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  1. #1

    Titan = Dictatorship; Old God = Anarchy

    • Titans:
      • Enforce Order;
      • Rational thinking;
      • Created Brute Races such as Vrykul, Mogu and Doomguards in order to crush their opposition and maintain their order;
        • The Mogu still instinctively seek to do Titan Work, creating new races and enforcing order with iron-fisted laws;
      • Imprisioned most of the Primordial Elements of Azeroth;
      • When a world deviates from their blueprints, they "reoriginate" the planet, killing all living beings and restarting from scratch;
    • Old Gods:
      • Spread Chaos;
      • Insanity;
      • Created Races to go at war with each other, apparently for no reason;
      • Allowed the Primordial Elements of Azeroth to do whatever they wanted;
      • When a world deviates from their Chaos, they corrupt it back to how it was;

    Doesn't it feel like Blizzard is making a political analogy in those two forces? Like Titans represent Dictatorship, while Old Gods represent pure Anarchy? it's as if they wanted to tell us a story about how neither extreme is good, and the best for us is somewhere in between. Many Playable Races are Titan Creations altered by the Old Gods, after all.

  2. #2
    If You Go to Z'ha'dum, You Will Die

  3. #3
    You seem to think chaos and anarchy are the same. Old Gods believe in power, THEIR power, they don't care about their minions, but they care about having many!

    Titans do seem to be tyrants, and their order is the only one they accept (even Sargeras thinks this way).
    English is not my first language, feel free to correct any mistake I may make.

  4. #4
    Over 9000! Frozenbeef's Avatar
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    old gods or titans? the obvious solution is to get in the middle and choose burning legion :P

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Soulwind View Post
    You seem to think chaos and anarchy are the same. Old Gods believe in power, THEIR power, they don't care about their minions, but they care about having many!
    I don't think we've ever seen what old gods care about, besides disorder. what we do know is that they used to be at war with each other for apparently no reason, and they like to undo all the order.

    to me, they never seemed power hungry. you never see an old god trying to gain power. you do see minions of the old gods trying to gain their power. the old gods already have enough power. what they do want is to bring azeroth back to disorder and get free from their prisons. and to do that, they bribe titan creations with power to corrupt them.

  6. #6
    Scarab Lord Chonar's Avatar
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    Not sure if a pantheon can ever create a dictatorship, but I see where you're going with this.

    "Don't walk behind me; I may not lead. Don't walk in front of me; I may not follow. Just walk beside me and be my comrade." - Albert Camus

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Chonar View Post
    Not sure if a pantheon can ever create a dictatorship, but I see where you're going with this.
    if you consider the whole pantheon as one single political force, than it's possible

  8. #8
    Scarab Lord Granyala's Avatar
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    We do know way too little about the titans motives and reasons for wanting their order.

    Sure you can label them as intolerant dictators, but what if their order is actually the best thing for all involved? Still bad Dictator?

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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    • Titans:
      • Enforce Order;
      • Rational thinking;
      • Created Brute Races such as Vrykul, Mogu and Doomguards in order to crush their opposition and maintain their order;
        • The Mogu still instinctively seek to do Titan Work, creating new races and enforcing order with iron-fisted laws;
      • Imprisioned most of the Primordial Elements of Azeroth;
      • When a world deviates from their blueprints, they "reoriginate" the planet, killing all living beings and restarting from scratch;
    • Old Gods:
      • Spread Chaos;
      • Insanity;
      • Created Races to go at war with each other, apparently for no reason;
      • Allowed the Primordial Elements of Azeroth to do whatever they wanted;
      • When a world deviates from their Chaos, they corrupt it back to how it was;

    Doesn't it feel like Blizzard is making a political analogy in those two forces? Like Titans represent Dictatorship, while Old Gods represent pure Anarchy? it's as if they wanted to tell us a story about how neither extreme is good, and the best for us is somewhere in between. Many Playable Races are Titan Creations altered by the Old Gods, after all.
    I cant seem to find anything that says the Titans created the Vrykul, Mogu or Doomguards. Where did you find mention of it? It was merely mentioned that the Mogu salvaged Titan technology.

  10. #10
    Titans want to bring Order to the Universe, Order in it's highest form is always totalitarian.

    Burning Legion believes that this can never be achieved and therefore, eternal chaos is their goal for the universe because nothing else will last forever except chaos.

    Old Gods however are pretty nihilistic, they destroy chaos with chaos for the sake of chaos, it's obvious why Old Gods can drive everyone insane because that's just pure madness.
    Too often, we are mistaken for druidic types. perhaps that's true for some shaman, but do not let yourself be plagued by the ignorant belief that we are always peaceful.
    Nothing about what I do is harmonious. I command the elements to my will. There is nothing offered in return. I would have it no other way.


