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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Yak View Post
    Oblivion being their goal is inconsistent with their past actions, because they ruled Azeroth for who knows how many thousands of years and never brought oblivion to it. A future where they triumphed is shown where the world is back to a state of never-ending horror under their rule - again, not oblivion.

    If 'oblivion' is all of the sudden their new reason for being, then fine. But to go 'ha hah, this is really what they wanted all along!' is an unjustified direction to take things and, in my opinion, bad and inconsistent writing.

    As for Sargeras, we've never heard his motivations in his own words, we've only ever inferred them from lore materials - the same ones that indicated the nature of the Old Gods that I've been describing, in fact. And the actions of Sargeras and the Burning Legion have, thus far, only ever resulted in empty, lifeless planets, not some kind of chaotic distopia worlds. Empty and unchanging is by definition non-chaotic.

    I agree that Sargeras cares on some level and wants to put an end to chaos. I consider him to be someone who feels that the universe would be better off dead.
    The old ones think long term so what we see in the short term can't be taken as gospel. It's clear to us that they fought one another, but that doesn't surprise me when you consider what they are (highly competitive psychopathic multi-dimensional beings).

    IMO, Blizz have just left this open to change as they see fit. "Oblivion" could only be an interpretation from a particular point of view. Unmaking the universe may seem like seeking oblivion to us, but to the old gods it could be something else entirely. They could see the universe itself as a prison.

    The difference between Sargeras and the old gods is, Sargeras's goals are purely ideological. Whereas the old gods are self-serving and only care about themselves.

    In order for Sargeras to be true to his goals he'd have to remove all traces of the Titans from every world then leave them alone. But there might be other reasons; those worlds might also be a source of power for the Titans or it's impossible to remove all traces of them.

    When you consider just how many worlds there are in the universe (literally trillions), destroying a few might be considered a small price to pay if you realise just how truly evil the Titans are. They would not hesitate to reduce the world to atoms if they saw it as necessary.


    In the order versus chaos debate, people always see two extremes, when in reality, chaos is the natural state of the universe. Chaos can be a healthy thing especially for reactionary creatures like human beings who are meant to react to their environment. You take that environment away from us and we will stand still and die.

    Sargeras could not understand how such truly evil psychopathic beings could exist until he realised that we are all the product of our environment. A lot of people simply choose not to believe that, and that's why change has to be forced. Evil was created by the Titan's vision of order.

    It's a shame that Sargeras doesn't find another more peaceful way to achieve his goals, but then, it's an evil universe.
    Last edited by Garian; 2013-01-11 at 02:37 PM.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    I never said anarchy = chaos. what I meant is that old gods seemed to be content in letting people do whatever they want as long as the old gods are free from imprisonment and feeding parasitically on the world. they don't care about ruling anyone, or telling people how they should leave their lives. when they "ruled" the world, they made bug people, spider people, mantis people, mollusc people and started playing war with each other. the elements would just do whatever they wanted, as well. there were other people in the world too. trolls, tauren, et cetera. the old gods never tried to kill them for "not being old godish enough".
    I don't think the Old Gods are content in letting people live their lives. What about all the sinister scheming and manipulation, invading the minds of Azeroth's inhabitants, and telling them all this scary stuff that drives them against each other. They definitely have some evil and destructive agenda.

  3. #83
    Elemental Lord Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyHellfire View Post
    I don't think the Old Gods are content in letting people live their lives. What about all the sinister scheming and manipulation, invading the minds of Azeroth's inhabitants, and telling them all this scary stuff that drives them against each other. They definitely have some evil and destructive agenda.
    It's not about destruction or evil. It's about chaos in itself! It's neither good or evil, it's change, an enemy of both stability and stagnation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    Metzenphrenia. As defined in the DSM: "To be so badly written, that it drives the character into insanity." It's symptoms are similar to schizophrenia but even crazier.
    "There are no answers, only choices" - Solaris.

  4. #84
    Titan = Order
    Old Gods = Chaos
    Burning Legion = Rebels/Anarchist
    Mortals = Subjects to choose one of the three

  5. #85
    Stood in the Fire lucizanito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    The old gods didn't really "fight" each other to win anything, they sent their forces to fight each other just to watch them fight each other. Like people that crash hotwheels cars into one another for bugs and giggles.

    The titans cast down the old gods handedly. All Five old gods fell; among these, one was killed, and another was thought dead. The titans went 5-0 against the old gods and their armies and the elemental lords and THEIR armies.
    I think there was one Titan who actually fell or died in this case but I'm not sure if it was because of C'thun or Y'shaarj. My bet is it was Y'shaarj and the result of his death and one of the Titans own prompted them to decide that they were just going to beat them to unconsciousness and then imprison them. One Old God's "death" caused some crazy stuff on the southern regions so I'm guessing they didn't want to take chances with the remaining. Had they killed Yogg'saron it probably would've been just as bad since he was about as big as Northrend.(Maybe?)

