Titan = Dictatorship; Old God = Anarchy

[Sylf]

Aye, I think, depending on how their story is written, Titan conceit and their unfeeling detachment could prove to be their undoing, either because we, the denizens of Azeroth will have to find some way to knock them from their pedestal, or the Legion or Old Gods will pull a fast one on them, outmanoeuvring them in their assumed superiority.

Any way it goes, as long as it's handled well, I think the fate of the Titans and what their influence will mean to the fate of the mortals of Azeroth will make for some of the most interesting lore in the series. As it stands though, I don't think their pattern of thinking is compatible with life on Azeroth is its current form. So they could be another enemy we need to worry about when we finally have the final fight with these overwhelming malevolent supernatural enemies of ours.

The only way I could see us taking the Legion, Old Gods and the Titans on would be if, when those forces began fighting each other, prominent casters among mortal races would be able to get us into individual fights between key belligerents (perhaps between two generals) and we temporarily aid one to defeat the other, then finish off the weakened victor. Not particularly honourable, but who cares about honour if the apocalypse can't be prevented! xD

Yes it's a very good point, but we doesn't really have that much knowledge about the actual titans yet, they might not really know what really is transpiring on Azeroth yet. Considering the last connection they had with the planet was Algalons assesment back before we even killed Lich King.

What I want to know is what bigger threat they're out there in the universe fighting, it's supposely something worse then both the burning legion and the old god themselves. It's probably something that were not going to find out for a few yers atleast though :/

[Sorrior]

Yes it's a very good point, but we doesn't really have that much knowledge about the actual titans yet, they might not really know what really is transpiring on Azeroth yet. Considering the last connection they had with the planet was Algalons assesment back before we even killed Lich King.

What I want to know is what bigger threat they're out there in the universe fighting, it's supposely something worse then both the burning legion and the old god themselves. It's probably something that were not going to find out for a few yers atleast though :/

Xel'naga?

But more seriously i DO think it would be interesting if it turned out that the warcraft and starcraft universes were the same and the titans ARE the Xel'Naga.

Magic could just be the Azerothian name for Psionics LOL.

[Sylf]

Xel'naga?

But more seriously i DO think it would be interesting if it turned out that the warcraft and starcraft universes were the same and the titans ARE the Xel'Naga.

Magic could just be the Azerothian name for Psionics LOL.

hehe, yeah, but that I don't even think Blizzard wants to listen to all the complaints that would come in from left and right if they started merging their universes.

Off topic: Can't wait for HotS btw!

[MrHappy]

thing is, if you did the Klaxxi quests you are basically told the Titans are not who we think they are...nor are the old gods. While your notion OP works in theory there is something BIG we do not know yet that could flip the table on your argument

[Soulwind]

thing is, if you did the Klaxxi quests you are basically told the Titans are not who we think they are...nor are the old gods. While your notion OP works in theory there is something BIG we do not know yet that could flip the table on your argument

Not really, they basically tell you that you exist because the Old Gods needed tools to be freed (the Curse of Flesh) and that the Titans shouldn't be your gods because of that.

The thing is, if the Old Gods come back, nobody is going to survive, not even their followers.
If the Titans discover how many races have been corrupted, they could destroy Azeroth, but they could also spare us, just like they did with the dwarves last time. The Aspects, their flesh guardians, can easily convince them that the mortals are better at defending Azeroth than any Titan machine.

We don't really know their plans, but from what we do know, the Titans aren't as evil as the Old Gods.

[Loaf Lord]

Guess I gotta add titans to the list of soon to be eradicated "superior" beings. Orcs are the true master race anyway. No race can withstand a flying serpent kick to the face from an orc.

[Justignoreme]

You can't assign political values to this. It's order vs. chaos, logic vs. raw emotion.

