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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Yak View Post
    ...
    I see the Burning Legion as the third path - utter oblivion. Beyond order, because there are no conscious minds left to project a sense of order on to anything. This would be Sargeras' answer to the chaos he sees in the universe - the order of the titans is a lie (their mistake with the Doomguard might be only one of many), and the chaos of the Old Gods is abhorrent. The only way left is to unmake everything - the only true order, in Sargeras' eyes.
    The one thing people keep forgetting about the Burning Legion And Sargeras was that before he was corrupted he was an Enforcer fighting evil entities throughout the galaxy. It was on the planet of the Nathrezim, a planet of vampiric telepathic necrotic aliens that Sageras first started to turn away from the Titans. The lore says that he "defeated" them but was left with doubts, depression, despair (Sound familiar.) Mind control or corruption at least.

    My Theory, just as the Old Gods were the puppeteers to a power greater than there own (Deathwing), the Burning Legion is also still using Sargeras as a puppet ruler.

    Further more they are known for turning nation against nation, and I can't help but think after completing "Operation: Shieldwall" and "The Dominance Offensive" that the Sunreavers were set up and that both sides KNEW Dalaran "City of Peace" would take a side.

    Aethas wasn't in on this plan and clearly states in a Sha induced Rage that Garrosh will bring the horde down (Why would he then risk losing his home in Dalaran to help him.) Fanlyr Silverthorn who gets you into the city does a shit job of covering your tracks as horde. Jaina seems "different" as well. It all points to one thing.

    Naz'riem Agents manipulating both Alliance and Horde into War with one another.

    The Question is WHO is the Psyl.. I mean Dreadlord agent?

    Speculation based on: http://www.wowwiki.com/Sargeras
    Last edited by Lastlivingsoul; 2013-01-10 at 10:47 PM.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xynas View Post
    I cant seem to find anything that says the Titans created the Vrykul, Mogu or Doomguards. Where did you find mention of it? It was merely mentioned that the Mogu salvaged Titan technology.
    The fact that they created the Vrykul is old info, it's from Wotlk. The Mogu stuff is datamined form 5.2 and the Doomguards bit is from the warlock green-fire questline.
    *broken link*
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  3. #63
    Fluffy Kitten Baiyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylf View Post
    Yes it's a very good point, but we doesn't really have that much knowledge about the actual titans yet, they might not really know what really is transpiring on Azeroth yet. Considering the last connection they had with the planet was Algalons assesment back before we even killed Lich King.

    What I want to know is what bigger threat they're out there in the universe fighting, it's supposely something worse then both the burning legion and the old god themselves. It's probably something that were not going to find out for a few yers atleast though :/
    Hmm. I don't think there is really much of a threat out there beyond the Old Gods, the Legion and the mad Titan that leads them (and maybe the threat of all the other Titans). Sargeras will be a very, very big problem whenever we finally have to deal with him. Such a big problem that it might not be feasible for the Azerothian encounter with him to occur in the medium of WoW. It might have to wait for WCIV because of how much bullshit deus ex machinae and faction cooperation we're gonna need in order to stand a chance against him. Plus, he's been hinted at having such a gargantuan size that having a 25-man (max) raid fighting him could just look laughable.

    There is, of course, always the possibility that the Titans and other older races were themselves made by older, more powerful figures, but, like with the Titans and their terra-forming, whatever created the Azeroth universe, I don't think it gives a crap about the denizens of that universe. Or, if it does (possessing a Light or Shadow alignment or something (though, I think it's just raw, volatile and non-sentient arcane power myself)), it doesn't have the capability to change it all at once, like the Naaru.
    Last edited by Baiyn; 2013-01-10 at 11:03 PM. Reason: missed an "s" QQ

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Garian View Post
    The old gods aren't deliberately spreading chaos for the sake of it. They are self-serving and will do whatever it takes to escape. You also have to remember that they are far more intelligent than we will ever be, meaning their true motivations may never be revealed.

