[Disc/Holy] T15 2P/4P bonus

[Fenixdown]

The unglyphed PoM doesn't heal 4 times it heals 5 (initial + 4 bounces) and the unglyphed doesn't heal 5 times it heals 6 (initial + 5 bounces) so it looks like this:

Glyphed + 2p = 160% + 110% + 120% + 130% + 140% = 660%
Unglyphed + 2p = 100% + 110% + 120% + 130% + 140% + 150% = 750%

Glyphed without 2p = 160% + 100% + 100% + 100% + 100% = 560%
Unglyphed without 2p = 100 + 100% + 100% + 100% + 100% + 100% = 600%

Unglyphed remains better unless the healing from first heal when glyphed gets inherited by subsequent bounce heals, which i don't think will happen.

Also, thank you. I always forget to factor in that PoM heals one additional time after it lands on it's final target. I always just count the pings as heals. Lol.

So, yeah...vastly more than double the healing from the 2-pc bonus. If that's just "okay", then next you're gonna tell me making each charge of Lightspring an automatic Lay on Hands would be "underwhelming".

[Kaesebrezen]

So, yeah...vastly more than double the healing from the 2-pc bonus.

Um.. Where exactly do you get more than the double?

It's healing for the value of one additional bounce more glyphed, and 1,5 bounces unglyphed.

[Deleted]

Also, thank you. I always forget to factor in that PoM heals one additional time after it lands on it's final target. I always just count the pings as heals. Lol.

So, yeah...vastly more than double the healing from the 2-pc bonus. If that's just "okay", then next you're gonna tell me making each charge of Lightspring an automatic Lay on Hands would be "underwhelming".

Either you are smoking something, and if so I really want to know what, or you're failing incredibly hard at third grade math.

[Fenixdown]

Either you are smoking something, and if so I really want to know what, or you're failing incredibly hard at third grade math.

10% + 20% +30% +40% + 50% = ?

Not counting the possibility of multiplicative increases, tell me how much of an increase that is and then tell me who's not doing the math right.

[Deleted]

10% + 20% +30% +40% + 50% = ?

Not counting the possibility of multiplicative increases, tell me how much of an increase that is and then tell me who's not doing the math right.

The bonus is a 25% increase (unglyphed), you're welcome. I honestly can't do anything but pity you if you can't figure out how wrong you are.

[Whitney Houston]

How is 100% of one bounce a 100% increase to the healing pom will do?

Definitely some shifty math there. I think its closer to a 25% increase, which is on the surface, similar to our amazing T9 2P tier bonus. Except that outside of fights like Heroic Will of Emperors, it is extremely unlikely that all charges of PoM are fully utilised, especially with their tendency to bounce to low hp players that will not be receiving any more incoming damage. Furthermore, most healers are likely to refresh PoM on the tanks on CD without taking much consideration into the amount of charges left. That said, the 2P bonus is not an extremely terrible bonus, although I feel that a mana regen tier bonus will be more useful.

Our 4P bonus sounds great on paper, a 100k smart heal every 10 seconds which will boost our rather poor spot healing. However the description suggests that they function like a shadowy apparition which heals instead. To those healers who never ever dps, this is a fun spell which works like spriest's shadowy apparitions, which is a misnomer as the spell does not actually work at all.

As usual, our bonuses look good in theory, especially to people that do not actually play the class. Though I suspect due to repeated past disappointments, most of us will be extremely satisfied with a 1% boost in actual healing performance, instead of highly situational or gimmicky tier bonuses.

[snaxattax]

To those healers who never ever dps, this is a fun spell which works like spriest's shadowy apparitions, which is a misnomer as the spell does not actually work at all.

finally made me lol instead of rage over how bad the shadow set bonuses are. the healer ones are pretty bad, too... both sets of tier bonuses seem like they're going to be weaker than t14 in almost every situation. maybe we can bribe the goblins to retrofit our apparitions with some rocket boots?

[immergruen]

10% + 20% +30% +40% + 50% = ?

forgive me, but you may be forgetting what that % is of. You are adding up "percentage of a single heal" and then ascribing it to the "percentage of the overall spell", which is 5 heals unglyphed or 4 heals glyphed.

for simplicity sake, let's put in a fictitious amount healed of 100hp each time it is triggered.