The Titan's aren't evil. I find it really funny that some people still try to twist this out of them. Order must be bad xD

Guess I gotta add titans to the list of soon to be eradicated "superior" beings. Orcs are the true master race anyway. No race can withstand a flying serpent kick to the face from an orc.

no

[Last Starfighter]

• Titans:
  
  • Enforce Order;
  • Rational thinking;
  • Created Brute Races such as Vrykul, Mogu and Doomguards in order to crush their opposition and maintain their order;
    • The Mogu still instinctively seek to do Titan Work, creating new races and enforcing order with iron-fisted laws;
  • Imprisioned most of the Primordial Elements of Azeroth;
  • When a world deviates from their blueprints, they "reoriginate" the planet, killing all living beings and restarting from scratch;
• Old Gods:
  
  • Spread Chaos;
  • Insanity;
  • Created Races to go at war with each other, apparently for no reason;
  • Allowed the Primordial Elements of Azeroth to do whatever they wanted;
  • When a world deviates from their Chaos, they corrupt it back to how it was;

Doesn't it feel like Blizzard is making a political analogy in those two forces? Like Titans represent Dictatorship, while Old Gods represent pure Anarchy? it's as if they wanted to tell us a story about how neither extreme is good, and the best for us is somewhere in between. Many Playable Races are Titan Creations altered by the Old Gods, after all.

Titans rarely came to planets and enforced anything. They were creators not dictators. Not by a long shot.

[DeadmanWalking]

thing is, if you did the Klaxxi quests you are basically told the Titans are not who we think they are...nor are the old gods. While your notion OP works in theory there is something BIG we do not know yet that could flip the table on your argument

Theres many ways to translate what the Klaxxi character told us. On one hand it could mean that the Old Gods are the only real gods (they did kill a titan and the titans killed an old god but it just split into 7 Sha, essentially an Old God doesn't really die but a Titan does.), or it could just be a guy from one religeon telling a guy from another faith that his god is the only true god and any others are just pretenders. Unless something else comes to light there really isn't any wieght in anything the Klaxxi says to you. He is just spouting doctrine.

I was re-reading one of the novels and in it a young Tyrande looks at a murel of a painting of several gods with the Moon Goddess the center of the picture and the only one recogniseable and the rest were undefined, blurry and shaded looking. Who were these other gods? Is this painting in game? Could they be the Old Gods and the Moon Goddess is the only good one and thus was not imprisoned in the planet by the Titans? I could translate this a hundred different ways.

[Verdugo]

but what if their order is actually the best thing for all involved?

Certainly not. Best thing for all involved? Let me tell you about a god called Nurgle. He loves all forms of life: mortals, immortals, plants, animals, insects, parasites, viruses, bacteria,...

Should I go on?

[Combatbutler]

Titans rarely came to planets and enforced anything. They were creators not dictators. Not by a long shot.

But if something strays from its designed path it is destroyed, which is why there are creations like Algalon out there. The Titans are scientists and the mortal races are lab rats at best.

[Deleted]

Well maybe it is for the greater good and the best for everyone but seriously... Verdugo you can't argue with Papa Nurgle, he's of course the best, but this infidels dont like to accept his gift

And I wouldn't pour too much truth and faith into the klaxxi, after all they are lunatic's who follow an old god, of course he's the best and no other god exists.

[Zanito44]

Not really, they basically tell you that you exist because the Old Gods needed tools to be freed (the Curse of Flesh) and that the Titans shouldn't be your gods because of that.

The thing is, if the Old Gods come back, nobody is going to survive, not even their followers.
If the Titans discover how many races have been corrupted, they could destroy Azeroth, but they could also spare us, just like they did with the dwarves last time. The Aspects, their flesh guardians, can easily convince them that the mortals are better at defending Azeroth than any Titan machine.

We don't really know their plans, but from what we do know, the Titans aren't as evil as the Old Gods.

The Titans extreme view on order makes them just as bad as the Old Gods extreme view on disorder,chaos, and freedom. Both are actually as bad as the other. The Titans went around ordering planets and species but who gave them that right that they should force their political view on various worlds and species. The Old Gods are just as bad seeing as chaos and madness just means the universe is a pile of bad shit piled on more bad shit just with freedom attached to it.