    They might seek to unmake the entire universe for all we know.
    I'm basing my view of the Old Gods on their behavior when they were in charge. They ruled Azeroth for who knows how long, and never attempted to leave it lifeless and empty. It was full of life, just life they controlled, life they used to fight endless wars with. The faceless ones that serve them would fight one another - whether it was because the Old Gods hated each other and were truly trying to harm one another, or if was just a game to them, we can't know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garian View Post
    It's not inconsistent writing. It's lore. It's Blizzard's game which means they can do whatever they want with it.
    It's inconsistent with what was established before. It doesn't become consistent just because it's them that's doing it. If seeking oblivion is the new status quo of the Old Gods then fine, but that makes it inconsistent with earlier and even recent portrayals of how they operate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lastlivingsoul View Post
    The one thing people keep forgetting about the Burning Legion And Sargeras was that before he was corrupted he was an Enforcer fighting evil entities throughout the galaxy. It was on the planet of the Nathrezim, a planet of vampiric telepathic necrotic aliens that Sageras first started to turn away from the Titans. The lore says that he "defeated" them but was left with doubts, depression, despair (Sound familiar.) Mind control or corruption at least.
    That hasn't been confirmed as the first instance of Sargeras' doubt, but it has always been one element of it, yes. In fact, with the recent revelation that that ered'ruin, the Doomguard of the Burning Legion, were created by the titans it got me thinking - how many of the demon races locked up by Sargeras have their origins in titan creation? How many of Sargeras' missions in fighting evil in the universe was really him cleaning up the titans' messes.

    His disillusion with the titans versus the abhorrent chaos of the Old Gods is, what I believe, drove him to create the Burning Legion, a force that will destroy everything, bringing the order of oblivion to the universe.

  5. #65
    I am Murloc! Sky High's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xynas View Post
    I cant seem to find anything that says the Titans created the Vrykul, Mogu or Doomguards. Where did you find mention of it? It was merely mentioned that the Mogu salvaged Titan technology.
    the Vrykul and dwarves were constructs built to aid the titans in building and maintaining the prisons the old gods are kept in. or at least that is the case in northrend and yoggy. the mogu as far as iv seen are not connected to the Titans aside from them using their technology. and the doomguards idk.

    OT the titans do bring order but they come off to me as not as dictators but as experimenters to try and make a perfect world. now of course they want things to go as they want it so i can see where they can come off as such, and the whole: were gonna blow up this planet cuz it didn't go the way we want it enforces that point. but to your last point we aren't actively trying to kill or or stop the titans whenever they pop up, its only the old gods that are treated as a grave threat. but who's to say if the titans ever DO come back that they wont try and kill us all. but as you say it could be a lesson bilzz is bringing across. except when you remember the burning legion is pretty much all for a dictatorship as well.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Sky High Shark View Post
    the Vrykul and dwarves were constructs built to aid the titans in building and maintaining the prisons the old gods are kept in. or at least that is the case in northrend and yoggy. the mogu as far as iv seen are not connected to the Titans aside from them using their technology. and the doomguards idk.
    again, the mogu and doomguard creation by the titans is datamined stuff from patch 5.2.
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  7. #67
    Legendary! Spl4sh3r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbeef View Post
    old gods or titans? the obvious solution is to get in the middle and choose burning legion :P
    You mean to say follow Sargeras in his quest for Power.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Spl4sh3r View Post
    You mean to say follow Sargeras in his quest for Power.
    sargeras' quest is not for power, but for unmaking the artificial order of the universe and returning it to it's original, naturally chaotic state.
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  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Yak View Post
    I'm basing my view of the Old Gods on their behavior when they were in charge. They ruled Azeroth for who knows how long, and never attempted to leave it lifeless and empty. It was full of life, just life they controlled, life they used to fight endless wars with. The faceless ones that serve them would fight one another - whether it was because the Old Gods hated each other and were truly trying to harm one another, or if was just a game to them, we can't know.