(5 stacks) -> (4 stacks with 10% bonus) -> (3 stacks with 20% bonus) -> (2 stacks with 30% bonus) -> (1 stack with 40% bonus) -> dropped.
100hp heal on trigger -> 110 hp heal on trigger -> 120 hp heal on trigger -> 130 hp heal on trigger -> 140hp heal on trigger -> dropped. Total healed was 600hp. That is an extra 100hp over 5 heals (essentially a sixth hop of unmodified PoM) which makes it a 100% increase of a single heal, not the whole spell.

[Holygrail]

Forgive me if I'm wrong but is it not (for unglyphed):

First Bounce:
100%

Second:
100*1.1=110%

Third:
110*1.1=121%

Fourth:
121*1.1=133.1%

Fifth:
133.1*1.1=146.41%


So, taking the %increase per tick:
10 + 21 + 33.1 + 46.41 = 110.51

(110.51/500)*100 = 22% increase to the total healing done per PoM.

I'd assume the set bonus is a cumulative increase.

[Fenixdown]

forgive me, but you may be forgetting what that % is of. You are adding up "percentage of a single heal" and then ascribing it to the "percentage of the overall spell", which is 5 heals unglyphed or 4 heals glyphed.

for simplicity sake, let's put in a fictitious amount healed of 100hp each time it is triggered.

(5 stacks) -> (4 stacks with 10% bonus) -> (3 stacks with 20% bonus) -> (2 stacks with 30% bonus) -> (1 stack with 40% bonus) -> dropped.
100hp heal on trigger -> 110 hp heal on trigger -> 120 hp heal on trigger -> 130 hp heal on trigger -> 140hp heal on trigger -> dropped. Total healed was 600hp. That is an extra 100hp over 5 heals (essentially a sixth hop of unmodified PoM) which makes it a 100% increase of a single heal, not the whole spell.

You are correct. I did miss a key step in my calculations. My apologies. However, even with that said, given how much PoM already heals for I still think the 2-pc is quite impressive.

I will say that I hope the 4-pc works better than some may suspect. I know some have the complaint on it being tied to Penance, but you have to think of the reasons why. There's no other real signature spell to tie it to that is cast constantly, and they want the 4-pc bonuses it seems to be tied to signature spells. They could start tying them to talents (like making set bonuses that work off of Chastise, Halo, and Divine Star), but that could get too complex given each has completely different functionality and cooldown timers. Penance and CoH are both relatively on par with each other for their cooldown time (though CoH can be reduced due to Chakra : Sanctuary), and both are the signature spells of their specs.

If it does move like a standard Apparition, then yes, it will usually end up being a massive overheal. Though, in counterpoint, it is a free of mana cost overheal, so it's not like it's a drastic detriment. Hopefully it moves more like at the speed of any other spell in terms of travel time, perhaps looking more like a ghostly shape than a clone of your character.

[KidCanuck]

We don't know yet if it's an additive or multiplicative increase, so everyone calm down! My guess is additive (10, 20, 30, 40, 50).

As for the 4pc, since people tend to be lazy, I'd guess it'll be the exact same functionality as the shadow version, but glowing instead of shadowy, and healing instead of damage. As has been said, I would much prefer the T12 model.

[Deleted]

If it's any consolation for you: the other healers' set bonuses aren't that great either.

[Deleted]

The set bonuses do feel stronger for holy - not that I mind it, and as, somebody already mentioned it, they are great compared to the t14 set bonuses - which I personally didnt bother with (I get to maybe use 5 flashes in a full raid IF the tank is dying, but otherwise..no. I have plenty of raids with 0 casts of flash. Alongside with Heal, its the spell I close to never use).

About the t15 bonuses:

1. the 2p setbonus. Due to DI, holy has a much higher use of PoM (its often my top healing spell when I play holy). DI not only gives a lot more casts, but those PoMs actually tick 5 times guaranteed - which means a full 10% increase on the procs. For disc, PoM does often end up dead on a target that just doesn't take dmg. I dont know for sure, but is PoM still affected by the +healing buff to sanctuary? The setbonus does for me make choosing DI an even more "mandatory" (though I personally already love it) - but since with that talent pom is my top heal, its a straight buff to my highest output.

2. the 4p setbonus - I agree with the parallel between penance/coh being a bit meh sometimes. The majority of the intense healing moments nowadays is aoe dmg, which makes penance less likely to be used on cd than coh. You also need a glyph to make penance viable for moving times - which again can decrease its use.