I'd say both the Titans and Old Gods deserve to die or be thrown into the same prison whilst they duke it out with one another while we all stay in the middle spectrum avoiding their issues.

[Deleted]

Tyrus Blackhorn in Mount Hyjal says:

"I served my master in exchange for power, <class>. But those you fight... they strive for oblivion. A strange motivation".


The old gods may be chaotic beings but their goal isn't to spread chaos for the sake of it. That's Sargeras's goal.


I have to give Blizzard some credit for this because Sargeras isn't your average villain. If you can't see why order can be such a bad thing then you wouldn't understand.

[Kaleredar]

The Titans extreme view on order makes them just as bad as the Old Gods extreme view on disorder,chaos, and freedom. Both are actually as bad as the other. The Titans went around ordering planets and species but who gave them that right that they should force their political view on various worlds and species. The Old Gods are just as bad seeing as chaos and madness just means the universe is a pile of bad shit piled on more bad shit just with freedom attached to it.

I'd say both the Titans and Old Gods deserve to die or be thrown into the same prison whilst they duke it out with one another while we all stay in the middle spectrum avoiding their issues.

Seeing as there's no appreciable "god" of world of warcraft, the might of the titans basically is what gives them right to spread order.

As for the Old gods, they don't strike me as perpetrating a... "everyone fends for themselves" lifestyle where everyone is left to their own devices like some libertarian's wet dream... The old gods RELISH in toying with mortal minds, enslaving them, and making forces fight simply because they can.

When the decision is split between mostly beneficent overlords, or chaotic eldricht creatures with armies of darkness who want to mind rape you, I'd go with the first.

[Golden Yak]

Tyrus Blackhorn in Mount Hyjal says:

"I served my master in exchange for power, <class>. But those you fight... they strive for oblivion. A strange motivation".

The old gods may be chaotic beings but their goal isn't to spread chaos for the sake of it. That's Sargeras's goal.

I disagree. I think that satyr quote is, unfortunately, an example of contused and inconsistent writing rather than a representation of the Old God's actual motivations.

The Burning Legion has always left nothing behind their crusade. The Velen short-story showed us a glimpse of a planet they'd been too - there was nothing left. No life. They've done the same to other worlds, and tried to do it to Azeroth. They may profess a desire for chaos and a shattering of order, but they always leave behind utter lifelessness.

Whereas the Old Gods once ruled Azeroth as a place of eternal chaos and warfare. Elementals constantly fighting, slave races like the faceless, the aqir, and whatever other creatures who might have existed, always battling one another. In the novels, we see a glimpse of a possible future where the Old Gods rule - the mountains are swarming with the tentacles of the Forgotten Ones, and the skies are filled with twilight dragons. It's a horrible nightmare, but it is filled with living beings.

I agree with the OP - the titans are a force for Order (not necessarily 'good') and the Old Gods strive for chaos - tearing down order, introducing corruption and disarray into all systems.

I see the Burning Legion as the third path - utter oblivion. Beyond order, because there are no conscious minds left to project a sense of order on to anything. This would be Sargeras' answer to the chaos he sees in the universe - the order of the titans is a lie (their mistake with the Doomguard might be only one of many), and the chaos of the Old Gods is abhorrent. The only way left is to unmake everything - the only true order, in Sargeras' eyes.

[Deleted]

I disagree. I think that satyr quote is, unfortunately, an example of contused and inconsistent writing rather than a representation of the Old God's actual motivations.

The Burning Legion has always left nothing behind their crusade. The Velen short-story showed us a glimpse of a planet they'd been too - there was nothing left. No life. They've done the same to other worlds, and tried to do it to Azeroth. They may profess a desire for chaos and a shattering of order, but they always leave behind utter lifelessness.

