once already (Algalon). I'm just trying to enforce the point that it's more or less in their right to do as they please with their own creations.


    I'd be quite thrilled if it would turn out that the Burning legion is the lesser of 3 evils :P Would be quite a turn especially if we were to get their help.
    Last edited by Sylf; 2013-01-10 at 02:55 PM.

  14. #34
    Fluffy Kitten Baiyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylf View Post
    There's quite a difference tho, the titans created the races as tools, not as their children. Just because somone else makes your screwdriver behave differently doesn't mean it's not your screwdriver.
    But, all children really are are apparatuses for carrying on a species though. I don't think there's any real moral ambiguity when we're talking about a creator frivolously destroying high-sentience creations, whether they're pawns or pets. It's shamefully callous and cold.
    Plus, what about all the denizens of those planets that the titans aren't responsible for? As for as we know, on Azeroth alone, that's, all elves and trolls, tauren, goblins, orcs and draenei from off-world and then all the other non-faction races like centaur, Cenarion children etc.
    The titans tinkered with Azeroth, sure, and they are responsible for the progenitors of the races of humans, dwarves and gnomes, as well as other various flora and fauna, but Azeroth is not "their" planet and they should not feel so conceited that they are comfortable to condemn it to destruction and reconstruction without even having any first-hand experience of what exactly Old God corruption looks like at this point.

    Azeroth is better off without them, at least, after we can be sure Sargeras and his goons have been dealt with.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Baiyn View Post
    But, all children really are are apparatuses for carrying on a species though. I don't think there's any real moral ambiguity when we're talking about a creator frivolously destroying high-sentience creations, whether they're pawns or pets. It's shamefully callous and cold.
    Plus, what about all the denizens of those planets that the titans aren't responsible for? As for as we know, on Azeroth alone, that's, all elves and trolls, tauren, goblins, orcs and draenei from off-world and then all the other non-faction races like centaur, Cenarion children etc.
    The titans tinkered with Azeroth, sure, and they are responsible for the progenitors of the races of humans, dwarves and gnomes, as well as other various flora and fauna, but Azeroth is not "their" planet and they should not feel so conceited that they are comfortable to condemn it to destruction and reconstruction without even having any first-hand experience of what exactly Old God corruption looks like at this point.

    Azeroth is better off without them, at least, after we can be sure Sargeras and his goons have been dealt with.
    Yes I totally agree with that, It would be callous. But It seems like that's something that could happen. I'm just trying to give them a reason for going aginst azeroth, as you've already demonstrated there's loads of reasons they shouldn't. It all depends how the titan lore is going to develop, they could become our saviours or yet another enemy.

    I believe the titans think to highly of themselves and that they can easily recreate the planet, the other races would just be casualities for a greater order, and the titan constructs would be remade.

  16. #36
    There is no anaolgy that strong at work here. The Titans at the "God Level" are builders; The Old Gods/Burning Legion are Destroyers.

    Mortals are just locked in between. Some more than others. There is no side to join because despite your best efforts your still an amoeba on the scale to them. You can top the dps/heal charts all you want but you just can't build a planet from scratch.


    I did read most of the dialogue from that "Conversation with a Doomwalker" though. It does imply some falling out with the Titan's plans. But consider this, if you asked a Twilight Cult member or a Cult of the damned acolyte what they thought of the light they would probably say it sucked too.

    In any case I like the lore as it is. The Titans are simply BIGGER than you and are locked in a greater Heaven and Hell Conflict. Whether you are a casualty or a Hero is up to you. Survival is the game and the penalties for failure are ... severe.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Lastlivingsoul View Post
    There is no anaolgy that strong at work here. The Titans at the "God Level" are builders; The Old Gods/Burning Legion are Destroyers.

    Mortals are just locked in between. Some more than others. There is no side to join because despite your best efforts your still an amoeba on the scale to them. You can top the dps/heal charts all you want but you just can't build a planet from scratch.
    I think it's quite funny that after Deathwing, the aspects losing power, the elemental lords "gone" the time of mortals would be here. But now were moving closer to even bigger problems then just Azeroths, if we end up in the middle of the Titans big conflict it could become quite scary.

  18. #38
    I'd say Old Gods can't be fit well into chaos/order duality. Order builds and creates, chaos twists and corrupts, Old Gods only destroy - all their madness and corruption schemes are simply means to this end. Deathwing's suicide in End Time is a good illustration - they destroy their own tools of destruction once they are finished, just out of the need to destroy something.
    They were confirmed as a parasitic, devouring lifeform, although extremely mighty. Think of them as of Azeroth's cancer.

    To put it blunt, Titans are a government that'd kill you if stop working properly in their system.
    Burning Legion are an invading army that'd kill you in battle, or for fun, or because they want your possessions.
    Old Gods are a virus that'd kill you simply because it's the only purpose of its existence.
    Last edited by Rasula Elfbiter; 2013-01-10 at 03:16 PM.

  19. #39
    Bloodsail Admiral chemicader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hksin11186 View Post
    Call Kratos, port him to Azeroth, get him hammered, and watch the shit go down.



    And, should the occasion arise, executioners.
    And polices? Yes, I went there.

    On topic: As far as it goes I agree with the OP, though the terms are not exact, but it does seem like a Order versus Chaos setting, opposed to the generic Good vs Evil.
    In my honest opinion titans are described too powerful, yes we do have evidence that the Old Gods are capable of killing them, but we, as the mighty heroes of Azeroth have yet to face them in person, as an ally or as a foe.
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...time-with-lore 4th specs from a pure lore standpoint.
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...0#post17518830 Read / Add your ideas for new endgame formats/variables.

  20. #40
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    That's actually a good way of putting it. Titans vs Old Gods vs Burning Legion. Totalitarian vs Free Reign vs Dictatorship. The old gods are a little different from the burning legion because although they want people to serve, they don't bother you provided you don't intend to turn against them.

    Staying at any extreme is bad. Taking the good parts from each and staying in the middle is the best idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    We do know way too little about the titans motives and reasons for wanting their order.

    Sure you can label them as intolerant dictators, but what if their order is actually the best thing for all involved? Still bad Dictator?
    If. That's the key. IF their order is the best for everything and everyone involved. They enforce order. They enforce order because it is their desire. If order is not maintained, it is viewed as if the system has become corrupted and must be reformed from scratch. The dragon aspects themselves were corrupted to some extent. Neltharion and Malygos both went mad with power. Malygos was mad at the 'abuse of magic' that normal beings were partaking in. Neltharion went crazy from listening to the whispers of Bieber from within the earth.

    Essentially, there's conflict between the races. This is not order. This is not what the titans intended, and thus it would have been their will to reoriginate the planet. Thus, what they want isn't the best thing for everyone, but only for them. The conflict may be bad for us, but it's a nature that is within us that won't be corrected by wiping out the planet and reforming it.
    [...]

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