    It's inconsistent with what was established before. It doesn't become consistent just because it's them that's doing it. If seeking oblivion is the new status quo of the Old Gods then fine, but that makes it inconsistent with earlier and even recent portrayals of how they operate.
    It's not inconsistent though; it's their goal. Chaos is merely a means to an end.

    The truth of the matter is we don't know enough about their past to know what their true motivations are. Sure they fought one each and unleashed hell etc, but you could say the same for any group of psychopaths competing for power. It's just in their nature.

    So while the old gods are clearly chaotic beings, that does not mean that their ultimate goal is chaos.

    Sargeras on the other hand, wants to bring chaos to wherever he finds order, because order is unnatural and creates evil.

    Sargeras, on some level, cares. He wants to stop evil from being created. Ironically he had to become a demon god in order to achieve his goal. The old gods are a whole other pandora's box. They are clearly ancient multidimensional beings who no one in their right mind would want to cross.
    Last edited by Garian; 2013-01-11 at 12:26 AM.

  10. #70
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    pretty much it seems

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  11. #71
    Old Gods aren't anarchist. Anarchy doesn't just simply mean chaos and destruction. Those are meant als means to dismantling the established order and removal of all heteronomy. The idealistic final condition of anarchy is an utopia of absolute freedom in absence of rulership or governance. It's free of any authority, but not devoid of social norms and rules.

    The Old Gods would be nihilistic, or anticosmic.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyHellfire View Post
    Old Gods aren't anarchist. Anarchy doesn't just simply mean chaos and destruction. Those are meant als means to dismantling the established order and removal of all heteronomy. The idealistic final condition of anarchy is an utopia of absolute freedom in absence of rulership or governance. It's free of any authority, but not devoid of social norms and rules.

    The Old Gods would be nihilistic, or anticosmic.
    I never said anarchy = chaos. what I meant is that old gods seemed to be content in letting people do whatever they want as long as the old gods are free from imprisonment and feeding parasitically on the world. they don't care about ruling anyone, or telling people how they should leave their lives. when they "ruled" the world, they made bug people, spider people, mantis people, mollusc people and started playing war with each other. the elements would just do whatever they wanted, as well. there were other people in the world too. trolls, tauren, et cetera. the old gods never tried to kill them for "not being old godish enough".
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  13. #73
    Over 9000! Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    I never said anarchy = chaos. what I meant is that old gods seemed to be content in letting people do whatever they want as long as the old gods are free from imprisonment and feeding parasitically on the world. they don't care about ruling anyone, or telling people how they should leave their lives. when they "ruled" the world, they made bug people, spider people, mantis people, mollusc people and started playing war with each other. the elements would just do whatever they wanted, as well. there were other people in the world too. trolls, tauren, et cetera. the old gods never tried to kill them for "not being old godish enough".
    The qiraj fought against the trolls extensively. Moreover, we dont really know if the old gods attempted to sway, impact, or casualy murder the trolls and tauren, as there are next to no pre-Titan records of Azeroth.

    Seeing as the old gods sure seem to love swaying, impacting, and casually murdering people, I'm going to assume they did and would.
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  14. #74
    Elemental Lord Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulwind View Post
    You seem to think chaos and anarchy are the same. Old Gods believe in power, THEIR power, they don't care about their minions, but they care about having many!
    Old Gods are chaos. Their minions are not immortal and untouchable, they play the chaos game as well, and that's why they eventually fall gloriously.
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    Metzenphrenia. As defined in the DSM: "To be so badly written, that it drives the character into insanity." It's symptoms are similar to schizophrenia but even crazier.
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  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Garian View Post
    It's not inconsistent though; it's their goal. Chaos is merely a means to an end.

    The truth of the matter is we don't know enough about their past to know what their true motivations are. Sure they fought one each and unleashed hell etc, but you could say the same for any group of psychopaths competing for power. It's just in their nature.

    So while the old gods are clearly chaotic beings, that does not mean that their ultimate goal is chaos.

    Sargeras on the other hand, wants to bring chaos to wherever he finds order, because order is unnatural and creates evil.