Whereas the Old Gods once ruled Azeroth as a place of eternal chaos and warfare. Elementals constantly fighting, slave races like the faceless, the aqir, and whatever other creatures who might have existed, always battling one another. In the novels, we see a glimpse of a possible future where the Old Gods rule - the mountains are swarming with the tentacles of the Forgotten Ones, and the skies are filled with twilight dragons. It's a horrible nightmare, but it is filled with living beings.

I agree with the OP - the titans are a force for Order (not necessarily 'good') and the Old Gods strive for chaos - tearing down order, introducing corruption and disarray into all systems.

I see the Burning Legion as the third path - utter oblivion. Beyond order, because there are no conscious minds left to project a sense of order on to anything. This would be Sargeras' answer to the chaos he sees in the universe - the order of the titans is a lie (their mistake with the Doomguard might be only one of many), and the chaos of the Old Gods is abhorrent. The only way left is to unmake everything - the only true order, in Sargeras' eyes.

What Sargeras discovered was that the universe was in a natural state of chaos, which it is, and the Titans stood in the way of that process, which created evil.

All you have to do to see what he saw is look at the real world. Deprivation creates monsters. In order for some to have more others have to have less.

Sargeras may see the destruction of whole worlds as a small price to pay to save the universe from the Titans. Also, Sargeras isn't in command of the Legion at the moment. He is MIA.

The old gods aren't deliberately spreading chaos for the sake of it. They are self-serving and will do whatever it takes to escape. You also have to remember that they are far more intelligent than we will ever be, meaning their true motivations may never be revealed.

They might seek to unmake the entire universe for all we know. Sargeras would approach them very cautiously. The old gods would probably only see him as a means to an end anyway especially in light of the War of the Ancients trilogy.

It's not inconsistent writing. It's lore. It's Blizzard's game which means they can do whatever they want with it. IMO, they forgot their own lore a long time ago in order to make it digestible to people (making Arthas completely evil when the people of Stratholme were already zombies comes to mind). But in the beginning it seems that the old gods were here first.

[Yig]

Moorcock's Gods of Chaos vs the Gods of Law.

[Lastlivingsoul]

...
I see the Burning Legion as the third path - utter oblivion. Beyond order, because there are no conscious minds left to project a sense of order on to anything. This would be Sargeras' answer to the chaos he sees in the universe - the order of the titans is a lie (their mistake with the Doomguard might be only one of many), and the chaos of the Old Gods is abhorrent. The only way left is to unmake everything - the only true order, in Sargeras' eyes.

The one thing people keep forgetting about the Burning Legion And Sargeras was that before he was corrupted he was an Enforcer fighting evil entities throughout the galaxy. It was on the planet of the Nathrezim, a planet of vampiric telepathic necrotic aliens that Sageras first started to turn away from the Titans. The lore says that he "defeated" them but was left with doubts, depression, despair (Sound familiar.) Mind control or corruption at least.

My Theory, just as the Old Gods were the puppeteers to a power greater than there own (Deathwing), the Burning Legion is also still using Sargeras as a puppet ruler.

Further more they are known for turning nation against nation, and I can't help but think after completing "Operation: Shieldwall" and "The Dominance Offensive" that the Sunreavers were set up and that both sides KNEW Dalaran "City of Peace" would take a side.

Aethas wasn't in on this plan and clearly states in a Sha induced Rage that Garrosh will bring the horde down (Why would he then risk losing his home in Dalaran to help him.) Fanlyr Silverthorn who gets you into the city does a shit job of covering your tracks as horde. Jaina seems "different" as well. It all points to one thing.

Naz'riem Agents manipulating both Alliance and Horde into War with one another.

The Question is WHO is the Psyl.. I mean Dreadlord agent?

Speculation based on: http://www.wowwiki.com/Sargeras

[Venziir]

I cant seem to find anything that says the Titans created the Vrykul, Mogu or Doomguards. Where did you find mention of it? It was merely mentioned that the Mogu salvaged Titan technology.

The fact that they created the Vrykul is old info, it's from Wotlk. The Mogu stuff is datamined form 5.2 and the Doomguards bit is from the warlock green-fire questline.