    Never assume an ogre's stupid, that's when they'll get you.

  11. #11
    Titans are not dictators. They are about order as the Old gods are about corruption. The Titans are creators, many comic books and sci fi stories have stories about a creator species that goes about creating life. Thats why Klingons, Vulcans and humans in general are physically simular, two arms, two legs, eyes, ears, noses, ect. Marvel has a species of giant mechanical guys that left a gene that would one day lead human to become mutants.

    A Dictator does not come to a planet, create order, create life and then leave that planet to its own devices for hundreds of thousands of years. A Dictator stays right there and enforces order; It dictates. Thus Dictator. The Titans are not Dictators. That does not mean they won't come back and smite us for not being according to plan but you don't call a scientist a dictator because they created the wrong micro-organism in a petri dish and they destroy the sample to start over again.

  12. #12
    Dreadlord KunkkaTheAdmiral's Avatar
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    I see what you want to imply, but you're wrong if you think the Titans created Vrykul, Mogu or something else.

    They build living stone, nothing more, nothing less. The stone is able to move and perform task, but nothing more, its programmed stone. The Vrykul, Mogu and other started to make a fuss and evolve to what they are now because the Old gods curse of living flesh made it neccessary for them.

    If you dont live, if you can't think, you don't need an empire or anything else. They started to be what they are after the curse of flesh made them into living beings with an mind of their own.

    The Titan did not create something to "crush" anyone, because in their own made world, everything is perfect, thats atleast what the Titan strife to achieve.
    "Why do we fight? To protect home and family, to preserve balance and bring harmony. For my kind the true question is, what is worth fighting for?"

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Xynas View Post
    I cant seem to find anything that says the Titans created the Vrykul, Mogu or Doomguards. Where did you find mention of it? It was merely mentioned that the Mogu salvaged Titan technology.
    vrykul are seed races, that's old lore from WotLK.

    mogu and doomguards are datamined info.

    the doomguard story comes from the warlock epic questline, where kanrethad will question a doomguard about the origins of his race, and he'll tell him about how they were created by the titans to be enforcers of their law, but sargeras "freed" them from that, turning them into demons.

    for the mogu, see this thread: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...2-Mogu-Origins

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-10 at 01:04 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by KunkkaTheAdmiral View Post
    I see what you want to imply, but you're wrong if you think the Titans created Vrykul, Mogu or something else.

    They build living stone, nothing more, nothing less. The stone is able to move and perform task, but nothing more, its programmed stone. The Vrykul, Mogu and other started to make a fuss and evolve to what they are now because the Old gods curse of living flesh made it neccessary for them.

    If you dont live, if you can't think, you don't need an empire or anything else. They started to be what they are after the curse of flesh made them into living beings with an mind of their own.

    The Titan did not create something to "crush" anyone, because in their own made world, everything is perfect, thats atleast what the Titan strife to achieve.
    titan creations can think. the earthen can think (and according to the deepholme questline, they can also feel happy, sad, worried, and they can make friends). shamanism always says that everything that is, is alive, so even inert rocks can are alive. you said it yourself, "living stone", so they do live.

    the titans do crush things, because they don't work on their own made world, but on pre-existing worlds. they came here, crushed the old gods and their disorderly system, build new stuff and left algalon here with orders to kill everybody and start again if things go differently than planned.
    Last edited by checking facts; 2013-01-10 at 01:06 PM.

  14. #14
    Scarab Lord Granyala's Avatar
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    They build living stone, nothing more, nothing less. The stone is able to move and perform task, but nothing more, its programmed stone. The Vrykul, Mogu and other started to make a fuss and evolve to what they are now because the Old gods curse of living flesh made it neccessary for them.
    This.

    Only higher constructs like Algalon or the watcher possess some more sophisticated forms of AI.

    Ifalna Sha'yoko on Twitter and Armory - Occasionally unfaithful to WoW with my Wizard- (ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━ ┻

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    This.

    Only higher constructs like Algalon or the watcher possess some more sophisticated forms of AI.
    see the earthen. they can think, they can feel, they can build their own cities. they are titan constructs made of rocks.

    (and I'm talking about the earthen 2.0, the ones that are totally immune to curse of flesh)

  16. #16
    Dreadlord KunkkaTheAdmiral's Avatar
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    To think is one thing, refuse to obey is another. They could not, the earthen, iron vrykul and other constructs created by the Titan did absolutely nothing that would indicate they refused their obedience to the Titans, but after the curse struck them they developed and the Mogu as an example refer to themself as monsters, who's parents are gods.