    Sargeras, on some level, cares. He wants to stop evil from being created. Ironically he had to become a demon god in order to achieve his goal. The old gods are a whole other pandora's box. They are clearly ancient multidimensional beings who no one in their right mind would want to cross.
    Oblivion being their goal is inconsistent with their past actions, because they ruled Azeroth for who knows how many thousands of years and never brought oblivion to it. A future where they triumphed is shown where the world is back to a state of never-ending horror under their rule - again, not oblivion.

    If 'oblivion' is all of the sudden their new reason for being, then fine. But to go 'ha hah, this is really what they wanted all along!' is an unjustified direction to take things and, in my opinion, bad and inconsistent writing.

    As for Sargeras, we've never heard his motivations in his own words, we've only ever inferred them from lore materials - the same ones that indicated the nature of the Old Gods that I've been describing, in fact. And the actions of Sargeras and the Burning Legion have, thus far, only ever resulted in empty, lifeless planets, not some kind of chaotic distopia worlds. Empty and unchanging is by definition non-chaotic.

    I agree that Sargeras cares on some level and wants to put an end to chaos. I consider him to be someone who feels that the universe would be better off dead.

  16. #76
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    I see the titans as lawful good or lawful evil and I see the legion more as pure chaos. I am not really sure we know the intentions of the old gods, they have not really shown much og there intentions. I think it is much more then trying to spread chaos/ What I think happened is that they ruled the world.universe before the titans(hence their names old gods) then the titans came killed them and there creations. Hence why the old gods are trying to mess up the tiitan's creations(the curse, deathwing, the emerald dream etc).

    One thing i would love to see is old god vs the legion, would be intresting to see if they team up or even to try to kill each other. Any word on how they interact with each other?
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  17. #77
    Just saying, Old Gods are/were enemies among themselves. The only reason why titans defeated them was because they could get them one by one.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Yak View Post

    That hasn't been confirmed as the first instance of Sargeras' doubt, but it has always been one element of it, yes. In fact, with the recent revelation that that ered'ruin, the Doomguard of the Burning Legion, were created by the titans it got me thinking - how many of the demon races locked up by Sargeras have their origins in titan creation? How many of Sargeras' missions in fighting evil in the universe was really him cleaning up the titans' messes.

    His disillusion with the titans versus the abhorrent chaos of the Old Gods is, what I believe, drove him to create the Burning Legion, a force that will destroy everything, bringing the order of oblivion to the universe.
    Sargeras may have been a protector but his betrayal was one of genocide not rebellion. Pretty much like Deathwing's fall from the Dragonflights.

    Ok try to remember Deathwing.... Netharion originally wanted to keep Azeroth safe. He had doubts about the Dragonflight's ability to protect Azeroth. That fear was in fact seeded in him by the in him by Old God's. He craves POWER to assert his control over this fear. He talks the Dragonflights into creating the Dragon Soul. After that point he forgets WHY he created it and is fully manipulated into the Ironclad Monster that just wants to Blow up the world.

    Thats how corruption of the mind works. Its a little fear, a little despair, a little doubt, a little need for control/power that creates a pawn. As Mighty as they might be that "Sha-like" will make turn on their own kind in a flash. Garrosh will be no different, if he can't shape up.

    Thats How Deathwing did it, Thats how the Naztherim does it, and its worked pretty good for them so far....
    Last edited by Lastlivingsoul; 2013-01-11 at 05:54 AM.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Lastlivingsoul View Post
    Thats How Deathwing did it, Thats how the Naztherim does it, and its worked pretty good for them so far....
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  20. #80
    Over 9000! Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nezia View Post
    Just saying, Old Gods are/were enemies among themselves. The only reason why titans defeated them was because they could get them one by one.
    The old gods didn't really "fight" each other to win anything, they sent their forces to fight each other just to watch them fight each other. Like people that crash hotwheels cars into one another for bugs and giggles.

    The titans cast down the old gods handedly. All Five old gods fell; among these, one was killed, and another was thought dead. The titans went 5-0 against the old gods and their armies and the elemental lords and THEIR armies.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
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