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    It's not about destruction or evil. It's about chaos in itself! It's neither good or evil, it's change, an enemy of both stability and stagnation.
    But in this case, their chaos is not random, they lead it somewhere, somewhere bad for the rest of the living creatures of Azeroth. And that IS evil.

    Have you ever seen D&D aligment chart? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alignme...%26_Dragons%29

    Old Gods are Chaotic Evil.
    Chaotic Evil is referred to as the "Destroyer" or "Demonic" alignment. Characters of this alignment tend to have no respect for rules, other people's lives, or anything but their own desires, which are typically selfish and cruel. They set a high value on personal freedom, but do not have any regard for the lives or freedom of other people. They do not work well in groups, as they resent being given orders, and usually behave themselves only out of fear of punishment.

    Sargeras is Lawful Evil.
    Lawful Evil is referred to as the "Dominator" or "Diabolic" alignment. Characters of this alignment see a well-ordered system as being easier to exploit, and show a combination of desirable and undesirable traits; while they usually obey their superiors and keep their word, they care nothing for the rights and freedoms of other individuals and are not averse to twisting the rules to work in their favor. Examples of this alignment include tyrants, devils, undiscriminating mercenary types who have a strict code of conduct, and loyal soldiers who enjoy the act of killing.

    The Titans are Lawful Neutral.
    Lawful Neutral is called the "Judge" or "Disciplined" alignment. A Lawful Neutral character typically believes strongly in Lawful concepts such as honor, order, rules and tradition, and often follows a personal code. A Lawful Neutral society would typically enforce strict laws to maintain social order, and place a high value on traditions and historical precedent. Examples of Lawful Neutral characters might include a soldier who always follows orders, a judge or enforcer that adheres mercilessly to the word of the law, and a disciplined monk.
    English is not my first language, feel free to correct any mistake I may make.

  7. #87
    Elemental Lord Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulwind View Post
    But in this case, their chaos is not random, they lead it somewhere, somewhere bad for the rest of the living creatures of Azeroth. And that IS evil.

    Have you ever seen D&D aligment chart? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alignme...%26_Dragons%29

    Old Gods are Chaotic Evil.
    Chaotic Evil is referred to as the "Destroyer" or "Demonic" alignment. Characters of this alignment tend to have no respect for rules, other people's lives, or anything but their own desires, which are typically selfish and cruel. They set a high value on personal freedom, but do not have any regard for the lives or freedom of other people. They do not work well in groups, as they resent being given orders, and usually behave themselves only out of fear of punishment.

    Sargeras is Lawful Evil.
    Lawful Evil is referred to as the "Dominator" or "Diabolic" alignment. Characters of this alignment see a well-ordered system as being easier to exploit, and show a combination of desirable and undesirable traits; while they usually obey their superiors and keep their word, they care nothing for the rights and freedoms of other individuals and are not averse to twisting the rules to work in their favor. Examples of this alignment include tyrants, devils, undiscriminating mercenary types who have a strict code of conduct, and loyal soldiers who enjoy the act of killing.

    The Titans are Lawful Neutral.
    Lawful Neutral is called the "Judge" or "Disciplined" alignment. A Lawful Neutral character typically believes strongly in Lawful concepts such as honor, order, rules and tradition, and often follows a personal code. A Lawful Neutral society would typically enforce strict laws to maintain social order, and place a high value on traditions and historical precedent. Examples of Lawful Neutral characters might include a soldier who always follows orders, a judge or enforcer that adheres mercilessly to the word of the law, and a disciplined monk.
    It's not D&D. And not everything falls under such classification. In 4th edition they reduced it to lawful good, good, neutral, evil, and chaotic evil IIRC. Also, Old Gods weren't designed with this standart in mind. They turned us from machines to flesh, whether it's good or bad. I perceive it as a jest and tend to liken them more to Tzeentch from Warhammer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    Metzenphrenia. As defined in the DSM: "To be so badly written, that it drives the character into insanity." It's symptoms are similar to schizophrenia but even crazier.
    "There are no answers, only choices" - Solaris.

  8. #88
    The gods of Warhammer aren't a bad comparison.

    The Old Gods don't much care how the game goes, as long as they stay in charge.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    We do know way too little about the titans motives and reasons for wanting their order.

    Sure you can label them as intolerant dictators, but what if their order is actually the best thing for all involved? Still bad Dictator?
    still its obvious the titans will be villains. the trope is a common one in scifi comics tv fantasy. omni powerful beings almost robotic and emotionless in their ways that go around "fixing" people or planets and believe only their way is the right way and need to be stopped or "shown" that a little bit of chaos can be a good thing.

    i mean look at azeroth the old gods are almost free, their minions while beaten back are rebuilding, the "ecosystem" has been "contaminated" with things like demons orcs and draenei. the original seed races are almost all "malfunctioned" not to mention the fact that the well is broken and the world has been blown up not once but twice

    the titans would take one look at this planet and say "re-origination re-origination RE-ORIGINATION"
    "I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
    "so what do we do?" "well jack, you stand there and say 'gee rocket raccoon I'm so glad you brought that Unfeasibly large cannon with you..' and i go like this BRAKKA BRAKKA BRAKKA" - Rocket Raccoon

    FC: 3437-3046-3552

  10. #90
    I'm so sick of this tired, ill-informed argument.