    The curse of the flesh freed them from being obedient to all eternity and that happened to every stone being that was hit by hit, it is even said that all constructs was hit by the curse, even if they are still stone objects.

    If you take a look at the warden Archavon in lake wintergrasp, he is obviously made of stone, but he developed an mind of his own.

    for the Day 1051213, Archavon wrote "Archavon wake up, notice face feel soft. Not important. Go back to sleep." This could hint that he was, more or less, affected by the Curse of Flesh.
    "Why do we fight? To protect home and family, to preserve balance and bring harmony. For my kind the true question is, what is worth fighting for?"

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by KunkkaTheAdmiral View Post
    To think is one thing, refuse to obey is another. They could not, the earthen, iron vrykul and other constructs created by the Titan did absolutely nothing that would indicate they refused their obedience to the Titans, but after the curse struck them they developed and the Mogu as an example refer to themself as monsters, who's parents are gods.

    The curse of the flesh freed them from being obedient to all eternity and that happened to every stone being that was hit by hit, it is even said that all constructs was hit by the curse, even if they are still stone objects.

    If you take a look at the warden Archavon in lake wintergrasp, he is obviously made of stone, but he developed an mind of his own.

    for the Day 1051213, Archavon wrote "Archavon wake up, notice face feel soft. Not important. Go back to sleep." This could hint that he was, more or less, affected by the Curse of Flesh.
    the mogu don't call themselves monsters. lorewalker cho does.

    also, blizz said all giants were affected by the curse, though some more than others. earth giants were the least affected, while storm giants were the most affected. that's why they look like people, not... storm.

  18. #18
    Dreadlord KunkkaTheAdmiral's Avatar
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    But eventually the Titans fell silent. And their creations were cursed with flesh. The mogu grew restless. Many generations later, when Thunder King united them, they seized upon their legacy! I truly believe now that the mogu thought they were doing the work of the Titans. They fought against the mantid and used the powers of the Vale to create new life. Ah, but such terrible works! Parents cannot always be assured of the legacy they will leave behind. How especially true this is, when the parents are Gods. And their children - monsters.

    This is datamined from Patch 5.2 spoken by Lei Shen the Thunder King.

    They do refer to themself as monsters, atleast their most dominant, almighty Thunder King does.

    But the important point is, the Titan's creations have one purpose. They are made because they should keep the creations of their master intact, what they do, even if they think, feel or build villages like in Deepholm. They are placed in this world to keep it safe and obey the Titans and I doubt something will change that fact.

    Edit: I assume this part of the datamined text is spoken by Cho, not Lei Shen, so my fault. Still we get a good look at the mogu after the curse of flesh.
    Last edited by KunkkaTheAdmiral; 2013-01-10 at 01:22 PM.
    "Why do we fight? To protect home and family, to preserve balance and bring harmony. For my kind the true question is, what is worth fighting for?"

  19. #19
    The Apollonian and Dionysian, perhaps?

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by KunkkaTheAdmiral View Post
    But the important point is, the Titan's creations have one purpose. They are made because they should keep the creations of their master intact, what they do, even if they think, feel or build villages like in Deepholm. They are placed in this world to keep it safe and obey the Titans and I doubt something will change that fact.
    yes, they are programmed to obey the titans at any cost. but what cost is this "any cost"?

    the titans didn't create trolls, or tauren (or any of the animalistic races). why do those have to die if the titans decide this planet deviated from their plans? why does everything has to follow exactly the vision of the titans? why can't the universe simply follow it's natural course?

    it's simple: it's because the titans don't want to. they want to put the whole universe under their order. they don't care about the will of the inhabitants of those planets. all they care about is to enforce their order everywhere.

    they aren't that numerous, so they can't stay here. instead, they make rock people to continue their work. to enforce their laws, to build their "uld" cities, to keep their world destruction weapons. they are universal dictators, and this world is like some sort of poor little house in the outskirts of the empire. it's not paying it's taxes (order taxes lol), but the government is just too far away to come get it. for now.

    I wouldn't be surprised if we were to fight titans in a far away expansion.

    maybe they think they are doing something good. maybe they think their supreme order with 0 free will is something good. maybe they think that will eliminate all conflict and unhappiness.

    well, I like free will, and I like to exist. if it depended on the titans, I'd have neither, because I deviated from their plans. (this last line spoken from my main's PoV, as an undead human warlock. 4 times deviated (rock vrykul -> flesh vrykul -> human -> undead -> warlock) lol)

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