There is a category of disc game play that can make the most out of the 4p set bonus - and that is atonement healing. Since smiting decreases the cd of penance, 4xsmite will decrease it to 8 seconds (same as coh in sanctuary).
We'd go penance/holy fire/6xsmite> penance off cd 3 seconds earlier. Sure, normally we dont keep so much smite spamming, and we weave in a PWS, which makes a 2 sec reduction more likely to happen - but that still implies a heavy use of smite just to get penance on same cd as coh gets it passively from chakra.

I'm curious about the proc chance on the spells: is it based on penance ball/each target heal for coh? As in, does it have a chance on 3 balls and 5/6 targets healed to proc, or is it for each individual heal (making it possible to proc more on coh that basically produces 5/6 heals)?

[Deleted]

I have to say that I never had set bonus gear in current tier raids. This week was first week I got any tier token since the start of pandaria (clearing all bosses available every week). How many of you can say you'll get it or did get it?

Why such issue about how good is it when you can't get it in first place? Maybe it's just me and RNG. Clearly, what ever bonuses are, it doesn't mean they are needed in first place.

[Deleted]

I think it's just you and RNG :P. I refused to roll on tokens because it looked like a waste for me, and I preferred the other classes to get them to actually use them. I still currently have 4 piece set if I want to (reckon helm is lfr, but I've passed on helms for others a lot) and 2-3 pieces of shadow tier (which I never use, I dont even have a shadow spec). Since hc tokens are highly sought atm in my guild (we didnt get so many hc kills with those), I'm happy to keep my off-set hc pieces, since the set bonuses give me nothing: I dont use flash, and penance isn't one of my top heals, it cant be in a 25 man setting.

[Fenixdown]

Confirmed by Blizzard that the 2-pc is multiplicative.

"The Healing 2pc causes each Prayer of Mending Heal to heal for 10% more than the last; it’s multiplicative. 100%->110%->121%->133%->146%."

Unless they're also stating through that quote that it will not work with the glyph, then the glyph just became an incredible throughput increase.

[Holygrail]

Unless they're also stating through that quote that it will not work with the glyph, then the glyph just became an incredible throughput increase.

Making the Unglyphed PoM without the 2-Set T15 do "100%" healing.

Glyphed PoM without 2-Set would do:
First Bounce:
160%
Second:
100%
Third:
100%
Fourth:
100%
Fifth:
100%

(560/600)*100 = 93% healing of a standard PoM
Thus a 7% reduction in healing done.


For the Unglyphed PoM with 2-Set:
First Bounce:
100%
Second:
100*1.1=110%
Third:
110*1.1=121%
Fourth:
121*1.1=133.1%
Fifth:
133.1*1.1=146.41%
Sixth:
146.41*1.1=161.051%

(771.56/600)*100 = 128.6% of a normal PoM
29% increase in healing done.


Now remember the Glyph states:
"The first charge of your Prayer of Mending heals for an additional 60% but your Prayer of Mending has 1 fewer charges."
This means only the first charge will gain a benefit and will return to normal afterwards. Leading to...

For a Glyphed PoM with 2-Set:
First Bounce:
160%
Second:
100*1.1=110%
Third:
110*1.1=121%
Fourth:
121*1.1=133.1%
Fifth:
133.1*1.1=146.41%

(670.51/600)*100 = 111.75% of normal PoM
11.8% increase in healing done.


Your statement of "glyph just became an incredible throughput increase" is false. This 2-Set considerably reduces the value of the Glyph.

[Deleted]

the 2pc is worded a little awkwardly. does it increase the heal 'when' it bounces or the heal after it has bounced?
the tweet would suggest after it bounces - which contradicts the wording on the bonus.

eg, unglpyhed. 5 bounces, 6 heals.

amount healed compared to without setbonus;
100% - 110% - 121% - 133% - 146% - 161% = +28.5% on the cast?

OR

110% - 121% - 133% - 146% - 161% - 177% = +41.3% on the cast?

OR

110% - 121% - 133% - 146% - 161% - 100%(since it's not a bounce) = +28.5% on the cast? - whilst this is the same overall gain as the first scenario, it changes how it will interact with the glyph

Quite a big difference.

[Holygrail]

does it increase the heal 'when' it bounces or the heal after it has bounced?

From a Blue Post:
The Healing 2pc causes each Prayer of Mending Heal to heal for 10% more than the last; it’s multiplicative. 100%->110%->121%->133%->146%.
So after it first heals.

[simland]

The real question is how is it coded. ;-) Because based on literal interpretation you could conceive the following with the glyph:

160%->176%->194%->213%

Now wouldn't that be nice :-).