    The Pantheon is lawful neutral with good tendencies. They re-originate planets only when they've 'deviated' so far from the plan that it has become a danger to itself and others. A world teeming with Old God corruption, for example.
    By Blood and Honor We Serve!

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Lightfist View Post
    A world teeming with Old God corruption, for example.
    Sounds like Azeroth to me.

    Most beings on azeroth have been corrupted in one way or the other.

  12. #92
    Over 9000! Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylf View Post
    Sounds like Azeroth to me.

    Most beings on azeroth have been corrupted in one way or the other.
    Except we "proved" to the Pantheon (or algalon, at least) that we have enough pluck and moxy to potentially defeat the Old Gods in ways the Titans could not.

    Hence why Algalon deemed us "not blow-upable"
    "Do not look down, my friend. Even in the darkest of times, there is always hope... Hope for a better day, hope for a new dawn... Or just hope for a good breakfast. You start small, then see what you can get." ~ Covetous Shen
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Except we "proved" to the Pantheon (or algalon, at least) that we have enough pluck and moxy to potentially defeat the Old Gods in ways the Titans could not.

    Hence why Algalon deemed us "not blow-upable"
    There is a good chance that Algalon, now turned into emotional wreck, is deemed corrupted by titans and promptly destroyed, forcing them to investigate what the hell happened.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Except we "proved" to the Pantheon (or algalon, at least) that we have enough pluck and moxy to potentially defeat the Old Gods in ways the Titans could not.

    Hence why Algalon deemed us "not blow-upable"
    Algalons "new view" on mortals has not much to do with Yogg-sarons Defeat.

    It is rather the fact the we were able to beat him despite the fact that his calculation told him that he would win.

    If it had something to do with Yogg-sarons defeat, the Encounter wouldn't make any sense, why should we beat him up to realise that we defeated Yogg-saron?


    Algalon is now searching for answers because he trusted blindly his calculation and now they were proven wrong and his entire view on the universe is pretty much out of place.
    Too often, we are mistaken for druidic types. perhaps that's true for some shaman, but do not let yourself be plagued by the ignorant belief that we are always peaceful.
    Nothing about what I do is harmonious. I command the elements to my will. There is nothing offered in return. I would have it no other way.


    Never assume an ogre's stupid, that's when they'll get you.

  15. #95
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    Anarchy ≠ Chaos. It means lack of permanent central authority. A council of – mad – gods isn't exactly lack of authority…

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Kryss View Post
    Anarchy ≠ Chaos. It means lack of permanent central authority. A council of – mad – gods isn't exactly lack of authority…
    why? as was said many times, the old gods don't rule. they just feed. the only reason they are manipulating the mortal races and the black dragons right now is because they want to get out of jail.

    why do you think the qiraji, the nerubians and the mantid had emperors of their own? it's because the old gods don't rule. they are merely their religion, not their leaders.
    Warlorcs of Draenorc made me quit. You can't have my stuff.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    why? as was said many times, the old gods don't rule. they just feed. the only reason they are manipulating the mortal races and the black dragons right now is because they want to get out of jail.

    why do you think the qiraji, the nerubians and the mantid had emperors of their own? it's because the old gods don't rule. they are merely their religion, not their leaders.
    Anarchy is based on freedom, mind controlling people is everything but freedom. Just because we don't know Old Gods agenda doesn't mean they don't have one. In fact, I'd say their efforts prove they pursue something, and if they need to drive their minions crazy before they join them, I'd also say it's something really, really evil, something no sane living being would want to happen.
    English is not my first language, feel free to correct any mistake I may make.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Soulwind View Post
    Anarchy is based on freedom, mind controlling people is everything but freedom. Just because we don't know Old Gods agenda doesn't mean they don't have one. In fact, I'd say their efforts prove they pursue something, and if they need to drive their minions crazy before they join them, I'd also say it's something really, really evil, something no sane living being would want to happen.
    Sanity is based on the point of view.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Sanity is based on the point of view.
    Let's put it this way, death is something objectively bad for every living creature. Trying to force the end of the world is something bad for yourself and everybody else except the Old Gods. That is insane.
    English is not my first language, feel free to correct any mistake I may make.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Soulwind View Post
    Let's put it this way, death is something objectively bad for every living creature. Trying to force the end of the world is something bad for yourself and everybody else except the Old Gods. That is insane.
    Unless there is something after death, something that frail mortal brains cant comprehend.

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